US to change over to JHP

[Ray Newman]

Modular Handgun Project:

The Modular Handgun will use JHP ammo.

http://bearingarms.com/u-s-military-mak ... n=baupdate

[765x53]

The problem is, even civilized armies will continue the long standing tradition of summarily executing anyone captured in possession of soft point ammunition.

[hayabusa]

Might make civilian ammo harder to get/scarce.
Part of the greater plan?

hayabusa

[Blaine]

My ammo for social work is fmj...it's also a tad truncated. A toenail clipper works for my .308 FMJ

[Ji in Hawaii]

I always thought the Geneva Convention made the use of ammo not fully jacketed illegal and in violation of the laws of war.

[Ysabel Kid]

I always thought the Geneva Convention made the use of ammo not fully jacketed illegal and in violation of the laws of war.

I believe this is so - but not for the humanitarian reasons stated. The Geneva Convention was drafted by European countries and those whose roots were Europeans. The actual thought was that FMJ caused more battlefield injuries than deaths, thus consuming more resources in treating wounded. Logic fell apart in WWII, Korea and Vietnam - and now in the Middle East when we faced an enemy happy to leave their wounded behind for us to treat...

[Blaine]

I always thought the Geneva Convention made the use of ammo not fully jacketed illegal and in violation of the laws of war.

I believe this is so - but not for the humanitarian reasons stated. The Geneva Convention was drafted by European countries and those whose roots were Europeans. The actual thought was that FMJ caused more battlefield injuries than deaths, thus consuming more resources in treating wounded. Logic fell apart in WWII, Korea and Vietnam - and now in the Middle East when we faced an enemy happy to leave their wounded behind for us to treat...

It's an act of kindness to speed up the Rag's trip to paradise, and all them virgins.

[Ji in Hawaii]

I never could understand the "70 virgins" reward belief, it sounds kind of perverted.
I'd rather have a card for Cabela's good for 70 items of my choice.

[Blaine]

[JReed]

Interesting. But like all things in the military probably wont see the switch for a long time.

[horsesoldier03]

Theoretically, the Geneva/Hague only applies when fighting a uniformed army.

[OD#3]

It was the third declaration of the Hague Convention of 1899, and the United States refused to ratify it. It specifically banned the use of bullets designed to expand in the human body. We've obeyed it up til now only because most of the rest of the civilized world obeys it and would consider our using those bullets to be a violation of the laws of war. But we never agreed to do so by any treaty or convention.

[handirifle]

Yea but MOST of our previous enemies didn't do beheadings, tortures or suicide bombings either. Of course the Japanese or VC didn't exactly play by the rules either.

[guido4198]

I don't believe the Japanese were signatories either.
As to Victor Charles....those vermin weren't interested in rules or conventions.

[SteveR]

It was the third declaration of the Hague Convention of 1899, and the United States refused to ratify it. It specifically banned the use of bullets designed to expand in the human body. We've obeyed it up til now only because most of the rest of the civilized world obeys it and would consider our using those bullets to be a violation of the laws of war. But we never agreed to do so by any treaty or convention.

+1
I think the problem lies with out NATO European members, while the US did not sign, many of the NATO allies did, so how do we standardize the ammo for those countries?

Steve

[JReed]

As to standardization of ammo. 19 years I have never used ammo for work that didn't have a U.S. originating head stamp. If the issue is they get their ammo from us well then they should start making their own. As to the legality of them using our stuff well.... they need to figure it out.

[GoatGuy]

I always thought the Geneva Convention made the use of ammo not fully jacketed illegal and in violation of the laws of war.

Ji, it was the Hague Convention of 1899 where the issue of banning "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, etc" first reared it's head. Below are a few points of conduct of belligerents in warfare addressed at the 1899 Hague Convention. Some are kind of funny today in light of the innovations of modern warfare.

Major powers represented at the convention - United States, Great Britain, Austria-Hungary, Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Russia, Japan, and China. -

(IV,1): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Discharge of Projectiles and Explosives from Balloons or by Other New Analogous Methods

This declaration provides that, for a period of five years, in any war between signatory powers, no projectiles or explosives would be launched from balloons, "or by other new methods of a similar nature." The declaration was ratified by all the major powers mentioned above, except Great Britain and the United States.[13]

(IV,2): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Projectiles with the Sole Object to Spread Asphyxiating Poisonous Gases

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using projectiles "the sole object of which is the diffusion of asphyxiating or deleterious gases." Ratified by all major powers, except the United States.[14]

(IV,3): Declaration concerning the Prohibition of the Use of Bullets which can Easily Expand or Change their Form inside the Human Body such as Bullets with a Hard Covering which does not Completely Cover the Core, or containing Indentations

This declaration states that, in any war between signatory powers, the parties will abstain from using "bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body." This directly banned "soft-nosed" bullets (which had a partial metal jacket and an exposed tip) and "cross-tipped" bullets (which had a cross-shaped incision in their tip to aid in expansion, nicknamed "Dum Dums" from the Dum Dum Arsenal in India). It was ratified by all major powers, except the United States .

