.223 reload POI (assessments)

[Old Savage]

First 223 experience as noted on the target which was shot at 50 yds. Lee Hand Press, Lee Collet die, Lee Factory Crimp die, Lee bullet seater. Pleased with the results but the variance in POI between the Sierra Bullet and the Hornady was surprising. Shot with an Interarms Mini Mauser 20" barrel.

Any experience in this regard?

[earlmck]

Wow! That's so different from my .223 (dang black thing) which seems to put all loads fairly close to the same POI. Your baby does seem to like the Sierra bullet and the 4895, though.

I have learned to expect the occasional surprise from changing loads, but your POI shift there from a couple of seemingly minor changes is very surprising -- I'd never have guessed that one!

[JReed]

They both have potential. 4895 is a great powder for 223 I use it all the time in botls and gas guns. Try not usin g the crimp die, as your shooting a bolt. I get best results in my 223 bolt when no crimp is used. What is the twist rate of your barrel? If you can get away with it the 69gr SMK is a solid performer in every 223 I have tried it in, it also does a number on coyotes.

[Old Savage]

Earl, me too, very surprised. Can't recall another instance and this was just 50 yds.

Jeremy, I will probably stick with that 50 gr Sierra load and procedure. But, I will try some variants with those Hornady bullets I have. The dies are from about 20 years ago. The new set I just got came with the 1.6 cc dipper rather than the 1.9cc in the old set. My twist is 1 in 12".

[Griff]

@ 1:12 I'd stick with the lighter bullets also. I've had really good luck w/CFE223.

[earlmck]

Thinking about this some more I realize that I see POI differences like that with some of my rifles, but only when shifting from jacketed loads to cast loads at waaay different velocity levels.

And your H380 load may be too low a pressure level for that powder to do its best work. The little 223 case is more suited to WW748 and similar, or that CFE223 like Griff says.

[Old Savage]

Earl, consulting Hodgdon manual #26 I find the two loads produce very similar velocity and pressure data albeit with 3.0 grains more H380. This taken fron the Lee conversions of 1.9cc of each to weight.

[Griff]

I looked it up in the Lyman #49 Manual, and they list no loads for H380. And using Lee's conversion chart, the H4895 load is just below max... 26.1 vs a max of 26.5 as a compressed load. However, flight characteristics for a HPBT vs a spritzer, could account for some POI change, and if the two charges have significant different burning characteristics, such as a compressed charge may develop pressure slower, it could exacerbate such differences in flight.

With H380 being #107 and H4895 being #88 on Hodgdon's burn rate chart, I can't see them giving similar pressures with the difference in charge weight as indicated on the Lee conversion chart. Even with the H4895 being a compressed charge. Now, I could be mistaken, as I'm no physics master, but...

[Old Savage]

Of course Griff, but 29.0 gr of H380 vs 26.0. gr of H4895 according to Hodgdon 26 looks quite similar in velocity and pressure. Jamison found with the Ohleur 43 that the exit pressure was the most crucial issue but here I am trying to work witb the available facts.

[Griff]

Of course Griff, but 29.0 gr of H380 vs 26.0. gr of H4895 according to Hodgdon 26 looks quite similar in velocity and pressure. Jamison found with the Ohleur 43 that the exit pressure was the most crucial issue but here I am trying to work witb the available facts.

Aye, but a 1.9mm volume only gives 27.5 grains of H380...

[Old Savage]

Not according to the data and the dipper that came with the dies.

[Old Savage]

However, I see you may have gotten your data from the calculator.

[Old Savage]

Or 28.5 if you like from the data with the new dies.

[Sixgun]

OS,
---been upstate at the Regional Champs...yea, I blew it...again.....but anyway, back to your issue.....I've shot tens of thousands of .223 out of various AR's and have never seen such a dramatic change of POI at such a short range. In fact, I can usually change bullet weight and brand and come reasonable close to clay birds on the bank at 500 meters.

Try this....seat your bullets out as far as the action will allow you. This can be farther than MOL sometimes. Different ogives from different bullets will contact the rifling at different distances so don't seat them all the same..........seat as far out as the action will allow you with each brand of bullet. Freebore......the distance that the bullet travels before engaging the rifling upon ignition ........will dramatically affect the way the bullet enters the concentric part of the bore and this will easily change the point of impact.

Just a thought bro..............and....... BY THE WAY ALL OF YOU MF's...............................I AM OFFICIALLY

RETIRED!!!!!!!!!. "The Gunny" tells me that I am retarded and not retired.....well, if "The Gunny" tells me that, it must be true-------6

[Old Savage]

Congrats on that retirement. Now a new era begins.

Why the deviance on the Hornady BTs ??? I get what you are saying but don't know what to think about how that could produce such a consistent deviation. The factory Fed FMJBTs which are similar more match the Sierra SPTs in POI. I am still very suprised with the two reload groups considering how imprecise steps seemed with the hand press and the dipper. And, the seating stage realky seemed haphazzard. Many possibilities could be tried but I am setting up my Rockchucker and will likely try that next in my condo reloading system.

