Early 92 action 218 Bee pressure safety

[Aggiecubpilot]

My father and I bought a '92 in 218 Bee some years ago, knowing it wasn't original and we were excited to shoot it. The rifle appears to have a barrel from a 43 or 65 but stamping was changed on the barrel to say -MODEL 92- (appears just like any pre 64 barrel markings). We shot it on one occasion due to ammo availability and to my chagrin the primer backs out of the case when fired. Sound like a headspace issue?

Researching the topic I found some threads on 357 conversions with similar problems due to the pressure involved, which led me to research what SAMMI pressure is in the "little" 218 Bee. 40,000 CUP !!! Really?

Would 218 Bee be able to shoot loose a mild steel action?

[Pisgah]

Numerous things to be considered here...

First of all, is the pressure too high for the action? Honestly, I do not know -- but I sort of doubt it. Take that for what it is worth -- nothing.

Second -- you say the primers back out -- but how much? It is very common to see slight fired-primer protrusion in "traditional" Winchester and Marlin leverguns like the 92, 94 and 336. The chambers are generally a bit on the loose side, and the actions themselves a bit "springy". As long as the protrusion is slight and there's no sign of gas leakage, odds are all is well.

Third -- primer protrusion is more often a sign of LOW pressure than high. Part of the whole mechanism of how cartridges work is that when the primer is fired it almost instantaneously backs out -- and then the whole case is slammed back in to the breechface and the primer is re-seated and flattened.

Is there any extraction difficulty? Any sign of incipient case head failure? Cracking? Excessive case stretching?

Again, maybe it is a headspace problem -- but you can't just assume the worst, as there are many other potential causes, many of them nothing to worry about.

[earlmck]

Your research is correct: the Bee is loaded to somewhat higher pressures than are the 25/20 and 32/20. Going along with this, the Bee brass is built stouter in the web area (at least my Winchester brand stuff is). But the '92 action design is quite capable of handling the extra pressure. As you opine, the early 92's of the black powder era have milder steel and might not like the higher pressure. I have such a 92 action with a model 65 25/20 barrel attached, and I need to keep pressures down or I get base separations just the same as from excess headspace.

I don't like the sound of backed-out primers in your rifle -- a very noticeable backing out in a Bee would worry me also. I would guess you do indeed have some excess headspace. If you are not a reloader it is probably not much of an issue: it would just shorten your brass life. As you might guess, I have fished several headless 25/20's out of my model 92 before I smartened up and loaded 'em lighter and it has not been a big deal other than causing a temporary stop in the shooting. Usually pushing a brass brush through from the muzzle gets the case out: occasionally that doesn't work and I have a little piece of baling wire I bent/ground a sharp little hook at the end that grabs the case in the little space between the top of the neck and the end of the chamber (hopefully you have a little space there!). But even I have never had a failure on a first firing: it always took me 3 to 5 firings before case separation and that was with the weaker 25/20 brass.

Do you know the age of your 92? The older ones, black-powder era types, have a much larger diameter firing pin than the later smokeless era ones. If you have a normal firing pin diameter I'd guess you have a smokeless era '92 and the steel is not springing and you merely have a barrel that wasn't headspaced quite properly.

Winchester made standard 92's in 218 Bee, so if the barrel stamp seems like normal factory marking it is the factory marking. And are you sure it was rebarreled?

If you haven't done it already, check your serial number against the dates of manufacture here: http://www.savage99.com/winchester1892_dates.htm ... If you have a late 30's mfg date you may have an original Bee.

[Aggiecubpilot]

I'm pretty certain it's a re barrel. The finish around the "92" in -MODEL 92- is smuddgy looking and matte in comparison to the rest of the barrel which has some blue left. The receiver has no finish left. The stock is a rifle style with crescent but plate and forend is like that of a Model 64 or 65. The front sight is like that of a 64, or even a model 70 in that it the stippled ramp with a bead front dovetailed.

When I say the primers back out, it's slight but enough that the cases "teeter totter" on their rims on a flat table. The loads were Winchester factory, I want to say 46 gr but I can't remember.

What do we consider smokeless era with these rifles? Is the cutoff hard and fast?

[Malamute]

A small amount of primer backing out is fairly common in Winchesters. The extractor is pushing the shell forward pretty hard when chambered, and the pressure of the load will have to overcome the extractor spring, then whatever tolerance (loose space) there is before reseating the primer back into the case. In some discussions, it seems to be assumed that headspace is a perfect, set amount, and all ammo is perfectly to tightest spec as well. Even if in spec headspace wise, its a range, not a single number. A couple thousandths allowance (within spec) on the rifles headspace*, and the ammo most likely slightly small in its headspace so it works in all guns, and you have a little room for primers to move, even with factory ammo and headspace within spec. Its just tolerance stacking basically.

The firing pin size should be investigated. I believe some were bushed to smaller tip size to reduce primer flow into the bolt face.

* SAAMI chamber headspace specs allow .007" (.065-.072") range and still be in spec for 218 Bee. Any variance in the cartridge will only add to the possible clearance,...and can still all be within allowable specs.

http://www.saami.org/pubresources/cc_dr ... %20Bee.pdf

[MrMurphy]

My ex inherited one from her grandma. The rifle had not been shot in 50 years and was a professional-looking rebarrel job (as far as I could tell, it was original).

Sent it off to Winchester, the historian there said it was a 1926 .25-20 rebarreled, and that it shot great (I never got a chance to shoot it).

I don't think he figured there was an issue with pressures if he shot the gun himself.

That said, I would be a bit wary with a black powder era gun.

