Is Your Church Posted As A Gun Free Zone?

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 7:29 pm

Apparently my entire denomination is and has been for sometime now.
Though I haven't seen any of those signs posted at the doors as of yet.
Surprising considering it's a Monday-Friday daycare.
http://www.umc.org/what-we-believe/chur ... -free-zone

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 8:12 pm

Unless something happens, they should never see it. In the event something happens, you may end up with an honorary title and a special seat to help you watch over the congregation.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:12 pm

The only time I have ever seen a no gun policy posted in a church was when we went to one of my wife's college reunions and we went to the college chapel. I'm not sure what the denomination of the church there was, I guess that would be relevant.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 9:46 pm

Please see my response to the Polling Place carry issue

I've heard some really good arguments that not only would He approve of SD, He would demand that you do so. Protecting His temple from evil, and so on.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:17 pm

Our church is almost like the old joke. If you don't have one someone will loan you a gun if you need it.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:33 pm

This is what happens when people who don't understand what they are reading make a ridiculously inappropriate application.

Whereas, in keeping with the spirit of Isaiah 2:4: "God will judge between the nations, and settle disputes of mighty nations. Then they will beat their swords into iron plows, and their spears into pruning tools. Nation will not take up sword against nation; they will no longer learn how to make war";

Whereas, reflecting the church's traditional role as a place of safety and sanctuary.....,

The passage says that (FIRST) God will judge between and settle disputes of mighty nations. THEN (after that judgement) they will beat their swords into plows...... etc. The second thing is an outgrowth of the first thing. There is no sense in which the effects, and therefore the roles, can be reversed.

The armaments are not needed once God settles the disputes. This passage does not say that nations will disarm AND THEN God will judge the nations.

It's more of the idea that God needs people's help to make the out come what He is wishing for. When people think God NEEDS mankind's help, the people don't know God. It appears the methodists are methodically treading that path of unbelief in God's supernatural revelation of his supernatural nature and plan.

Naturally, (and I mean this quite literally), many folks will have vehement disagreements about the subject of the topic. But the conclusion of the board is not drawn from scripture. At least not from that one.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:34 pm

Only time I go to church is in the Philippines . So it's a moot point for me .

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:52 pm

Our church is the furthest thing from it.

Anyway, in AK, a church could post it, but they could not legally enforce it.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Wed Sep 10, 2014 11:56 pm

Grizz wrote:This is what happens when people who don't understand what they are reading make a ridiculously inappropriate application.

Whereas, in keeping with the spirit of Isaiah 2:4: "God will judge between the nations, and settle disputes of mighty nations. Then they will beat their swords into iron plows, and their spears into pruning tools. Nation will not take up sword against nation; they will no longer learn how to make war";

Whereas, reflecting the church's traditional role as a place of safety and sanctuary.....,
The passage says that (FIRST) God will judge between and settle disputes of mighty nations. THEN (after that judgement) they will beat their swords into plows...... etc. The second thing is an outgrowth of the first thing. There is no sense in which the effects, and therefore the roles, can be reversed.

The armaments are not needed once God settles the disputes. This passage does not say that nations will disarm AND THEN God will judge the nations.

It's more of the idea that God needs people's help to make the out come what He is wishing for. When people think God NEEDS mankind's help, the people don't know God. It appears the methodists are methodically treading that path of unbelief in God's supernatural revelation of his supernatural nature and plan.

Naturally, (and I mean this quite literally), many folks will have vehement disagreements about the subject of the topic. But the conclusion of the board is not drawn from scripture. At least not from that one.

Grizz, I believe you're smarter than the average bear.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:31 am

claybob86 wrote:
Grizz wrote:This is what happens when people who don't understand what they are reading make a ridiculously inappropriate application.

Whereas, in keeping with the spirit of Isaiah 2:4: "God will judge between the nations, and settle disputes of mighty nations. Then they will beat their swords into iron plows, and their spears into pruning tools. Nation will not take up sword against nation; they will no longer learn how to make war";

Whereas, reflecting the church's traditional role as a place of safety and sanctuary.....,
The passage says that (FIRST) God will judge between and settle disputes of mighty nations. THEN (after that judgement) they will beat their swords into plows...... etc. The second thing is an outgrowth of the first thing. There is no sense in which the effects, and therefore the roles, can be reversed.

