38 special and 44 special RNFP Home defense ammo out of carbines

[bcraig]

Been thinking more about about self defense ammo out of a 16 inch barreled Rossi 92 38 Special
And out of a 16 inch Barreled Rossi 92 44 Special

For general shooting in the back yard and to keep both Carbines Loaded with inside the House for home defense
I am wanting to keep the Performance Subsonic to cut down on the noise and recoil and only use the Magnums in case I want to deer hunt again.

Would any of the RNFP ammo available give expansion when shot from the 16 inch barreled carbines and still stay subsonic?
Also does anyone make this RNFP in a hollowpoint?

Thanks

[Sarge]

I believe Hornady FTX will meet your needs, with a rubber tip that should be safe in tube magazines.

[bcraig]

I believe Hornady FTX will meet your needs, with a rubber tip that should be safe in tube magazines.

Will it stay subsonic from the 16 inch barrel?

Thanks

[Ray]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EKnmMN167 ... luZQ%3D%3D

In this test, the tried and true "fbi load" averaged 1,081 fps.

[Leverluver]

FTX makes a good 357-140 and a 200 or 225 for the 44 that would work well at the speeds you want BUT you will have to load them; no ammo available. Unaware of any FTX 44sp at all. The 38sp is only a 110 gr that would certainly be supersonic from 16". Plus it's a different FTX that isn't really made for tube magazines.
No ammo maker is going to make slow hollow points just so they stay subsonic from rifles. That's counter productive to the point of them in the first place which is to drive the HP fast so it will expand better.
I would not try standard hollow points with sharp nose edges (i.e. ash cans) in a tube magazines.
No, never seen a hollow point RNFP but that doesn't mean you couldn't make one. Again, reload only, no ammo.
Desperado bullets makes all their bullets out of soft alloy (I think 1/20) that would likely upset okay at 1100 but, again, load your own, no ammo.
I doubt you will find over the counter ammo that fit your criteria.

[GunnyMack]

148 gr hollow base wad cutter in the 38.
Remington had a 44 240gr semi jacket hp that probably work fairly well at special velocities but again you would have to load your own.
Haven't seen those 44 bullets in a long time...

[JimT]

Why would you want expansion? Inquiring minds want to know .....

[bcraig]

FTX makes a good 357-140 and a 200 or 225 for the 44 that would work well at the speeds you want BUT you will have to load them; no ammo available. Unaware of any FTX 44sp at all. The 38sp is only a 110 gr that would certainly be supersonic from 16". Plus it's a different FTX that isn't really made for tube magazines.

I believe there a Hornady 165 Grain FTX 44 special ,It is Supersonic though as it is over 1,100 Feet per second.

No ammo maker is going to make slow hollow points just so they stay subsonic from rifles. That's counter productive to the point of them in the first place which is to drive the HP fast so it will expand better.

There is a whole cottage industry that specializes in subsonic ammo for rifles and pistols and some of it hollowpoints.
The Point may be just to get Expansion at all within the sound and design parameters
There are Quite a few 38 special factory ammo loads that are subsonic from pistols some even down to 700 fps so I dont think that such low pressure rounds would gain enough velocity from a carbine to be over 1,100 (roughly the speed of sound).
I dont know know that for sure not having a chronograph Just a guess.

I would not try standard hollow points with sharp nose edges (i.e. ash cans) in a tube magazines.
That sounds like real good advice in general

No, never seen a hollow point RNFP but that doesn't mean you couldn't make one. Again, reload only, no ammo.

As I understand the RNFP is a real good design for the Pistol caliber lever action rifle and carbine
I have not been able to find any RNFP Hollowpoint Ammo in either 38 special or 44 special but do know that there is a large amount of knowledge and experience on the forum and perhaps someone here know"s of such a round in factory ammo.
Although I have never seen one other that in pictures or on the internet that there used to be a tool that I think was called a Georg Hollowpointer that one could use on loaded rounds
I believe it worked with a case trimmer.


