Winchester 95 in 30-06 - since when?

[SteveR]

and the bottom is a 19-teens original Winchester 1895 in 30-06):
Noah

I never heard that the 1895 was factory chambered in 30-06. I recall reading PO Ackley said the action was to soft for the 30-06 and the caused bolt set-back.

Could it be re chambered after the leaving the factory?

Steve

My bad, they did offer later in a factory chambering.

Steve

[jd45]

SteveR, I recently read where it was the pre-WWI 1895s chambered in .30-06 that had problems, but with what was learned during the war regarding tempering & heat treating, Winchester was able to build em strong enough so that they could withstand the punishment from the high pressure cartridges like the .30-06, etc. jd45

[SteveR]

SteveR, I recently read where it was the pre-WWI 1895s chambered in .30-06 that had problems, but with what was learned during the war regarding tempering & heat treating, Winchester was able to build em strong enough so that they could withstand the punishment from the high pressure cartridges like the .30-06, etc. jd45

Thank you for the info, that clears up my confusion.

Steve

[AmBraCol]

and the bottom is a 19-teens original Winchester 1895 in 30-06):
Noah

I never heard that the 1895 was factory chambered in 30-06. I recall reading PO Ackley said the action was to soft for the 30-06 and the caused bolt set-back.

Could it be re chambered after the leaving the factory?

Steve

My bad, they did offer later in a factory chambering.

Steve

Theodore and Kermit Roosevelt were in Africa hunting right after he left the presidency (Theodore, not Kermit) and the list of rifles in their battery includes a Winchester in "Army caliber" (which at that point would have been the '06). They spent a year trekking around equatorial Africa and put a lot of ammo through their rifles.

[SteveR]

and the bottom is a 19-teens original Winchester 1895 in 30-06):
Noah

I never heard that the 1895 was factory chambered in 30-06. I recall reading PO Ackley said the action was to soft for the 30-06 and the caused bolt set-back.

Could it be re chambered after the leaving the factory?

Steve

My bad, they did offer later in a factory chambering.

Steve

Theodore and Kermit Roosevelt were in Africa hunting right after he left the presidency (Theodore, not Kermit) and the list of rifles in their battery includes a Winchester in "Army caliber" (which at that point would have been the '06). They spent a year trekking around equatorial Africa and put a lot of ammo through their rifles.

I am not doubting you, but it could have also been the 30-40 Krag, that was known as the "Army" also at that time.
Was the 30-06 being chambered at that time? That would 1909, that is only 3 years after the 30-06 was introduced.

Steve

[AmBraCol]

I am not doubting you, but it could have also been the 30-40 Krag, that was known as the "Army" also at that time.
Was the 30-06 being chambered at that time? That would 1909, that is only 3 years after the 30-06 was introduced.

Steve

Here's the quote from his book:

My rifles were an army Springfield, 30 Caliber, stocked and sighted to suit myself; a Winchester 405; and a double-barreled 500-450 Holland, a beautiful weapon presented to me by some English friends.

Kermit's battery was of the same type, except that instead of a Springfield he had another Winchester, shooting the army ammunition, and his double-barrel was a Rigby. In addition I had a Fox No. 12 shotgun; no better gun was ever made

Now there you have it - clear as mud. Both statements as to Kirby's rifle could be taken in different ways. "instead of a Springfield he had another Winchester" - one would assume it was the same model as the 405, but did Winchester make another repeater at that time? and "shooting the army ammunition" does not specify 30 caliber or even "new" or "old". Also, how did they find out that the '95 wasn't up to the task? My best guess is that they'd chambered a few and it simply didn't work out over the long run - until they learned to better heat treat. It MIGHT be that it was indeed a 30-40 - the OTHER 30 Army Round, but from African Trails it's hard to come down on either side. Until I see other evidence, I have the tendency to come down on the side of commonality of ammunition between both the father's and the son's rifles. That's the impression I get from reading the book. Now I'm curious as to the other reference to these rifles - the trek down a Brazilian river in which the rifle was lost in a canoe accident. Don't recall if it was the father's lion medicine or the son's rifle, much less that caliber.

