.44 WCF black powder and compression

[Carlsen Highway]

Guys,

I have been shooting black powder .44-40's for the first time in my Rossi 92 - quite as accurate as my smokeless load, and much more impressive when it goes off!

I have been shooting 36 grains of a locally made FFFG black powder, which chronographs 1170fps out of my 20 inch carbine.

When people said BP was dirty, I had no idea they meant that much sooty fouling, its all over my hands, my face, I have been wiping patches in between groups and I can feel it in the bore...but with a reasonably clean barrel I can shoot one inch groups at 60 yards.

Tonight I have loaded up 40 gains of the same powder in my Starline brass, and with the 200 grain bullet it is compressed by .120", or 1/8th of an inch. Does that sound about right?

[w30wcf]

Carlson Highway,
Their are some variables to how much compression is needed....
>Case manufacturer (R-P 44-40 cases have the most capacity)
>Bullet seating depth
>Brand of b.p. - higher density = less compression / lower density = more compression

That being said, in Starline Brass, using 40 grs. by weight of Swiss brand powder (higher density) and a bullet with a .37" seating depth, I find that compression is .20" on a settled charge.

One can check compression by taking a fired case with the crimp ironed out so that a bullet is a slip fit in the case neck. Place the powder into the case, then settle it by tapping on the side of the case several times (or dump the powder slowly through the funnel, holding the powder pan 4-5" above the funnel).
Place the bullet on top of the powder and measure the cartridge length (OAL). Subtract the standard cartridge length from that dimension = Compression.

When people said BP was dirty, I had no idea they meant that much sooty fouling, its all over my hands, my face, I have been wiping patches in between groups and I can feel it in the bore...Using commercial grade b.p.

Using commercial grades of b.p., I have not experienced any transfer of soot to my skin when handling it. If you are using a bullet that is carrying enough of the right type of lube, fouling in the bore should be minimal and accuracy will be maintained for 50+ rounds with any of these type bullets......



Have fun!
w30wcf

[Sixgun]

Highwayman,
Take my word for it.....ole w30wcf knows what he is talking about. I've seen him shoot 50 straight without cleaning......and the bore still shines. Besides, I have never seen a guy who reloads his own .22 rimfire with bp and consistently hits what he is aiming at...shot after shot-------6

[Carlsen Highway]

Thanks,

The bullet I am loading at the moment is a metal patched one....a 200 grain Hornady XTP. Everything seems fine except there is a lot of fouling in the bore, in my opinion. (Having nothing to compare it with, this is the first time I have shot black powder.) It cleans up easy enough though, with hot water.

I have still had no luck with getting the 215 grain 429666 bullet to shoot with any load, smokeless or black powder will not give me better than four inch groups at 60 yards. I wish I could use one of those bullets you pictured, but casting is witchcraft to me. Maybe I should consider learning something new, and buying a mold of one of these.

[Chuck 100 yd]

With black powder, one important function of the bullet lube is to keep the fouling soft. With jacketed (metal patched) bullets there is no lube to help with hard fouling and accuracy goes south fast.
But, since you already live in the south , maybe that don't matter.

[Carlsen Highway]

I am about as far south as you can get without going north again. I think I will give up on jacketed bullets with black powder, the fouling is so much I cant see how you can shoot more than three or four rounds.

But good news - I have found another bag of cast bullets I had put by for such a day as this....they are 217 grain .429 Elmer Keith type bullets 429421 style, I initially tried them with smokeless loads a while back, but the crimp was in the wrong place to cycle through my lever action, so I put them aside. With Black powder I can load them and crimp in the front band and now they will feed properly.
I have high hopes for these, and have loaded some up with 36 grains, 38 grains and 40 grains. The compression ranges from .120 to 2.0 with 40 grains - no more than W30WCF described, so I think I am good. Very curious to see how these go.

(Do I even need a crimp? Was the old '73 Wincheser ammo crimped? I do it so the edge of the case mouth doesn't catch on anything when it is feeding, and because I have a Lee die and because I always have done it. But I wonder if it is necessary. Would it help get a better burn? Does it make any difference with BP?)

[Chuck 100 yd]

The case full of powder will support the bullet in the magazine and a snug bullet fit in the case should be enough to give good accuracy. The next problem is the type of lube those bullets have on them. Smokless lube and BP dont get along well together most of the time. A soft lube ment for BP is the way to go. Have fun!

Many long range BP target shooters seat the bullet by pushing it in the case using finger pressure only.

[Carlsen Highway]

So I need a different lube too?
(Its green if that means anything...)

[Chuck 100 yd]

Yes, the hard wax/crayon type smokeless lubes normaly found on commercial cast bullets is not what you want for shooting BP. SPG is the lube I use for BP. You can boil those bullets to melt that lube off and it will float on top of the water. After it cools it will be easy to remove. You can pan lube your bullets with home made BP lube. There are many formulas that can be made from ingrediants that are easily available. Check the web for them. I have had great results with tallow/bees wax mixes.