Desperado bullets makes all their bullets out of soft alloy (I think 1/20) that would likely upset okay at 1100 but, again, load your own, no ammo.
I will check them out ,Thanks
If It comes down to it I would start reloading again

I doubt you will find over the counter ammo that fit your criteria.

Thanks

[bcraig]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EKnmMN167 ... luZQ%3D%3D

In this test, the tried and true "fbi load" averaged 1,081 fps.

Yes, he does some good test and and that load looks like it would very well for what I am looking for
And the 38 special in my carbine will cycle although a tad sticky
I am just thinking that the RNFP might function more smoothly

I have not tries the 44 special in the 44 carbine yet

Thanks

[bcraig]

148 gr hollow base wad cutter in the 38.
Remington had a 44 240gr semi jacket hp that probably work fairly well at special velocities but again you would have to load your own.
Haven't seen those 44 bullets in a long time...

I have about 75 of the 38 special wadcutters from back in my teens but would have to single load them in the carbine.
Not a good combo home defense !
Seems like I remember Speer used to make 3/4 Jacket pistol ammo ?

Thanks

[bcraig]

Why would you want expansion? Inquiring minds want to know .....

Aw, I dont know Jim
Probably a regular RNFP would work fine for Home defense in both calibers especially the 44
I am Just thinking a RNFP with a Hollowpoint that would expand would be more better

[GunnyMack]

148 gr hollow base wad cutter in the 38.
Remington had a 44 240gr semi jacket hp that probably work fairly well at special velocities but again you would have to load your own.
Haven't seen those 44 bullets in a long time...

I have about 75 of the 38 special wadcutters from back in my teens but would have to single load them in the carbine.
Not a good combo home defense !
Seems like I remember Speer used to make 3/4 Jacket pistol ammo ?

Thanks

Seat them out further , might feed fine...?

[bcraig]

148 gr hollow base wad cutter in the 38.
Remington had a 44 240gr semi jacket hp that probably work fairly well at special velocities but again you would have to load your own.
Haven't seen those 44 bullets in a long time...

I have about 75 of the 38 special wadcutters from back in my teens but would have to single load them in the carbine.
Not a good combo home defense !
Seems like I remember Speer used to make 3/4 Jacket pistol ammo ?

Thanks

Seat them out further , might feed fine...?

I haven't reloaded in years,but if I decided to again that would be sweet if they would but I doubt it, but they work fine of course in a Nickle 586 I have and also in a Stainless 642 I gave Momma to keep loaded beside her bed.

[JimT]

Why would you want expansion? Inquiring minds want to know .....

Aw, I dont know Jim
Probably a regular RNFP would work fine for Home defense in both calibers especially the 44
I am Just thinking a RNFP with a Hollowpoint that would expand would be more better

Expansion does not always help and in some situations has negative results. The one thing that works is accurate shot placement.

[bcraig]

Why would you want expansion? Inquiring minds want to know .....

Aw, I dont know Jim
Probably a regular RNFP would work fine for Home defense in both calibers especially the 44
I am Just thinking a RNFP with a Hollowpoint that would expand would be more better

Expansion does not always help and in some situations has negative results. The one thing that works is accurate shot placement.

True about expansion and the situations sometimes having negative results however like almost everything in life there are exceptions
to the rule.
I would not want to lose the penetration required to penetrate to the vitals from any angle in a quest to get expansion
but as long as I can get that penetration needed first and formost then I would like to get expansion to to cause more tissue destruction and blood loss


And true also that accurate shot placement works, however even with accurate shot placement,
I would much rather shoot a deer in the Lungs with a 240 JHP 44 Magnum than a .223 FMJ in the Lungs with the same shot placement.
And by and large would expect the deer to drop faster with the 240 JHP 44 Magnum than with the .223 that penciled through