The armaments are not needed once God settles the disputes. This passage does not say that nations will disarm AND THEN God will judge the nations.

It's more of the idea that God needs people's help to make the out come what He is wishing for. When people think God NEEDS mankind's help, the people don't know God. It appears the methodists are methodically treading that path of unbelief in God's supernatural revelation of his supernatural nature and plan.

Naturally, (and I mean this quite literally), many folks will have vehement disagreements about the subject of the topic. But the conclusion of the board is not drawn from scripture. At least not from that one.
Grizz, I believe you're smarter than the average bear.

+1 Good insight Grizz.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 5:50 am

Been doing a little research on this issue.
Apparently most mainline denominations have a written very similar stance as the UMC on this issue.
But apparently it's kept very low key for obvious reasons ($) and apparently most churches don't post the signs.
Personally, I think it's very hypocritical.
Joe average CCW holder is kept in the dark that part of his or her weekly offering plate money is going to an anti-gun political agenda.
The church denomination full well knows if these signs were posted hackles would be raised.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:16 am

I would refuse to belong to or contribute to, any entity calling itself a 'church' that was so hypocritical and anti-life as to be anti-gun. They may as well promote abortion-on-demand if they are going to be that way.

ndcowboy · Post by **ndcowboy** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:12 am

BlaineG wrote:Please see my response to the Polling Place carry issue

I've heard some really good arguments that not only would He approve of SD, He would demand that you do so. Protecting His temple from evil, and so on.

There is a book about this very topic called "Guns and Moses." Very interesting. Here is a link if anybody is interested:

http://store.levitt.com/GM

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:55 am

Like jerryB said, if you don't have one, somebody will loan you one. I and several others have been asked to come armed and one of us always sits in the foyer to monitor who comes and goes.
Our little church is about as far out in the sticks as you can get. We get a lot of visitors from Israel, South America and California. They always comment on the remoteness of our location.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:41 am

Just me, but the only thing I want to carry into the sanctuary is my Bible. The last thing I want to do is to come into that holy space with the expectation -- however remote -- of violence.
This of course does not answer the original post about whether my church has a no-guns sign. I haven't seen one.

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:04 am

In my Church there are several Correctional Officers employed at Pelican Bay. I know some carry, but no one makes an issue out of it. I have not personally seen a weapon, but that's why it's called "concealed carry". I have not heard of any "restrictions" or positions on the subject, either pro or con.

Another issue someone brought up is money. I know for a fact that my Church donates no money to any political organization, charity, or anti-gun organization. The church has it's own missions, charitable functions, and schools, and only The Cross and Jesus Christ is the subject...

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:47 am

ndcowboy wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Please see my response to the Polling Place carry issue

I've heard some really good arguments that not only would He approve of SD, He would demand that you do so. Protecting His temple from evil, and so on.
There is a book about this very topic called "Guns and Moses." Very interesting. Here is a link if anybody is interested:

http://store.levitt.com/GM

Thanks, I'll check it out this evening.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 10:54 am

mikld wrote:In my Church there are several Correctional Officers employed at Pelican Bay. I know some carry, but no one makes an issue out of it. I have not personally seen a weapon, but that's why it's called "concealed carry". I have not heard of any "restrictions" or positions on the subject, either pro or con.

Another issue someone brought up is money. I know for a fact that my Church donates no money to any political organization, charity, or anti-gun organization. The church has it's own missions, charitable functions, and schools, and only The Cross and Jesus Christ is the subject...

That's a breath of fresh air to hear mikld.

So many churches and denominations are caving to the being 'politically correct' mentality.
I can't speak for other denominations, but the UMC has a very strong political arm centered right in DC.

http://umc-gbcs.org/

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:18 pm

I go to Lonestar Cowboy Church of Red Oak, TX. Not only is there some concealed carry, there are times when we even see open carry. One of the Elders teaches the Concealed Handgun License class right there on the Church Grounds. I always feel safe in that building, and with the members of the Church. When we have the Cowboy Action Shooting after Church, you will see 6 to 20 people in Church carrying pistols in a holster. Some are loaded, but whether it is blanks or live ammo is something I have never bothered to ask.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:39 pm

piller wrote:I go to Lonestar Cowboy Church of Red Oak, TX. Not only is there some concealed carry, there are times when we even see open carry. One of the Elders teaches the Concealed Handgun License class right there on the Church Grounds. I always feel safe in that building, and with the members of the Church. When we have the Cowboy Action Shooting after Church, you will see 6 to 20 people in Church carrying pistols in a holster. Some are loaded, but whether it is blanks or live ammo is something I have never bothered to ask.

