Heavy bullet question .....

[J Miller]

I know that Elmer Keith started experimenting with heavier .45 Cal bullets way back in the 1930s. He use sized down 300gr 45-90 bullets if I remember right. So I guess we can attribute some of this heavy bullet craze to him. But even Elmer dropped back to 250gr 44s and 260gr 45s with his pet 2400 loads.

What I'm trying to understand is why the recent ( last 15- 20 years ) emphasis on much heavier than standard bullets in handgun calibers.

For instance in the .45 Colt I see people regularly talking about 325 to 350 and even heavier bullets at 1200 + FPS out of their revolvers. I cannot see the purpose or need for this, I guess I'm dense. I've tried, I've read lots of articles, test results and seen lots of pictures, but I just can't see it.

I've read many of the articles about killing bears, elephants, buffaloes and other big animals with these loads, but really are these loads needed?

I don't think so. Personally I believe that 250 to 260 gr bullets as chosen by Elmer Keith at a reasonable velocity 1100 to 1200 is enough. I've never shot heavier than a 300gr bullet from my 45s and have no desire to do so.

Now, can somebody here explain to me why I have to use a 350gr + LBTFNFNWGCBSledgehammer bullet at 1700FPS out of my 4 5/8" Ruger BH just to kill something?

Please?

Joe

[Don McDowell]

Joe, near as I can tell its mostly just a lack of practical experience.
Not a whole lot of folks have probably ever seen how well a 250-255 bullet from a 45 colt at a nominal 1000fps or less actually works on anything of flesh and blood. Much the same thing can be said for the 45-70, you can't keep a 500 gr lead bullet at classic bp velocity,in a buffalo shot broadside at 100 yds or so, but to believe most of the printed stuff, you got to shoot a 450 gr gc dropemwrapem bullet cast from A6 hard steel and water quenched, launched at 27300 fps for the old cartridge to be effective
Paper targets don't tell the complete story.

[J Miller]

Don,

I can't remember where I read this, but the author stated that after a certain velocity there was no more to gain by additional velocity. At that point the only benefit was a flatter trajectory.

This I can see, but how much flatter will a 300+ grain bullet shoot at 1200+ fps than say a 268 gr at 1100 fps? I'd bet not much.

I figure if they'd let me I'd take a shot at a buffalo with my .45 Colt and Elmers loads. And with my knees I'd best do it right, cos I sure can't run away if I p.o. the buffalo.

Joe

[Grizz]

Joe,

Did you skip my post on the field tests? Look over the data for my .44 handgun load. That bullet penetrated 13.5" of douglas fir at the lower velocity. I upped the velocity to make it perform that way at 50 yards.

It is not a high pressure, high velocity load. It is a low pressure, low velocity, low recoil load that hits like a freight train.

I carry that gun when I'm fishing creeks with salmon and huge brown bears. But I don't think it would be any less effective in thin skinned game, like say mountain lions, or deer, elk, hogs, moose, etc.

Easy shooting low recoil, vs the lighter bullet loaded up to wrist-snapping levels that still won't out-penetrate that 405 grainer. What's not to like about that? Everyone who shoots it just has a big smile and comments how low the recoil is. It's much lower than my old standby 325 grain bullet at 1100 fps.

I'm just saying

[Bluehawk]

I have to say im some where in between on this one . I have a nice Ruger BIsley 5.5 in that shoots the 300 grainers very well and is in the 1200FPS range I have tried the 325s but coud not get the same accuracy out of that gun with any loads of the 325 grain bullets ( several tried). I shoot the RCBS 270SAA bullet cast by me in both my Bisley and my USFA Rodeo that casts for me at 285 grains with my alloy and its shoots marvelously out of both guns . This is with Unique pushing it to around 900 Fps . The more I shoot it the more it is becomming my all around load for everything and i'll be scrapping the 300 grainers soon .
Its heavier than the 250/260 bullets lighter than the 300/325s but seems to be as good as any of those and is nice to handle in either gun
Also used that load in my OM vaquero prior to selling it , and tried it in a friends Blackhawk convertible and it shot quite well in that gun too .
It will probably do anything I ever need to do with ah heavy handgun and wih much less fuss than over heavy bullets.

[Griff]

Joe, near as I can tell its mostly just a lack of practical experience.
Not a whole lot of folks have probably ever seen how well a 250-255 bullet from a 45 colt at a nominal 1000fps or less actually works on anything of flesh and blood. Much the same thing can be said for the 45-70, you can't keep a 500 gr lead bullet at classic bp velocity,in a buffalo shot broadside at 100 yds or so, but to believe most of the printed stuff, you got to shoot a 450 gr gc dropemwrapem bullet cast from A6 hard steel and water quenched, launched at 27300 fps for the old cartridge to be effective
Paper targets don't tell the complete story.