I think that Emer Keith even like some expansion from what I have read ,in some circumstances

I remember a telephone conversation I had with JD Jones I had many years ago where I was asking him about one of his cast bullet molds for use on deer and he said basically why give up the expansion that a 240 Gr Hollowpoint gives when the penetration of ,I am thinking it was a 340 grain bullet mold I was asking about that the bullets that it produced would give way more penetration than needed for deer.
I think one of those bullets were what he used on his Elephants taken with a 44 magnum pistol.
Essentially the only way that he could be assured of enough Penetration was to use a non expanding bullet
I am sure that he forgot about having the phone call from me as it probably meant more to me to talk to him with his expertise than it meant to him to be talking to me who just had about a zillion questions !

I think I understand where you are coming from though, in that accurate shot placement is a greater predicter of results than expansion of bullets by and large .


I appreciate your Input,Advice and Help

Thanks

[mickbr]

The reality is most expanding bullets for 44 will not expand subsonically. I would say the only RNFP that would expand low speed are very soft cast and I dont know a lot about them so cant comment. For jacketed bullets your best bet is the JHP designed for 44 special velicotes. I did a bit of study of expanding subsonic bullets in 357 and 44mag as I use them on smallish hogs at night over baits to keep noise down. Ones that will are as follows in order of ease of expansion.

Speer 200 grain gold dot JHP, the Sb( short barrel) version projectile. Will expand around 800fps impact, reaches 70cal diametre in the mid 800's impact,
Hornady 200 xtp, will expand modestly in the low 900's
Hornady 180xtp, actually slightly tougher bullet than the 200, will start to expand under 1000fps.
Barnes 200gn XPB, expands around 1000fps.

There are likely others, but the above are the ones I have tested.

The other XTP and FTX bullets( 225, 240gn and 300gn) will NOT expand subsonically, they are tougher bullets. Similarly any regular jacketed softpoint( non hollowpoint) is going to be too tough.

My own choice is the 200 grain gold dot mentioned above. Run it about 1000fps and its low noise and thumps well. For the record it will handle velocities to about 1200fps impact after which it fragments. If your gun doesnt like feeding that wide hollowpoint, try the 200XTP and 180XTP which have much narrower nose profiles

[Ray]

"I would much rather shoot a deer in the Lungs with a 240 JHP 44 Magnum than a .223 FMJ in the Lungs with the same shot placement.
And by and large would expect the deer to drop faster with the 240 JHP 44 Magnum than with the .223 that penciled through"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KVa_I3YdC ... VzdA%3D%3D

The fmj, match hollow point and soft nosed spire point all seem to perform similarly in jello at least. It has been proven over and over that fmj from a rifle at + 2,400 fps impact yaw, tumble then the open base expands/mushrooms.

[bcraig]

The reality is most expanding bullets for 44 will not expand subsonically. I would say the only RNFP that would expand low speed are very soft cast and I dont know a lot about them so cant comment. For jacketed bullets your best bet is the JHP designed for 44 special velicotes. I did a bit of study of expanding subsonic bullets in 357 and 44mag as I use them on smallish hogs at night over baits to keep noise down. Ones that will are as follows in order of ease of expansion.

Speer 200 grain gold dot JHP, the Sb( short barrel) version projectile. Will expand around 800fps impact, reaches 70cal diametre in the mid 800's impact,
Hornady 200 xtp, will expand modestly in the low 900's
Hornady 180xtp, actually slightly tougher bullet than the 200, will start to expand under 1000fps.
Barnes 200gn XPB, expands around 1000fps.

There are likely others, but the above are the ones I have tested.

The other XTP and FTX bullets( 225, 240gn and 300gn) will NOT expand subsonically, they are tougher bullets. Similarly any regular jacketed softpoint( non hollowpoint) is going to be too tough.