Very cool

Seems the states in the U S of A are becoming like different planets
from one another in some instances.
Could explain why it seems people don't get along so good anymore.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 12:41 pm

I was a member of a UMC several years but would not tithe there because of their contributions to anti-gun causes. The church I go to now has asked me to organize a rapid response team in the event of a potential catastrophic situation. Several of us are CCW holders, and before we put this team together, there will be clear uinderstanding of what each person's role is, who calls 911, who leads, who is back up, watching what is behind a threat so to minimize innocent casulties, and drill on a regular basis. In Texas, there is a lot of common sense.

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:05 pm

AJMD429 wrote:I would refuse to belong to or contribute to, any entity calling itself a 'church' that was so hypocritical and anti-life as to be anti-gun. They may as well promote abortion-on-demand if they are going to be that way.

I think you guys are missing the point - some churches are anti-blood-of-Jesus.
The largest UMC in my city fired the music minister because she wanted to sing songs that included Jesus' blood.
SoK, she came to work at my church - I studied voice with her for a couple of years

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 1:09 pm

bulldog1935 wrote:
AJMD429 wrote:I would refuse to belong to or contribute to, any entity calling itself a 'church' that was so hypocritical and anti-life as to be anti-gun. They may as well promote abortion-on-demand if they are going to be that way.
I think you guys are missing the point - some churches are anti-blood-of-Jesus.
The largest UMC in my city fired the music minister because she wanted to sing songs that included Jesus' blood.
SoK, she came to work at my church - I studied voice with her for a couple of years

I don't understand why what would be.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 2:20 pm

I can take 'em or leave 'em... most churches I've attended are VERY political in nature... I can either ignore rules I don't like, or let my feet vote. But, I've always felt that if one doesn't tell them WHY you're leaving, they'll never have the opportunity to wise up. For they'll just merrily sail along, unaware that the wolves gather.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 3:42 pm

NOPE... :)

Untitled.jpg

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:31 pm

Griff wrote:I can either ignore rules I don't like, or let my feet vote. But, I've always felt that if one doesn't tell them WHY you're leaving, they'll never have the opportunity to wise up. For they'll just merrily sail along, unaware that the wolves gather.

VERY true - that is true especially of businesses people decide to no longer patronize; tell them WHY, and then when you locate a new one to replace that one, tell THAT one why, as well.

Marlin32 · Post by **Marlin32** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:36 pm

In Nebraska, it is illegal to carry in a church. But there are no signs.

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:42 pm

I don't want to cause this thread to get off on a tangent, but, were it not for Jesus shedding his blood for us, then we would have to live and strictly abide by the Old Testament laws for the sake of the law. He died so that I could live and have hope through the love of the Creator. One of the things that I see as an example of his love for us is that we can make things out of the earth and have those things do what we made them to do. Sort of a Monkey see, monkey do attempt at emulating our Creator. It is obvious that what we create does not truly live as we do, and that is why it is just an attempt at emulation.

In Luke, Jesus told his disciples to sell their extra cloak, if they had one, and buy a sword. There were two, and he told them that it was enough. We don't always need to be armed to the teeth, but Jesus never told us to be unarmed.

ethang · Post by **ethang** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 4:57 pm

Just a few weeks ago at a Church in Detroit a mental male with a hatchet attacked several members of the church. An off duty officer engaged him and was struck several times. A responding unit also engaged him and put an end to the matter. Church or not, you never know when the flag is going to go up.