[SteveR]

As to standardization of ammo. 19 years I have never used ammo for work that didn't have a U.S. originating head stamp. If the issue is they get their ammo from us well then they should start making their own. As to the legality of them using our stuff well.... they need to figure it out.

I have shot a bunch of 5.56 from Germany, Sweden, and some from the United Kingdom. Norma is a huge ammo maker in Europe, they make most of what I shot. Quite a few of the European countries make there own NATO ammo.

Steve

[JReed]

As to standardization of ammo. 19 years I have never used ammo for work that didn't have a U.S. originating head stamp. If the issue is they get their ammo from us well then they should start making their own. As to the legality of them using our stuff well.... they need to figure it out.

I have shot a bunch of 5.56 from Germany, Sweden, and some from the United Kingdom. Norma is a huge ammo maker in Europe, they make most of what I shot. Quite a few of the European countries make there own NATO ammo.

Steve

I know quite a few of them make their own. Heck the Russians make 556. Just from my experiences niether myself nor any of my Marines have been issued ammo that didnt have a US head stamp. We have no ammo restrictions so any problems lay with the other NATO countries.

[SteveR]

As to standardization of ammo. 19 years I have never used ammo for work that didn't have a U.S. originating head stamp. If the issue is they get their ammo from us well then they should start making their own. As to the legality of them using our stuff well.... they need to figure it out.

I have shot a bunch of 5.56 from Germany, Sweden, and some from the United Kingdom. Norma is a huge ammo maker in Europe, they make most of what I shot. Quite a few of the European countries make there own NATO ammo.

Steve

I know quite a few of them make their own. Heck the Russians make 556. Just from my experiences niether myself nor any of my Marines have been issued ammo that didnt have a US head stamp. We have no ammo restrictions so any problems lay with the other NATO countries.

Sorry, I was a little dense, now I understand what you said. I love the Lake City 62gr greentip, for my semi-auto's, but the LC 55gr shoots better than the 62gr in my Savage boltaction.

Steve

[walks with gun]

I think in this case, the HP design is to hold a little pig lard in each bullet.

[jeepnik]

It was the third declaration of the Hague Convention of 1899, and the United States refused to ratify it. It specifically banned the use of bullets designed to expand in the human body. We've obeyed it up til now only because most of the rest of the civilized world obeys it and would consider our using those bullets to be a violation of the laws of war. But we never agreed to do so by any treaty or convention.

Bingo, and both parties had to be signatories.

[Blaine]

As an aside, Governmental agencies in the USA see fit to use the most destructive ammo possible on citizens. I do not have qualms about using it on our enemies.

[OD#3]

As to standardization of ammo. 19 years I have never used ammo for work that didn't have a U.S. originating head stamp. If the issue is they get their ammo from us well then they should start making their own. As to the legality of them using our stuff well.... they need to figure it out.

I used Radway Green on two separate deployments. The first was belted 7.62 that was provided to us to test-fire our machine guns with prior to crossing the border. The second time, I had nothing but 30 rounds of "force protection" ammo shortly after arrival in-country when I was suddenly ordered to a Marine Combat Outpost to handle their bulk fuel requirements for a few months. I was handed a couple of .50 cal ammo cans full of loose 5.56 that departing soldiers had emptied their magazines into. Most of it was Lake City--dirty, corroded, dented, and it had mixed date-of-manufacture headstamps. But some of it was Radway Green that looked like new and was all from the same date of manufacture. I picked through the ammo until I had enough Radway Green for a combat load. I never had the need to fire the 5.56, but I remember being impressed with the performance of the 7.62. I had purchased surplus Radway Green years before for my milsurps, but this new stuff was very good--as good or better than our best Lake City. Until then, I had always considered NATO standardization of ammo nice in theory but unlikely to ever affect me.

[JohndeFresno]

Given the well documented fact that we SPECIFICALLY AND INTENTIONALLY never signed the Geneva Convention accord as it relates to hollowpoints, and given the fact that our soldiers fought skirmishes and wars, and given the fact that I believe that at least some of our Presidents in the past really wanted for us to prevail in our campaigns, really cared about our soldiers -

I will never understand why it took this long for the Army to choose to provide ammunition that is available to our civilian population. I remember thinking about this while in Southeast Asia, over 50 years ago.

[GonnePhishin]

Like the big bad wolf said to goldilocks: "the better to blow yer' brains out with my dear."

[BrianSH]

The idea of the FMJ was to limit suffering.
The men in top hats and claw-hammer-tailed coats that came up with this knew that most armies were made up of conscripts & peasants, and not professional soldiers. So the plan was to put them out of action but maybe with a more survivable wound.

Also remember that these new-fangled super sonic cartridges were also fairly new on the scene. These days the idea is to drop 'em in their tracks and make 'em cry for their mommies. I like the bacon grease in the cavity idea too!

Just something I read somewhere, long ago. - Brian