Here is the rifle.

[Griff]

I used the Lee Dipper chart @ http://leeprecision.com/cgi-data/instruct/Dippers.pdf. But, if I were to use the dippers, I'd be sure to check the weights actually thrown... Aye, what Sixgun said on seating depth.

[Old Savage]

Griff, I have one of those and saw that was likely your source. Changing the Hornady seating depth would be the easiest check there. Maybe I will also change powders, but not on the same trial.

[Old Savage]

I really was just trying so see if the hand press/dipper system was viable for any accuracy, a minimalist approach. I don't have a scale here and did not have a chamfer tool to help in seating. I was shocked shocked I tell you that the groups were better than any of the three factory loads I tried. Today I am setting the Rock Chucker up on a Franklin Arsenal pedestal stand.

[Griff]

Back when I went out to the Inaugural Billy Dixon Shoot in CO, I took along my Sharps, (.40-90BN), a lb. of FFg, 100 primed, sized & belled cases, 100 cast bullets (pre-lubed), and the Lee Hand Press with seater die and universal decapping die. I used a standard BP volumetric measure and loaded 85 grains of powder on the range, seated the bullets, taking care to only remove the bell, not crimping. My sights were too short for anything over about 800 yards, so on the 1,000 yard bear and 1538 yard Indians, I was just a'guessin'. But, at the shorter ranges, the Lee Hand press worked fabulously, seating was consistent, uniform and ammo as good as any loaded on the Ruck Chucker or my other two presses. (Although they are far more convenient)!

[sore shoulder]

Those dippers have a reputation for being more accurate than a powder measure. Some of the most consistent loads I've ever made were with those dippers.

[JReed]

Another good powder that is often over looked and I like alot for the 50-55 gr pills is IMR4320.
From my own experience your groups will get better with out the crimp. I used to crimp 223 until a friend said to try with out went from shooting .75 to grouping .5 or less at 100 with the same powder charges and components. The best I was able to get with factory non match ammo out of my Savage was 1" so not supprised that you are getting better results with your loads.

[Old Savage]

Not unhappy with the groups but questioning why their POI is so different. As a test I have loaded some of the deviant group with the same powder charge but substituting in a Sierra 53 gr. HPBT. A friend who is a competition shooter suggests barrel harmonics. I will try your suggestion but only changing one variable here next..

[sore shoulder]

OS, have you tried repeating this? what I mean is, if that was a new rifle and scope, the poi shift might have been the scope moving or readjusting. I have a habit of tapping scopes after adjusting them for just that reason. Prob not your prob but its a thought.

[Old Savage]

I think I have covered those options ss.

[Old Savage]

New tests to clear some of this up. Any bets, clue, nothing to do with eliminating factory crimp die.

[Griff]

Not unhappy with the groups but questioning why their POI is so different. As a test I have loaded some of the deviant group with the same powder charge but substituting in a Sierra 53 gr. HPBT. A friend who is a competition shooter suggests barrel harmonics. I will try your suggestion but only changing one variable here next..

Yep, I can see that. And changing only one component will point you in the right direction to identify the reason.

[Old Savage]

Similar loads 1.9cc H380. With the HP Match bullets then used the same charge with a 50 gr. Sierra Spt.

[Old Savage]

Control group Fed FMJBT which the rifle is sighted for and no factory crimp with the 1.6cc dipper the new dies came with.

[sore shoulder]

I think I have covered those options ss.

Fair enough. Carry on sir.

[Old Savage]

That was originally a problem. I went through each screw in the base and the rings.

[Lefty Dude]

When I had my Remington 600 Mohawk 223, my accuracy and hunting load was;

RP cases
Federal 205M primer
Nosler 60 gr. BTS
26 gr. W 748 powder
Max. OAL, 2.350", with the above bullet.

This was my Javalina hunting load. I shot a pig at 350 yards with this round, in a sitting position.
This load shot tinny groups at 100 yards.

This load would not shoot well in my Ruger Mini-14 at all, even with the bullet seated and adjusted for the Mini.
Tried this in other 223 bolt guns, poor groups. This load I tailored just for this Rifle.

[Old Savage]

Nice!

[Old Savage]

Little more info on these targets.

[Old Savage]

Either HP match bullet with 1.9cc of H380 was low and left but grouped well. Change either the bullet to the Sierra Spt 50 gr. or the powder to H4895 or both and the group moves up and more or less centered.

On the lower target above I fired a couple of left over loads at the center of the black design which tends to confirm this.

[Griff]

[Old Savage]

Well Griff, I am about to start a new chapter with this rifle. It was free floated except for contact under the chamber which was not entirely even. I took it out of the stock and evened up that contact. I found it is pillar bedded. Sooo .... I will be testing that change.

[Old Savage]

Here you go Griff. I always like it when an accuracy experiment doesn't mess anything up.