I would want something more then a bible or hymnal to hit somebody with.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 6:23 pm

as to whether i'm carrying or not ---- what they don't know won't hurt 'em

This applies to church, Target, Panera bread or any other place

cnjarvis · Post by **cnjarvis** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 7:53 pm

casastahle wrote:Been doing a little research on this issue.
Apparently most mainline denominations have a written very similar stance as the UMC on this issue.
But apparently it's kept very low key for obvious reasons ($) and apparently most churches don't post the signs.
Personally, I think it's very hypocritical.
Joe average CCW holder is kept in the dark that part of his or her weekly offering plate money is going to an anti-gun political agenda.
The church denomination full well knows if these signs were posted hackles would be raised.

I'm a UMC member and I've been aware of the issue for 8+ years. It's a major reason I seldom attend and never contribute to the general fund. I will occasionally contribute to individual mission causes though. In the last year or two, my church posted "no firearms" signs on every door.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:22 pm

cnjarvis wrote:
casastahle wrote:Been doing a little research on this issue.
Apparently most mainline denominations have a written very similar stance as the UMC on this issue.
But apparently it's kept very low key for obvious reasons ($) and apparently most churches don't post the signs.
Personally, I think it's very hypocritical.
Joe average CCW holder is kept in the dark that part of his or her weekly offering plate money is going to an anti-gun political agenda.
The church denomination full well knows if these signs were posted hackles would be raised.
I'm a UMC member and I've been aware of the issue for 8+ years. It's a major reason I seldom attend and never contribute to the general fund. I will occasionally contribute to individual mission causes though. In the last year or two, my church posted "no firearms" signs on every door.

Wow!
Unfortunately, I can't say it surprises me.

The writing is and has been on the wall for awhile now.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 8:33 pm

Not only does the Statewide district of the denomination I go to NOT have a "no weapons policy", we have started an annual "Men's Retreat" that focuses on Guns, the Constitution and Doctrinal issues... bring your own ammo, range is open after Bible Study.

Now, that is likely not the case in ALL of the individual Districts, but out here in Wyoming (where the "Law" says you cannot CCW in a Church without written permission

) most of the individual churches maintain a proper "don't ask, don't tell" policy - especially in regards to the Elders/Ushers who are tasked with congregational Health & Safety during services.

Indigo22 · Post by **Indigo22** » Thu Sep 11, 2014 9:52 pm

About 10 years ago a church in Gary, Indiana had their offering stolen after the services in the parking lot. The custodian was armed and responded to the robbery. Shortly after that two of us on the elders board noted that we will be armed along with another senior member. No one but the pastor was notified. There was no call to vote as there was no option given. Our church was about eight miles south of Gary and twelve or so miles from that church. We had transients frequently stopping in asking for help in one way or another. We were always quick to be of assistance yet cautious to never be alone when doing so.
I'm no longer in NW Indiana but I am still carrying 99.9% of the time and ministering as need be.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:12 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:Just me, but the only thing I want to carry into the sanctuary is my Bible. The last thing I want to do is to come into that holy space with the expectation -- however remote -- of violence.
This of course does not answer the original post about whether my church has a no-guns sign. I haven't seen one.

Bill, there is respected validity to your viewpoint. (thanks for sharing it BTW)

In a situation where a church has a written no gun policy & signs saying as such posted at every door,
I think the CCW guy or gal is hosed no matter how it goes down.

Mr. Alan blows through the doors halfway into a service with a you-pick-a-weapon, going after Mrs. Alan for being with deacon Don.

Mr. CCW pulls Mr Smith & Mr. Wesson getting between Mr. Alan & Mrs. Alan to stop the attack.

Mr. Alan lets one fly or a swing from you-pick-a-weapon at Mr. CCW.

Mr. CCW unloads Mr Smith & Mr. Wesson, taking out Mr. Alan as well as 74 year old Grandma Bell sitting in the choir loft as well as the 14 year old alter girl.

Mr. good intentioned CCW holders life is over, like put a fork in it done.
Spending the rest of his life wishing he would have followed the church rules and obeyed those posted signs.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:42 am

a much more realistic and much more likely scenario is some number of jihadis walk in with full auto ak47s, and the ccw license holders get to watch everyone's demise. put a fork in them.

this is their modus operandi, it worked with machetes in africa, it worked with ak's in germany and everywhere else, and all that is required in amerika is for good men to do nothing.

carrying a gun into a building doesn't defile the building or the trinity, because God's sanctuary on earth is His children. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. I'm not making this up, it is in the Bible.

the active shooter scenario in a church building has already been tested in amerika and was stopped by someone with a firearm. in colorado? maybe.