My own choice is the 200 grain gold dot mentioned above. Run it about 1000fps and its low noise and thumps well. For the record it will handle velocities to about 1200fps impact after which it fragments. If your gun doesnt like feeding that wide hollowpoint, try the 200XTP and 180XTP which have much narrower nose profiles

I went to a Speer.com website and it says the 200 grain 44 special gold dot ammo not available and when I went to midwayusa it says discontinued,went to hornady website and only 44 special ammo it shows is the 44 special 165 grain ftx

[bcraig]

"I would much rather shoot a deer in the Lungs with a 240 JHP 44 Magnum than a .223 FMJ in the Lungs with the same shot placement.
And by and large would expect the deer to drop faster with the 240 JHP 44 Magnum than with the .223 that penciled through"

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KVa_I3YdC ... VzdA%3D%3D

The fmj, match hollow point and soft nosed spire point all seem to perform similarly in jello at least. It has been proven over and over that fmj from a rifle at + 2,400 fps impact yaw, tumble then the open base expands/mushrooms.

Well actuall what I said was I would rather have the 240 jhp than a .223 THAT PENCILED THROUGH I said nothing about a .223 bullet that did not pencil through.
Not All .223 loads will do what he showed.
It is dependent on trust range ,whether or not the bullets tumble or yaw .
Even if they did note that he said there is no depending on that happening.BUT even if it did note the lack of penetration not enough for even the best penetrating ammo to reliably penetrateto the vitals of a man unless only a straight on shot is needed .
And I feel like that also applies to game animals

And I have yet to see that .223 proven over and over again in any type of testing at +2400 FPS impact,yaw tumble then the open base expands/mushrooms.

All bullets do not tumble in gelatin or expand in gell
How many .FMJ
223 bullets have an open base
From what I have observed there are few or no bullets that expand the base,they may or may not expand Down to the base though.

Gel does not have actually represent the depth of penetration with some saying that gel on serves as a somewhat consistent medium to compare against other bullets gets about only half the penetration that it would get in meat bone and skin,I don’t know as there are way to many variables involved.

When I used the example of MYSELF feeling more confident in dropping a deer faster that was said from the context of feeling that once a certain amount of penetration was met that more expansion was better in my opinion.
Maybe a different way of putting things would be to say that assuming the same velocity and enough penetration ,I would rather hit a deer with an expanded .430 bullet than an expanded .223 bullet.
Regardless we just have different opinions based on different criteria.
As the old saying goes we can agree to disagree.

Thanks

[samsi]

Buffalo Bore lists a "Heavy" 44 Special 180 jhp at 1200 from a 6". Probably 1450-1500 from a Trapper, definitely not subsonic but I bet it's a good load.

[1894cfan]

Seems like I remember Speer used to make 3/4 Jacket pistol ammo ?

Yup, 146gr HP and a 160 SWC! Wish they still made those! If I remember right, both of those were swaged bullets, like the .308 110HP varmint bullets that work great in 30 Carbine, and which they still make from time to time.

[Bruce in WV]

XTP bullets feed very reliably in my Marlin 1894, like my practice RNFP’s, and are designed to expand at very low velocities, as low as 700 fps in the 38’s and 750 fps in the 44’s.

[piller]

Make sure it cycles. You don't want to have some hobgoblin shooting at you when you are fighting a jam.

[bcraig]

Buffalo Bore lists a "Heavy" 44 Special 180 jhp at 1200 from a 6". Probably 1450-1500 from a Trapper, definitely not subsonic but I bet it's a good load.

Yep I am sure they are but I really want subsonic and less recoil

Thank's

[bcraig]

Seems like I remember Speer used to make 3/4 Jacket pistol ammo ?

Yup, 146gr HP and a 160 SWC! Wish they still made those! If I remember right, both of those were swaged bullets, like the .308 110HP varmint bullets that work great in 30 Carbine, and which they still make from time to time.

