30/30 Handload Problem

[Michaux]

Need some help please. I'm loading for a pre'64 94 in 30/30 Win. I'm using a Sierra 150 FN w/cannelure (which looks and feels like nothing more then shallow scraps). I'm using an RCBS sizing die and a Lee factory crimp die. My problem is that when I load the rounds into the magazine tube (without firing the rifle, just letting it loaded for about 12 hours or so) the bullets are being pushed back into the case. I think I'm putting a fairly heavy crimp on the rounds according to the instructions. I even readjusted the Lee die and re-crimped. Better, but still bullets are being pushed back. I'm now thinking that perhaps the expander ball in the RCBS die is a bit big. Any Idea as to what a 30/30 expander ball should mic out at? And maybe just a simple roll crimp? Any ideas would be appreciated.

Michaux

[Chuck 100 yd]

It sounds like your die is over expanding the neck for that particular bullet and there is not enough neck tension. Measure the bullets. I bet they are either .307 or you just need a smaller neck expander button. The bullets should be very tight in the case neck even without crimping.

To use up those bullets, you may have to get a LEE `Rifle` Factory Crimp die. The Rifle FCD has collet type fingers that have the power to crimp right into the bullet without buckling the case shoulder causing chambering issues.

[Shasta]

I've experienced this same problem. I just removed the expander rod from the sizer die so the brass was not expanded upon removal from the die. Solved the problem, at least for me.

SHASTA

[Michaux]

Maybe I''ll try that Shasta as the bullets are measuring at .308". At least it's something to check out. Wonder what the ID of the neck will be though and the increase in pressure?

Michaux

[Chuck 100 yd]

If you are able to seat the bullet without buckling the shoulder on .30-30 brass the added neck tension will have little affect on pressure. Worth a try but I would chamfer the inside of the case mouth to ease bullet starting. Have fun and good luck.

[J Miller]

Michaux,

Contact RCBS and tell them the problem. They'll make it right.

I've got two sets of RCBS 30-30 dies and they size all the brands of brass I've ever used and then expanded the necks to the point I do not have to crimp them.
The bullets, any brand, will not move. I only crimp them to smooth out the case mouth.

I suspect your sizing die or expander or both is out of spec.

Joe

[Griff]

Michaux,

Contact RCBS and tell them the problem. They'll make it right.

I've got two sets of RCBS 30-30 dies and they size all the brands of brass I've ever used and then expanded the necks to the point I do not have to crimp them.
The bullets, any brand, will not move. I only crimp them to smooth out the case mouth.

I suspect your sizing die or expander or both is out of spec.

Joe

+1.

[Tactical Lever]

Dumb question, but are you on the cannelure when you crimp? What brass are you using?

[earlmck]

I've never had that problem, Michaux. But for sure it shouldn't be happening, even without a crimp. I went in and miked my 30/30 stuff and here is what I have: Lee FL sizer, .3065" expander ball. Lyman "M" 30 cal expander, .3063" for the main body (it has a larger diameter portion up top to give a little larger case mouth if wanted for easier starting of cast bullets). Ancient Herter's FL size die: .3068" expander ball. My Sierra 150 grain Round-Nose bullets mike .3078".

So check your expander ball against these figures: could be an oversize exander ball.

A second possibility is that the size die may not be sizing the necks down enough in the first place.

And a third possibility -- you may have a lot of brass that is extra thin in the neck area so they don't get sized down enough by a perfectly good die.

Has to be one of these things.

[Michaux]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm using Winchester brass, Lee 30/30 Factory Crimp die, and centering the crimp on the cannelure. I'll mic the expander ball and then go from there. May try sizing some without the expander ball in place while I'm at it. With any luck I'll get it figured out.

Michaux

[Griff]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm using Winchester brass, Lee 30/30 Factory Crimp die, and centering the crimp on the cannelure. I'll mic the expander ball and then go from there. May try sizing some without the expander ball in place while I'm at it. With any luck I'll get it figured out.

Michaux

I'm away from the house, but if you take the expander ball out, make sure you chamfer the inside of case mouth to get the bullets started w/o crumpling the necks, as Chuck said. I have to do this even with the expander in place on both sets of my RCBS .30-30 dies.

[Nath]

How about putting the expander in a drill and polish it down some!

[Michaux]

Another good idea. So how hard is the metal in an expander ball? Paper or stone?

Michaux

[ollogger]

Another good idea. So how hard is the metal in an expander ball? Paper or stone?

Michaux

lets just say even with a very fine sand paper you can get the opposite effect



ollogger

[Nath]

Another good idea. So how hard is the metal in an expander ball? Paper or stone?

Michaux

They are hard, never had to do it but a stone first I guess, I would not hesitate my self.

I would also roll crimp over the Lee die, you may just have one that is not doing it enough where as the roll crimp facility is unlimited!

Do trim all the cases to the same length....pardon my assuming!

N.

[Griff]

Another good idea. So how hard is the metal in an expander ball? Paper or stone?
Michaux

It's "tool steel", might be tungsten...