[Les Staley]

Prolly the earliest "tragic boating accident" recorded...way before the ATF or FBI...wonder what they were hiding.....

[hfcable]

The 1895 was offered very early in the 30/03 predecessor of the 30/06 and the 30/06 and 30/40 we're common in the 1895; and Roosevelt had the 1895 in 405 with him in Africa. I believe that was the rifle he called his Big Medicine rifle.

[SteveR]

I am not doubting you, but it could have also been the 30-40 Krag, that was known as the "Army" also at that time.
Was the 30-06 being chambered at that time? That would 1909, that is only 3 years after the 30-06 was introduced.

Steve

Here's the quote from his book:

My rifles were an army Springfield, 30 Caliber, stocked and sighted to suit myself; a Winchester 405; and a double-barreled 500-450 Holland, a beautiful weapon presented to me by some English friends.

Kermit's battery was of the same type, except that instead of a Springfield he had another Winchester, shooting the army ammunition, and his double-barrel was a Rigby. In addition I had a Fox No. 12 shotgun; no better gun was ever made

Now there you have it - clear as mud. Both statements as to Kirby's rifle could be taken in different ways. "instead of a Springfield he had another Winchester" - one would assume it was the same model as the 405, but did Winchester make another repeater at that time? and "shooting the army ammunition" does not specify 30 caliber or even "new" or "old". Also, how did they find out that the '95 wasn't up to the task? My best guess is that they'd chambered a few and it simply didn't work out over the long run - until they learned to better heat treat. It MIGHT be that it was indeed a 30-40 - the OTHER 30 Army Round, but from African Trails it's hard to come down on either side. Until I see other evidence, I have the tendency to come down on the side of commonality of ammunition between both the father's and the son's rifles. That's the impression I get from reading the book. Now I'm curious as to the other reference to these rifles - the trek down a Brazilian river in which the rifle was lost in a canoe accident. Don't recall if it was the father's lion medicine or the son's rifle, much less that caliber.

I read on Wikipedia that it was a Springfield 1903, in 3006, that they used on the exposition. The 1895 was in 405, amazing amount of game was taken during that hunt!

Steve

[AmBraCol]

I am not doubting you, but it could have also been the 30-40 Krag, that was known as the "Army" also at that time.
Was the 30-06 being chambered at that time? That would 1909, that is only 3 years after the 30-06 was introduced.

Steve

Here's the quote from his book:

My rifles were an army Springfield, 30 Caliber, stocked and sighted to suit myself; a Winchester 405; and a double-barreled 500-450 Holland, a beautiful weapon presented to me by some English friends.

Kermit's battery was of the same type, except that instead of a Springfield he had another Winchester, shooting the army ammunition, and his double-barrel was a Rigby. In addition I had a Fox No. 12 shotgun; no better gun was ever made

Now there you have it - clear as mud. Both statements as to Kirby's rifle could be taken in different ways. "instead of a Springfield he had another Winchester" - one would assume it was the same model as the 405, but did Winchester make another repeater at that time? and "shooting the army ammunition" does not specify 30 caliber or even "new" or "old". Also, how did they find out that the '95 wasn't up to the task? My best guess is that they'd chambered a few and it simply didn't work out over the long run - until they learned to better heat treat. It MIGHT be that it was indeed a 30-40 - the OTHER 30 Army Round, but from African Trails it's hard to come down on either side. Until I see other evidence, I have the tendency to come down on the side of commonality of ammunition between both the father's and the son's rifles. That's the impression I get from reading the book. Now I'm curious as to the other reference to these rifles - the trek down a Brazilian river in which the rifle was lost in a canoe accident. Don't recall if it was the father's lion medicine or the son's rifle, much less that caliber.

I read on Wikipedia that it was a Springfield 1903, in 3006, that they used on the exposition. The 1895 was in 405, amazing amount of game was taken during that hunt!

Steve

Wikipedia? Are you serious? THE WORLD AUTHORITY ON EVERYTHING???