Yep, I still have an old dog eared Speer Reloading manual #10 that has shed its covers has missing pages and a lot of pages with pencil writing on them,and Jack O'conners article about pressures along with pictures of him and his wife on Safari and Vernon Speer in his favorite seat,as the pilot in a plane.

[bcraig]

XTP bullets feed very reliably in my Marlin 1894, like my practice RNFP’s, and are designed to expand at very low velocities, as low as 700 fps in the 38’s and 750 fps in the 44’s.

Thank's

[bcraig]

Make sure it cycles. You don't want to have some hobgoblin shooting at you when you are fighting a jam.

No doubt!

But truth is I always Have a couple of pistols on me as I believe highly in a New York Reload unless I am sitting my old Butt in a Bathtub of hot water to help my back and neck ,then they are not on me but on the edge of the tub.

Bathroom is one of the most vunerable places in the house,one door in one door out .
Dont want to get caught empty handed in the tub if a thief and possibly a killer were to pick that time to break in.

Also dont want to be sitting on the pot with the same scenario.

[mickbr]

XTP bullets feed very reliably in my Marlin 1894, like my practice RNFP’s, and are designed to expand at very low velocities, as low as 700 fps in the 38’s and 750 fps in the 44’s.

those velocity envelope charts by hornady are totally gooned up. NO XTP, FTX or otherwise expand as low as 700fps.

The 140xtp in 357 is a lot harder than the 158xtp nose. The latter will expand below the speed of sound, the former will not. In fact the only 357 XTP expanding under 1000fps is the 158xtp.
The 44 cal projectile lower envelopes are a mess as well. Eg the300xtp at high 800's needs another 200fps in reality. Read my post earlier regards the bullets that will more likely expand under the speed of sound in 44cal

[mickbr]

The reality is most expanding bullets for 44 will not expand subsonically. I would say the only RNFP that would expand low speed are very soft cast and I dont know a lot about them so cant comment. For jacketed bullets your best bet is the JHP designed for 44 special velicotes. I did a bit of study of expanding subsonic bullets in 357 and 44mag as I use them on smallish hogs at night over baits to keep noise down. Ones that will are as follows in order of ease of expansion.

Speer 200 grain gold dot JHP, the Sb( short barrel) version projectile. Will expand around 800fps impact, reaches 70cal diametre in the mid 800's impact,
Hornady 200 xtp, will expand modestly in the low 900's
Hornady 180xtp, actually slightly tougher bullet than the 200, will start to expand under 1000fps.
Barnes 200gn XPB, expands around 1000fps.

There are likely others, but the above are the ones I have tested.

The other XTP and FTX bullets( 225, 240gn and 300gn) will NOT expand subsonically, they are tougher bullets. Similarly any regular jacketed softpoint( non hollowpoint) is going to be too tough.

My own choice is the 200 grain gold dot mentioned above. Run it about 1000fps and its low noise and thumps well. For the record it will handle velocities to about 1200fps impact after which it fragments. If your gun doesnt like feeding that wide hollowpoint, try the 200XTP and 180XTP which have much narrower nose profiles

I went to a Speer.com website and it says the 200 grain 44 special gold dot ammo not available and when I went to midwayusa it says discontinued,went to hornady website and only 44 special ammo it shows is the 44 special 165 grain ftx

I was talking about projectiles and I would not be sure that all 44 special ammunition stays subsonic in a carbine.. The 165FTX in particular may break the sound barrier in the longer barrel. You are better off rolling your own.

[Bruce in WV]

The 38 special 135gr Gold Dot short barrel is available. It seems to meet most/all? of your criteria if it will feed in your gun.
Search ammoseek.dot on 38 special/135 grs and it shows only one dealer with it in stock (https://www.308ammo.com/SPEER-38-SPECIA ... aid=as0005).

The same search engine shows several dealers with the 200gr Gold Dot 44 special in stock.