I agree that if someone's conscience forbids them from from defending the sheep from the wolves, so be it.

me, I am not skilled in combat, nor am I a brawler, but my conscience doesn't permit me to live with the thought that, but for the fact that I left my weapon out of reach, I could have prevented mayhem to my loved ones. that includes the congregation where I fellowship.

rules written by church organizations are not laws, so no law is broken. corrupt laws written by unbelievers are broken in good conscience in my opinion. but that might be just a me-thing and I don't want to lead anyone to violate their conscience.

much of this stuff falls into the scripture admonition to "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling".

Grizz

Bullard4075 · Post by **Bullard4075** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:59 am

JerryB wrote:Our church is almost like the old joke. If you don't have one someone will loan you a gun if you need it.

+1
That's mine !!

bdhold · Post by **bdhold** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:59 am

I think my viewpoint is every church has a right to designate their policies (policy = politics).
Quoting my pastor, there are 600 churches in town. If you don't like what old what's his name says, find one where you do fit in.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:15 am

My nephew was shot in the butt with bird shot in the Colorado thing. Still wearing it. He was doing all he could do by beating a hasty retreat while shielding his wife since he had to be unarmed. I don't want that for more of my family or congregation.
We started the armed guard in the foyer while some weirdo was stalking a 14 year old girl at the church. He actually came into the sanctuary once. Only once. There have been a couple of other brushes with exes because of heated court cases but then you run that risk when you minister to the hurting/walking wounded, (in the heart/spirit).
Grizz, Amen to what you said!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:49 am

Grizz wrote:a much more realistic and much more likely scenario is some number of jihadis walk in with full auto ak47s, and the ccw license holders get to watch everyone's demise. put a fork in them.

this is their modus operandi, it worked with machetes in africa, it worked with ak's in germany and everywhere else, and all that is required in amerika is for good men to do nothing.

carrying a gun into a building doesn't defile the building or the trinity, because God's sanctuary on earth is His children. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit. I'm not making this up, it is in the Bible.

the active shooter scenario in a church building has already been tested in amerika and was stopped by someone with a firearm. in colorado? maybe.

I agree that if someone's conscience forbids them from from defending the sheep from the wolves, so be it.

me, I am not skilled in combat, nor am I a brawler, but my conscience doesn't permit me to live with the thought that, but for the fact that I left my weapon out of reach, I could have prevented mayhem to my loved ones. that includes the congregation where I fellowship.

rules written by church organizations are not laws, so no law is broken. corrupt laws written by unbelievers are broken in good conscience in my opinion. but that might be just a me-thing and I don't want to lead anyone to violate their conscience.

much of this stuff falls into the scripture admonition to "work out your own salvation in fear and trembling".

Grizz

Grizz,
I agree with just about everything you articulated very well above.

Except: "a much more realistic and much more likely scenario is some number of jihadis walk in with full auto ak47s, and the ccw license holders get to watch everyone's demise"

I think the more likely attack would be drug or domestic in nature. (JMHO)
Some of the nuttiest of nut cases can be found sitting in church every Sunday morning.
If you've ever sat in on a church meeting where something as simple as picking carpet color was the topic, anyway

many of you probably know what I'm talking about

2571 · Post by **2571** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:37 pm

Mt. 5:39

Thought of being armed a Christian church is despicable.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 6:47 pm

2571 wrote:Mt. 5:39

Thought of being armed a Christian church is despicable.

And the thought of not being able to defend your churchmates?

You might want to look up "Charl van Wyk" and the 1993 Saint James Church Massacre. It was ONLY because and after Mr. van Wyck returned fire that the thugs retreated... leaving 11 dead and 58 wounded.

So, what are YOU going to do about it if/when a nutcase/islamofascist decides to whack a bunch of infidels?

How many Churches has ISIS or other Islamofascists destroyed? How many people were worshiping there at the time?