I just quoted you directly from the book. Theodore had the Springfield and the Winchester in 405. KERMIT, on the other hand, had "another Winchester, shooting the Army ammunition". They each had their own rifles, did not share the same battery, and Kermit's Winchester WAS NOT the 405. It was some variety of 30 caliber. At that point it would have been one of three - 30-40, 30-03 or 30-06 (in terms of chronological appearance on the sporting scene). Roosevelt's account in "African Trails" doesn't make it clear WHICH of the Army rounds Kermit used - but it was one of the above listed options. At this point in time the Winchester 1895 was offered (or had been offered) in all three, according to the article posted right on leverguns.com http://www.leverguns.com/articles/model_1895.htm A direct quote from the article indicates "Much, perhaps most, of the early sporting use of the .30-06 was in Model 1895's."

[Malamute]

Yes, its clear as mud from the quotes.

The 30-40's were marked 30 US and I believe 30 Army?. The 30-03 was marked 30 gov 03 and the 06's were marked 30 gov 06. They may have marked them otherwise, and differently at different times, but that's my recollection from the ones I've seen. Sheds no light on the discussion at hand though. Once Roosevelt mentioned the Army Springfield, which we know to the an 03, the info gets cloudy.

[SteveR]

Wikipedia? Are you serious? THE WORLD AUTHORITY ON EVERYTHING???

I just quoted you directly from the book. Theodore had the Springfield and the Winchester in 405. KERMIT, on the other hand, had "another Winchester, shooting the Army ammunition". They each had their own rifles, did not share the same battery, and Kermit's Winchester WAS NOT the 405. It was some variety of 30 caliber. At that point it would have been one of three - 30-40, 30-03 or 30-06 (in terms of chronological appearance on the sporting scene). Roosevelt's account in "African Trails" doesn't make it clear WHICH of the Army rounds Kermit used - but it was one of the above listed options. At this point in time the Winchester 1895 was offered (or had been offered) in all three, according to the article posted right on leverguns.com http://www.leverguns.com/articles/model_1895.htm A direct quote from the article indicates "Much, perhaps most, of the early sporting use of the .30-06 was in Model 1895's."

LOL, yes they suck me in sometimes, but this has got me interested in find out more. I will have to do more digging around.

Steve

[SteveR]

Yes, its clear as mud from the quotes.

The 30-40's were marked 30 US and I believe 30 Army?. The 30-03 was marked 30 gov 03 and the 06's were marked 30 gov 06. They may have marked them otherwise, and differently at different times, but that's my recollection from the ones I've seen. Sheds no light on the discussion at hand though. Once Roosevelt mentioned the Army Springfield, which we know to the an 03, the info gets cloudy.

It does add some very good information, I think I will look at other peoples writings and see what terminology they used at that time, early 1900's/

Steve

[AmBraCol]

Kermit's rifle was in all likelihood a 30-40. It had phenomenal penetration according to some of the accounts in African Trails - and that's where the 30-40 shines. However, this does not take away from the fact that the '06 was chambered in the '95's prior to their trip. How did Winchester KNOW that there was bolt setback, etc in the '95 when chambered in the 30 caliber of 1906? Because they done went there and done did that and learned their lesson and improved their product.

[AmBraCol]

I'll amend my statement above about Kermit's rifle to say "Kermit's rifle mentioned in his father's list in African Trails was in all likelihood a 30-40" - because he also had (it turns out) a 405 which is not mentioned in his father's statements about their firearms in "African Trails".

Here's a statement from chapter 8 of "The River Of Doubt", Roosevelt's book about their adventures in exploring the "River of Doubt" with Rondon.
<quote> Kermit clutched his rifle, his favorite 405 Winchester with which he had done most of his hunting both in Africa and America, and climbed on the bottom of the upset boat. In a minute he was swept into the second series of rapids, and whirled away from the rolling boat, losing his rifle.</quote>

Now I need to go back and re-read some of the excerpts from African Trails where he mentions Kermit's shooting. There is no mention (that I can recall) of the 405 in that book. Curious indeed.