[JFE]

I think it might be difficult finding what you are looking for in factory ammo. A soft cast HP at subsonic speeds will do what you want but not only will you need to reload, you will also need to cast your own bullets. Mould makers like MP-Molds and NOE should be able to provide the style of mould you would need.

I’ve been developing such loads but for hunting. Over here it is almost impossible to obtain a sound moderator without jumping through a lot of hoops. We have a lot of deer in urban areas that are a nuisance and cause damage. On smaller allotments firing full power loads is not an option and would draw a lot of unwanted attention, even when we have public place permits. My solution is to use a large calibre and make up loads using heavy, soft HP bullets loaded to subsonic speeds. The loads are not very noisey but are very effective. The bullets sail through the deer and judging by the internal damage, are clearly expanding and shedding the nose/HP. There is no returning from a 45 or 50 cal hole in the chest.

You could try posting a wanted advert on the cast boolit web site. There are plenty of members and you might find someone prepared to make a batch for you. Then have them loaded to your specs.

[bcraig]

I think it might be difficult finding what you are looking for in factory ammo. A soft cast HP at subsonic speeds will do what you want but not only will you need to reload, you will also need to cast your own bullets. Mould makers like MP-Molds and NOE should be able to provide the style of mould you would need.

I’ve been developing such loads but for hunting. Over here it is almost impossible to obtain a sound moderator without jumping through a lot of hoops. We have a lot of deer in urban areas that are a nuisance and cause damage. On smaller allotments firing full power loads is not an option and would draw a lot of unwanted attention, even when we have public place permits. My solution is to use a large calibre and make up loads using heavy, soft HP bullets loaded to subsonic speeds. The loads are not very noisey but are very effective. The bullets sail through the deer and judging by the internal damage, are clearly expanding and shedding the nose/HP. There is no returning from a 45 or 50 cal hole in the chest.

You could try posting a wanted advert on the cast boolit web site. There are plenty of members and you might find someone prepared to make a batch for you. Then have them loaded to your specs.

Yes, I used to cast my own bullets and load them as well but that has been years ago and just dont want to do it any more.


I sure would like it if I could find soft cast Factory Ammo that would be subsonic from the 16 inch barrels on my carbines .
I haven't been able to so far ,I might be able to do what you suggested though.

Thanks

[Bronco]

I am repeating myself here!
Look for either 38 special or 357 or 44 special or 44 mag cowboy ammo. Lead bullet and low velocity. Plenty of factory ammo to choose from!

[mickbr]

I think it might be difficult finding what you are looking for in factory ammo. A soft cast HP at subsonic speeds will do what you want but not only will you need to reload, you will also need to cast your own bullets. Mould makers like MP-Molds and NOE should be able to provide the style of mould you would need.

I’ve been developing such loads but for hunting. Over here it is almost impossible to obtain a sound moderator without jumping through a lot of hoops. We have a lot of deer in urban areas that are a nuisance and cause damage. On smaller allotments firing full power loads is not an option and would draw a lot of unwanted attention, even when we have public place permits. My solution is to use a large calibre and make up loads using heavy, soft HP bullets loaded to subsonic speeds. The loads are not very noisey but are very effective. The bullets sail through the deer and judging by the internal damage, are clearly expanding and shedding the nose/HP. There is no returning from a 45 or 50 cal hole in the chest.

You could try posting a wanted advert on the cast boolit web site. There are plenty of members and you might find someone prepared to make a batch for you. Then have them loaded to your specs.

if you can get the 135 gn speer gold dot for 38 or 200 grain gold dot for 44 you can go as low as 875 and 800fps respectively with low noise and expansion too. The lowest velocity expanding JHP 357 bullets are in this order
Rem 125grain golden sabre BJHP which expands down to mid 850's, though its now discontinued
The 135 speer mentioned above, expands around 875
Rem 125gn Semi jacketed hollowpoint, low 900's
Barnes XPB around 1000fps.

44 I listed above already.

Cant argue with benefits of casting, though I never got much into it