From South of the Border and Green Card Sleeper Cells, Coming soon to to a City near you. Dearborn isn't that far away from Detroit...

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:47 pm

2571 wrote:Mt. 5:39

Thought of being armed a Christian church is despicable.

this is not an uncommon sentiment. a despicable thought? hmmmmm

this is a picture from Israel's history, at the time when God miraculously returned the nation from captivity in Babylon so they could rebuild the walls and the temple under the leadership of the prophet Nehemiah.

Nehemiah 4 New International Version (NIV)
7 But when Sanballat, Tobiah, the Arabs, the Ammonites and the people of Ashdod heard that the repairs to Jerusalem’s walls had gone ahead and that the gaps were being closed, they were very angry. 8 They all plotted together to come and fight against Jerusalem and stir up trouble against it. 9 But we prayed to our God and posted a guard day and night to meet this threat.

13 Therefore I stationed some of the people behind the lowest points of the wall at the exposed places, posting them by families, with their swords, spears and bows. 14 After I looked things over, I stood up and said to the nobles, the officials and the rest of the people, “Don’t be afraid of them. Remember the Lord, who is great and awesome, and fight for your families, your sons and your daughters, your wives and your homes.”

When there is a mass movement of unbelievers who are destroying believers, Christ's injunction to turn a cheek to insulters most likely does not indicate that the entire remnant should commit mass suicide by not resisting evil terror. Does it? Does it make sense in light of all the scripture taken as a whole?

I can see how it can apply when a believer is in a lions den and has no weapons for defense. Then, in Daniel's case the LORD delivered them to more life on earth, and in the example of the lions in the colliseum the LORD delivered them to his kingdom. Daniel was in a position to do good to his enemies, the brothers in rome were in a position to forgive and move on.

Christ turned the other cheek when he was chained and tortured, and did not call down his legions of backup because his mission involved getting onto the cross, not avoiding it. This was the example he set that illustrates the lesson he taught. There are plenty of believers being crucified and hopefully they are all turning the other cheek.

If a man's conscience forbids him from resisting evil and terror, so be it.

If a man's conscience forbids him to go along with terror and evil, so be it.

God said that king David was a man after God's own heart. He also said that David was a bloody man and therefore David was not allowed to build the temple in Jerusalem.

I do not recommend that any man violate his conscience in matters of faith. Some have stronger faith than others. As long as the twain are both brothers in Christ, the difference is of minor significance. And the direct admonition is for the stronger in faith to not rattle the weaker in faith. Therefore I conceal my sidearms when I fellowship with my congregation.

Indigo22 · Post by **Indigo22** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:19 pm

2571 wrote:Mt. 5:39

Thought of being armed a Christian church is despicable.

One might ask then why would he have instructed the disciples if they had no sword to sell their coat an by one if there was no intent of defending ones self from evil. Scripture now leaves us in a sticky spot. Some of them did have swords as evidenced in the garden. Obviously they were not pacifists.
Mt 5:39 is talking about when you have a disagreement with someone and they slap you. Remember the OT story about rebuilding the city and having their swords in hand while doing so? It's called defending your faith and all that is sacred from the evil that may descend upon you.. Hatred and greed are the two most common evils in this world and are brought on by men, be they Jew, Christian, Pagan, Islam, or one void of belief in any god. The source is the condition of the heart. Until there is no more evil in this world there will a need for a tool to defend yourself. You, are the temple of God not that building. How is it that building is more sacred than the people God calls his church. F.E.A.R. or false evidence appearing real is an evil that try's to creep up from within and is a struggle to keep in check because other evils use it as a foundation to build upon.
Being aware that evil lurks in many places and being prepared to handle it is not despicable.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:25 pm

Well, there is one other thing... In some places (usually Dem Controlled Urban Centers) one of the reasons that, even where CCW is allowed it is NOT allowed in Churches or other gathering places is that there is a LOT of money to be made by Off Duty Cops and other Union Security Personnel being the "official" and Only person Armed...

Indigo22 · Post by **Indigo22** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:28 pm

Grizz wrote: I do not recommend that any man violate his conscience in matters of faith. Some have stronger faith than others. As long as the twain are both brothers in Christ, the difference is of minor significance. And the direct admonition is for the stronger in faith to not rattle the weaker in faith. Therefore I conceal my sidearms when I fellowship with my congregation.