Before I went modifying that set... I'd call RCBS Customer Service in the am and describe the problem to them. All their 7.62 dies use the same expander. In all honesty, you could have the correct ball, & an out of spec die, one that doesn't size the neck small enough to then be expanded.

When I size a .30-30 case, I have resistance on the up-stroke once the case encounters the taper of the die; approx. ½ way into the die, (varies depending on the size the chamber it was fired in). On the down-stroke (direction of the ram, not the handle), I have about ½" of free travel then resistance again as the neck meets the expander plug.

If you're not getting any drag on the case's way out of the die, either the die is to large, or the expander is too small. The former seems more likely, unless you're encountering resistance on the way down. Regardless, if you have a dial caliper, I'd size two cases, one with and the 2nd without the expander/decapping stem in place. Note the various finished dimensions of: i.d. & o.d. of each case. That will definitively tell you if the die or expander ball is the problem.

That way, when you talk to customer service you can reasonably expect to get a correct solution to the problem. I would be surprised if they don't just send you a new .30-30 sizer assy. Even iif they don't ask, I'd volunteer to mail them the defective part(s).

[Sixgun]

99% of all problems of this nature can be easily solved with "critical thinking". Turn off the radio and chase everyone out of the room.

Get your micrometer and go step by step, starting with measuring the sized case and compare it with a factory round or just look at a schematic of the round in question.

Measure the bullet in question. Most likely it will be .307. It should be tight before the crimp, except with cast bullets and there you only want a thou or two constriction, unless you don't mind sizing the bullet down even further. With jacketed ammo I like about .004 of difference between the diameter of the bullet and the inside of the case. Benchrest or ammo for single shots enter into another realm and will not be discussed here.

I own several dozen Lee Factory Crimp Dies. Nothing, and I mean nothing has ever made my life easier in the crimping department during the last 40+ years of reloading. I have never had one out of spec.
Go ahead and screw it down....it should leave a pronounced groove in the bullet......it's supposed to do that.

One of my quality assurance tests in the beginning of any loading session is to take the first loaded
round, hold it in my right hand and attempt to push the bullet into the case by pushing it against the end of my loading bench, using reasonable force, which by my definition is about 5 times what the spring strength is.

Read, and reread the excellent responses what the guys here have written, chase out the people, fire up a joint and feel confidant you will find the answer.-----6.

[flatnose]

Michaux, How far are the bullets moving back into the cartridge? Bullets can move in the case neck, but should not move past the cannelure groove on the bullet.
The expander ball diameter does not matter, providing that when you seat the bullet into the neck it does not fall into the cartridge.
Using a bullet with a cannelure, all you need is enough neck tension to hold the bullet in place while you apply the crimp.
I would guess that you either have bad cannelures on the bullet, something wrong with the crimp process, or the case neck is too hard or springy to take a good crimp.
Make sure all the sizing lube is removed from inside the case neck, if not, the bullets will move in and out of the cartridge if they were crimped lightly.
In any event, the crimp must, and should stay within the cannelure.

[piller]

If the problem is with the Lee dies, do not hesitate to contact them. I have had to call Lee Precision for a part on my press, and their service is outstanding.

[1886]

You are experiencing neck tension problems that crimping alone will not solve. The various manufactures of reloading dies do not seem to understand proper neck tension. Put the expander assembly in a drill and polish the expander button with crocus paper until it measures .303". Problem solved with jacketed and hard cast projectiles. Increased neck tension with jacketed and hard cast projectiles brings many benefits.
Just a side note, In the future, If you plan to load soft cast projectiles that measure .309", you will need an expander button that measures approx. .306". 1886.

[mark]

Good morning,

I measured ten of my FLS, trimmed 30-30 cases, PMC. According to my calipers the internal neck dimensions are 0.304 to 0.305". The dies used were made by Lee.

I use the dies to "roll crimp" into the cannula. I test the crimp visually with a magnifying glass and mechanically by trying to push the bullet into the case at the edge of the loading bench.

I have Lee FCD's in several calibers. They can be useful at times, depending on the circumstances.

I never use them for crimping jacketed projectiles in a 30-30 case if the bullet has a suitable cannula.

Thanks for an interesting post.

Cheers Mark

[stretch]

I have run into undersized bullets before. Not common, but the
manufacturers aren't always perfect! Same with die makers.
The internal diameter of the case neck should be a thousandth or
two smaller than the bullet. I thknk a thousandth of an inch is the
convention. That "inerference fit" should hold the bullet just fine
in the mag tube - the crimp is to make sure it stays that way
under conditions of recoil in said magazine tube.

Earl has pretty much given you all of the possibilities for trouble!

If your expander ball is too big, silicon carbide paper will take it
down. The tool steel is hard, but not ridiculously so. Lubricate with oil,
then polish, and it will be better than factory.

Any of the die makers will make things right if there's a problem with
their dies.

-Stretch

[BAGTIC]

Probably no increase in pressure. The case neck will expand enough to release the bullet long before it matters. The hardness of the bullet and its travel distance before engaging the rifling are far more important.