[earlmck]

When I say the primers back out, it's slight but enough that the cases "teeter totter" on their rims on a flat table. The loads were Winchester factory, I want to say 46 gr but I can't remember.

What do we consider smokeless era with these rifles? Is the cutoff hard and fast?

My black-powder era rifle has a serial # 34xxx which the web site shows as 1894. Big old firing pin and when I shoot those "too hot" loads the primer doesn't really back out but it does flow metal into the firing pin hole in the bolt so it creates quite a "pooch" which does cause a "teeter totter" effect.

My 980xxx rifle from 1927 has a nice normal firing pin and doesn't do near as much of the "pooch" thing even with my warmish loads.

I don't know when the change happened -- I believe I've heard about 1900? I hope somebody here knows and pipes up. And I think metal, or maybe it was the heat treatment, got better about the same time.

When does the web site think your action was made, Aggie?

I'm in there with Pisgah and Malamute -- I'm not sure you really have a problem, especially if you are not going to reload and therefore you don't need to worry about case life. But if you do indeed have a black-powder era action I would be tempted to become a reloader so I could load some great little loads that don't generate more than about 30k psi yet zoom a 45 grain bullet out there at a pretty good clip (real close to 2700 fps with the 45 grain Hornet bullet, so essentially 22 hornet velocities using Li'l Gun or H110 powders). Or you could really get into it and do my thing and use a 55 grain cast bullet at about 2100 fps and 20k psi pressures. That's mostly what my Bee shoots and I expect my brass to last dang near forever.

[Aggiecubpilot]

I'm away from the rifle but I'll look at the serial when I get back home and report back. I do reload, and bought dies, and thought that since factory 218 is so hard to come by, that I might stand a better chance of buying brass and loading cast bullets. I'm not looking for screaming performance like factory. Looks like that is going to be a harder and more costly than my dream machine 348 is. But thats part of the fun right!

I'll be sure to update this thread here in a couple days and see what you guys think.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I'm away from the rifle but I'll look at the serial when I get back home and report back. I do reload, and bought dies, and thought that since factory 218 is so hard to come by, that I might stand a better chance of buying brass and loading cast bullets. I'm not looking for screaming performance like factory. Looks like that is going to be a harder and more costly than my dream machine 348 is. But thats part of the fun right!

I'll be sure to update this thread here in a couple days and see what you guys think.

I see this all the time with the old 92 conversions. If your gun is pre WWI the metal will be suspect. It is really common with the pre-war 38/44 guns converted to 44mag. But, I see it with the 25/32 guns converted to 357m, just not as much. In the original cals it's not a problem but with the 40 thousand plus pressures it will probably shoot loose if it hasn't already. In your case it may be be just the black powder style large firing pin tip.

[kevind6]

Winchester made standard 92's in 218 Bee, so if the barrel stamp seems like normal factory marking it is the factory marking. And are you sure it was rebarreled?

If you haven't done it already, check your serial number against the dates of manufacture here: http://www.savage99.com/winchester1892_dates.htm ... If you have a late 30's mfg date you may have an original Bee.

I'm not an expert by any means, but I recall a discussion on this subject over on the Winchester Arms Collectors Association forum by many that are. In it they said that they have yet to come across an original 92 in 218 Bee, that all they had inspected were rebarrelled.

Here is a link to that discussion for those that are interested: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... lB8K7WbZEA

[earlmck]

I'm not an expert by any means, but I recall a discussion on this subject over on the Winchester Arms Collectors Association forum by many that are. In it they said that they have yet to come across an original 92 in 218 Bee, that all they had inspected were rebarrelled.

Thanks for the info Kevin -- I didn't realize that. Also didn't realize how few 218 Bees Winchester had made: I can't imagine that every boy in America in the 30's didn't dream of acquiring one. And maybe they did, but that was a time when dollars were scarce and were worth something.

And Aggie, as a reloader all your troubles are over. You probably won't find 218 Bee brass so will need to make it from 32/20 brass (which is now also made by Starline, so you can actually find it for sale when you need some). Be sure to get the brass stuff and not the nickle plated for forming. Then you don't screw the size die down quite all the way when you size the 32/20 down to 218 Bee -- you want to let it headspace on the shoulder. Just try one in the rifle. It should be too long to chamber. Just keep screwing the die down a little teeny bit at a time until they chamber easy, at which time you have brass custom made for your rifle, all excess headspace removed by your forming process. Here's what you'll have:

BeeFrom3220.jpg

I don't have any Starline brass, but both the WW and the R-P formed fine in one pass (no intermediate steps needed). The WW case on the left has a teeny extra shoulder that will straighten out in the first firing; the R-P brass on the right doesn't even have that extra shoulder and looks perfect.

Squeezing from .312 down to .224 thickens the case neck some. Depending on the tightness of your chamber in the neck area you may or may not need to turn a little brass off the neck so it will fit once a bullet is seated in the case. I'm guessing you won't because most chambers from our factories come a little generous there. My Browning 65 chambers these fine with a .225 cast bullet seated.

[Aggiecubpilot]

To update the thread, I looked up my serial number. 1910 is the date of manufacture according to both the savage99 site and Madis' The Winchester Book.

Since it's pre WW1, I'm guessing I wouldn't want to push a load beyond that of a (mild) 25/20 load. The intent has always been to shoot cast bullets out of the rifle anyway.

[marlinman93]

If you stick to your plan of mild cast bullet loads it should be OK. But since it's a used gun, I'd still have the headspace checked before even shooting mild loads, so you know if it's OK to start off with.