Good point Grizz... my feelings likewise.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:35 pm

more strategy from Nehemiah:

16 And it came to pass from that time forth, that the half of my servants wrought in the work, and the other half of them held both the spears, the shields, and the bows, and the habergeons; and the rulers were behind all the house of Judah.

17 They which builded on the wall, and they that bare burdens, with those that laded, every one with one of his hands wrought in the work, and with the other hand held a weapon.

18 For the builders, every one had his sword girded by his side, and so builded. And he that sounded the trumpet was by me.

19 And I said unto the nobles, and to the rulers, and to the rest of the people, The work is great and large, and we are separated upon the wall, one far from another.

20 In what place therefore ye hear the sound of the trumpet, resort ye thither unto us: our God shall fight for us.

21 So we laboured in the work: and half of them held the spears from the rising of the morning till the stars appeared.

22 Likewise at the same time said I unto the people, Let every one with his servant lodge within Jerusalem, that in the night they may be a guard to us, and labour on the day.

Nehemiah has a strategy. liamia has none. eieio

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 9:38 pm

Indigo22 wrote:
Grizz wrote: I do not recommend that any man violate his conscience in matters of faith. Some have stronger faith than others. As long as the twain are both brothers in Christ, the difference is of minor significance. And the direct admonition is for the stronger in faith to not rattle the weaker in faith. Therefore I conceal my sidearms when I fellowship with my congregation.
Good point Grizz... my feelings likewise.

++1

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 12:33 am

2571 wrote:Mt. 5:39
Thought of being armed a Christian church is despicable.

You can choose to do what you want. Your church can choose to do what it wants (or should be able to, I believe that churches should be autonomous).

But to say that being armed in a Christian church is despicable shows an ignorance about scripture and what a Christian church should be. We can pull a lot of things out of scripture to support a lot of positions, but we have to be careful to balance our beliefs and actions by the totality of scripture.

Self-defense and the defense of the innocent are clearly Biblical concepts. So is being armed for self-defense purposes, as well as for military service or to enforce laws.

Being peaceful and law abiding and causing no harm to others is also a Biblical concept.

If you believe that the church was started by Christ and his disciples, then you should think about this statement by the Lord Jesus Christ himself to his disciples: "Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one."

Several people have mentioned this passage from Luke 22 previously, but we should look at it in its context and consider what he was saying.

v37 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
The Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of when he sent them out, during his ministry on the earth.

v36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
He said, "but now" indicating that there will be a change, which is mentioned in the next verse:

v37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
The change is that he would no longer be physically present with his disciples. So because of this change, he told his disciples to buy swords. Why?

v38 And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.
His disciples had two swords, and he told them that it was enough. Enough to start a war? To forcibly convert others to their beliefs? To embark on a campaign of vigilante justice? No, they would need more swords for any of those purposes. On the other hand, it is clear that he wanted them to have the means for self-defense.

v39 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.

At the Mount of Olives he was arrested, and one of the disciples cut off the ear of one of those who came to arrest him. We don't know what might have happened to the disciples had they not shown that they had the means for self-defense.

In Matthew 26:52 "Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword."

He did not say, "Get rid of that evil sword," or, "Keep swords out of my church," He said, "Put up again thy sword into his place:"

He was first of all telling them that in this situation, they should allow him to be taken, and secondly, that though they were armed and prepared to defend themselves, they should not be men of violence.

There are some men who use violence for just causes, and there are others who are violent men. There is a difference, and we are to be prepared to use violence without being violent men.

In the book of Joshua, God told Israel, "One man of you shall chase a thousand: for the LORD your God, he it is that fighteth for you, as he hath promised you." God promised to fight for them, but that did not remove the requirement for the people of Israel to fight for themselves. God told them that he did not remove all of their enemies, but left some so that their future generations would learn to fight, to gain the skills of war to keep the nation strong. Keep in mind that at this time, the nation was a congregation.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Sep 13, 2014 4:27 am

Thanks for posting the above 7.62.
That's getting put in my 'Bible Scripture battle file' along with the ones Grizz posted.
Sunday school discussions can get interesting sometimes