[M. M. Wright]

1/8th inch compression is good but if you're going to shoot jacketed bullets you need a grease cookie under it. I make my own lube from toilet bowl rings (waxes) and just a bit of olive oil. You can pour that molten liquid onto a waxed paper in the bottom of a bisket pan. Let it harden and I use a rolling pin and another piece of waxed paper over it to get it to a uniform thickness of about 3/16s. Prime, powder, wad, then use the case mouth to cut a grease cookie, then back in the press for the bullet. Yeah, it's a lot of trouble but it's the only war to get it to keep shooting. Cast bullets are much easier. I use Goex ffg in my 44-40s and my Colts will shoot 5 oe 6 stages with no problem. My 73 gets wiped between stages though since it's hard to get enough lube to carry out the end of the barrel. You need enough to make that grease star on the muzzle.

[Griff]

Carlsen, I've translated this for ya!

1/8th inch compression is good but if you're going to shoot jacketed bullets you need a grease cookie under it. I make my own lube from toilet bowl rings (waxes) and just a bit of olive oil. You can pour that molten liquid onto a waxed paper in the bottom of a bisket(cookie sheet) pan. Let it harden and I use a rolling pin and another piece of waxed paper over it to get it to a uniform thickness of about 3/16s. Prime, powder, wad, (over powder card, you want it cut from a waxed paper card so the grease doesn't soak thru and contaminate the powder, you can also use a card cut from HDPE; I buy my mild in the waxed carton, vs. plastic jugs) then use the case mouth to cut a grease cookie, then back in the press for the bullet. Yeah, it's a lot of trouble but it's the only war to get it to keep shooting. Cast bullets are much easier. (But... some bullets meant for smokeless have too small lube grooves, and won't carry the lube to the end of the barrel) I use Goex ffg in my 44-40s and my Colts will shoot 5 oe 6 stages with no problem. My 73 gets wiped between stages though since it's hard to get enough lube to carry out the end of the barrel. You need enough to make that grease star on the muzzle.

Which is why the bullets 30WCF showed work such a treat with BP!

[Carlsen Highway]

Thanks guys this is all a great help.

I went back and shot the Elmer Keith bullets with the commercial smokeless lube it they came with, (I loaded them before reading Chucks post last night) and as was pointed out, fouling was extreme and just as bad as before, three shots and Ihave hard fouling at the muzzle and poor accuracy. But cleaning between each three shot group I still figure that 36 grains is the best load accuracywise and with a cleanish bore can get 1.5 inch groups at 60 yards, which is encouraging.
38 grain and 40 grains did not shoot well.
This might all be more accurate if the bullets had proper BP lube on them?

Interestingly,
36g chrono's at 1169fps
38g at 1186 fps
40g at 1183 fps

I have decided I am going to get a melter and a mold for proper .44WCF bullets. There is a scrap metal dealer in town, I bet he has lead.

Meanwhile I am going to try a grease cookie with my jacketed bullets....

[Griff]

You'll find all your necessary homework @ http://www.lasc.us/ArticleIndex.htm

[Carlsen Highway]

Thank you that's excellent, I will read through those articles.

(Griff, what is HDPE?)

[M. M. Wright]

Make or buy a properly sized punch and cut your own over powder cards from waxed paper milk cartons. Today it's probably easier to find OJ in the paper cartons. Or just buy the correct ones from John Walters. He'll sell you tin to get the proper alloy from that scrap lead.

[w30wcf]

Thanks guys this is all a great help.

I went back and shot the Elmer Keith bullets with the commercial smokeless lube it they came with, (I loaded them before reading Chucks post last night) and as was pointed out, fouling was extreme and just as bad as before, three shots and Ihave hard fouling at the muzzle and poor accuracy. But cleaning between each three shot group I still figure that 36 grains is the best load accuracywise and with a cleanish bore can get 1.5 inch groups at 60 yards, which is encouraging.
38 grain and 40 grains did not shoot well.
This might all be more accurate if the bullets had proper BP lube on them?

Interestingly,
36g chrono's at 1169fps
38g at 1186 fps
40g at 1183 fps

I have decided I am going to get a melter and a mold for proper .44WCF bullets. There is a scrap metal dealer in town, I bet he has lead.

Meanwhile I am going to try a grease cookie with my jacketed bullets....

This might all be more accurate if the bullets had proper BP lube on them?

Yes , that would certainly help but, depending on the quality of the b.p., you might get decent accuracy for maybe half a dozen rounds or several magazines full. If Swiss powder is available in your area, and you give it a try, then you should experience good accuracy for a number of rounds if you are lubing with a b.p. lube.

I wonder about the quality of the b.p. you are using since additional powder is actually decreasing the velocity. With a 210-215 gr. bullet, 36 grs of Swiss FFG produced 1,322 f.p.s. and 40 grs. 1,379 f.p.s. with good accuracy for many shots in a in 24" barrel (about 30 f.p.s. less in a 20" barrel).

In case you missed it, here is my experience with b.p. in the .44-40.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=62009

Good luck.
w30wcf

[GunnyMack]

I believe High Density Poly Ethaline (spelling?)