[harry]

http://sangamoncorifleassociation.org/p ... ridge.html

In 1903 we stole the Mauser action from the Germans, modified it slightly and manufactured it as the US rifle 1903. It is a rip-off of the Mauser system for which we had to pay Mauser three million dollars in patent infringement. The first couple thousand 1903's that came out actually had a bayonet that looked like a cleaning rod underneath the barrel. You pressed a button and the rod would come out. If you have one of these rifles you can retire now as they are very valuable. It was chambered for the cartridge caliber .30 1903 rimless. The Krag had a rim on it which tended to hang up. The 1903 cartridge still had a 220 grain round nose bullet going at nominally 1220 feet per second, a big heavy hitting round nose bullet that did not shoot very flat. It was a different cartridge than the 30.06 so if you get an old rifle like the Winchester that is marked 30 government, it could be three different cartridges. It could be a 30-40 Krag, it could be a 30.03 or a 30.06. The 30.03 had a longer shoulder and a shorter neck. You cannot shoot 30.06's in a 30.03 rifle. If you try to fit 30-03 brass in a 30-06, the neck ends up being way too short. If you have a 30-03 rifle this is a collector's item not a shooters item unless you are absolutely obsessive about your loading. Then you can go ahead and shoot it if you want to. The first Springfields were 30-03.

Three years later after testing next to the British SLME, the ordnance board decided they had adopted a rifle system that was excellent with ammunition that was already obsolete by 1903 standards. They realized that if they did what the Germans and the British already did, in putting a lighter weight bullet with a pointed nose and a more aerodynamic profile. they could gain an extra two to three hundred yards of effective range and shoot much flatter. In 1906 the ordnance board ordered that all 1903 rifles be rechambered for the new cartridge which is called the caliber .30 of 1906, shortened by civilian nomenclature to 30-06 which is what we know as the venerable 30.06 cartridge that we have today.

[Griff]

Yes, its clear as mud from the quotes.
The 30-40's were marked 30 US and I believe 30 Army?. The 30-03 was marked 30 gov 03 and the 06's were marked 30 gov 06. They may have marked them otherwise, and differently at different times, but that's my recollection from the ones I've seen. Sheds no light on the discussion at hand though. Once Roosevelt mentioned the Army Springfield, which we know to the an 03, the info gets cloudy.

This is my understanding as well. Even the early 1903s weren't considered safe with the -'06 round. It's quite possible they were both using -'03 ammo. I don't know that the Springfield was ever chambered in the 30 Army.

[7.62 Precision]

. . . if you get an old rifle like the Winchester that is marked 30 government, it could be three different cartridges. It could be a 30-40 Krag, it could be a 30.03 or a 30.06.

Winchester marked the three chamberings distinctly.

In the common use of the day, .30 Army would almost always refer to .3o-40 Krag, even after the advent of the '03 and '06.

There is a list of the guns taken on the trip somewhere, I just don't remember where to find it.

[AJMD429]

Prolly the earliest "tragic boating accident" recorded...way before the ATF or FBI...wonder what they were hiding.....

Kermit clutched his rifle, his favorite 405 Winchester with which he had done most of his hunting both in Africa and America, and climbed on the bottom of the upset boat. In a minute he was swept into the second series of rapids, and whirled away from the rolling boat, losing his rifle.

It is interesting to read of Teddy Roosevelt's adventures, and to speculate how much better and more daring our current president will likely be when he retires and goes on safari.

[Griff]

Prolly the earliest "tragic boating accident" recorded...way before the ATF or FBI...wonder what they were hiding.....

Kermit clutched his rifle, his favorite 405 Winchester with which he had done most of his hunting both in Africa and America, and climbed on the bottom of the upset boat. In a minute he was swept into the second series of rapids, and whirled away from the rolling boat, losing his rifle.

It is interesting to read of Teddy Roosevelt's adventures, and to speculate how much better and more daring our current president will likely be when he retires and goes on safari.

Just in case the NSA is listening, I won't make a comment.

As for your two quotes... I always wondered whether there was another side to JimT's trip to Africa... (I know, unwarranted, mean-spirited.... but in my small mind, it was funny)!

[Charles]

The original pre-war Winchester 95s were indeed chambered for 30-40, 30-03 and 30-06. Pressures above 45,000 psi (copper crusher) could prove problematic in these rifles. Most of the factory and military loads were OK and within these limits. Still caution should be observed with these old rifles.

The newer Japchester 95s have no problem digesting modern 30-06 loads.

[airedaleman]

Possibly the worst blow to the 1895 was the occasional use of 8mm Mauser ammunition in them by returning WWI vets. Belive Sharpe mentions this in The Complete Guide to Handloading.

[hfcable]

Possibly the worst blow to the 1895 was the occasional use of 8mm Mauser ammunition in them by returning WWI vets. Belive Sharpe mentions this in The Complete Guide to Handloading.

i have seen several articles mentioning this.

[markinalpine]

According to the Winchester Pocket Guide, ©2004, Ned Schwing, pp 80-81, "The Model 1895 was available in the following calibers: .30-40 Krag, .38-72 Winchester, .40-72 Winchester, .303 British, .35 Winchester, .405 Government, 7.62 Russian, .30-03, and .30-06."

Mark

EDIT:
Took some time to look up a few more things.
The NRA made a video about the 1895 in .405: http://www.americanrifleman.org/videos/ ... 95-405-win , and if you listen to the narrator at about 7:10, he mentions that Miroku started making the 1895 (doesn't mention dates, though) in 30-06, and .270. The .30-06 sold, but the .270 didn't, so Miroku remade some of them in .405, and these did sell.
From the 35th Edition og Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values, ©2014, page 2216
The Model 1895 Rifle Flatside was made from 1895 to 1896 in .38-72 and .40-72.
The Model 1895 Rifle was made from 1896 to 1931 in .30-03, .30-06, .30-40 Krag, .303 British, .35 Win., .38-72, .40-72, .405 Win., 7.62 Russian.
Model 1895 Carbine, .30 US (.30-40 Krag), .30-03, .30-06, or .303 Brit.
This is my truncated copy from the Blue Book. Notice that the .30-40 Krag is also called the .30 US.
Mark

[Noah Zark]

SteveR:

Madis on pg 480 of The Winchester Book states the 1895 was made in 30-06 (30 Govt 06) from 1908 to 1926.

Sharpe on pg 234 in The Rifle in America (1st ed 1938) states the 30-06 was first offered in 1908. He mentions also that following WW I that 1895s in 30-06 were "blowing up," but he said that he and others dug into it and attributed the blowups to owners firing 8mm Mauser ammo in rifles chambered for 30-06.

Ackley mentioned in several articles that the 30-06 in the 1895 would cause headspace problems, but that has not been substantiated in 1895s made since 1916-1917. The only sure issue with the original 1895 in 30-06 is firing pin hole erosion, easily solved by bushing the firing pin. I had mine bushed about six years ago. IMO, Ackley's writings have been parroted by gun writers again and again, and it's become "common knowledge," albeit questionable.

Madis also stated in his book that 3 of 4 Model 1895s were chambered in "30 Army," or 30-40. The second most popular chambering was 405.

HTH,

Noah

[Malamute]

Yes, its clear as mud from the quotes.
The 30-40's were marked 30 US and I believe 30 Army?. The 30-03 was marked 30 gov 03 and the 06's were marked 30 gov 06. They may have marked them otherwise, and differently at different times, but that's my recollection from the ones I've seen. Sheds no light on the discussion at hand though. Once Roosevelt mentioned the Army Springfield, which we know to the an 03, the info gets cloudy.

This is my understanding as well. Even the early 1903s weren't considered safe with the -'06 round. It's quite possible they were both using -'03 ammo. I don't know that the Springfield was ever chambered in the 30 Army.

If you meant an '06 chambered gun was using '03 ammo, I don't think they would chamber. The cases were identical in most respects, but the '03 had a longer neck. I don't think an '03 round would chamber in an '06 chamber.

Most of the '03 chambered guns (1903 Springfields) had the barrel set back and rechambered for the '06 round.

[piller]

So, it is absolutely certain that Kermit Roosevelt had at least one Winchester 95 with him, and it was certainly in a .30 caliber which had been a military round. Beyond that, there is uncertainty.

Sounds clear enough, but, at the same time, as confusing as the timing diagrams on those old French cars that used a spinning cylinder instead of valves.