Love this answer. Don, you have a way with words, unlike Matthew:

[Grizz]

Bluehawk,

Not disputing your loads. I was trying to answer Joe's question by 'splaining what I see in the heavies. If we could shoot together you would see the difference.


Not to say that your loads aren't good ones, just saying if brer bear is sitting on me, I'd prefer mine.

Grizz

PS: here's a link to some pictures showing the heavy penetration I'm getting from the heavy bullets. Since penetration is my goal with this load, more is better.

http://levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?p=55839#55839

[Bluehawk]

Grizz I was not really addressing your post but trying to answer Js
I UNSDERSTAND perfectly yours and AGREE with you IN YOUR SITUTAION I doubt wether I'll ever get the chance to fish for salmon on waters where big browns or grizzlies my wander by .IF SO I would much prefer my 300 grain loads, in my 45 colt to the ones I mentioned.
I was not writing as one opposed to the heavy bullets FOR SINGULAR PURPOSES but for all around use deer, black bear , even elk the loads I use will do it for the most part .
The back stop to my range is fallen trees for the most part . I can easily find and dig out all of hte 250, 255, 260 grain bullets I have shot over the last few years with my 45 colt . The 285s I have to dig for and find them at about the same depth as I find the 300s. I DO NOT measure when I do this, but find the penetration in hard wood ( oak ) to be about the same . I have never realy run any actual penetration tests or tests in wound media to look at wound channels . I hav no doubt that the heavier bullets will out penetrate the lighter ones IF the velocity stays equal or evena little less. for me , any way , and for my purposes it seems I have setteld on the in between weight .

[Bluehawk]

Grizz
Funny I had not looked at the link you provided on the last post about your penetration and now that I see that its into logs its just funny that we were judging on the same medium I had not known it when I posted .
My best penetration was with the speer 300 grain SP with 21 Grains of H110 . I,d be carrying that in BIG bear country .

[Grizz]

That's the smart way to do it. Find out what the gun likes, Find out how they perform. Just going out and seeing what happens, like with the oak trees in your case, is a great learning experience. And truth is, there probably aren't any skulls that are harder than that oak, so you probably have a good chance at a cns shot if you need it, plus a great deer/hog load too. There are plenty of bears, cats, wolves, etc all over the place that a stopping shot could be needed for any time. I like that you've dug your bullets out and know what they do.

I just added that link so you could see what I'm referring to....

Grizz

[J Miller]

Grizz,

I didn't "skip" your thread, more like I missed it. Some times this forum moves so fast I miss things.
If you'll link me to it I'll read it right quick.

Joe

[Grizz]

Grizz,

I didn't "skip" your thread, more like I missed it. Some times this forum moves so fast I miss things.
If you'll link me to it I'll read it right quick.

Joe

Here ya go Joe:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7983

that .44 data builds on this earlier test:


http://levergunlovers.com/viewtopic.php?p=55839#55839

and the movie in the first link compares 2 420g bullets with a 525g bullet

Regards,

Grizz

[Don McDowell]

Griff it seems to me there's two main classes of 45 colt shooters, those that think 700 fps is to fast for Cas, and those that think it needs to be a 45-70 lite. Don't seem to me that either bunch ever stopped to wonder why the old cartridge hung around for so many years.
Having seen what it'll do loaded to the original 900 ish level, I've long said if a 45 colt loaded with a 250 ish gr bullet to 950 or so won't take care of the problem , a rifle would of been a much better choice to begin with.
When that ol bull decided he was gonna take me out once and for all , and he dropped his head to come blastin on in, that colt slug caught him right between the eyes. He stopped, got the dangest "that's cheatin" look on his face and fell over. Dead. The range was about 20 yds, they got that slug out of his neck about 18 inches past where it left the brain pan. And his days of mayhem was done, and all I needed to do was get the horse and dogs healed up.
No I don't have much patience for some of the stuff I read about what it takes for a "stopper",put forth by folks that have had to stop a challenge by several ticked off Hoppes targets, and raging milk jugs.

[J Miller]

Grizz,

Read your threads. Almost too much info for my brain to digest. But I did find it interesting. Couldn't watch the video as my dial up takes forever to download them.


Joe

[Tycer]

Joe, near as I can tell its mostly just a lack of practical experience.

That'd be me.

But now I got a 45/70 that'll stop a raging locomotive. Now I just have to develop a load for the Gould mold I got for hunting, seeing as the train load is a little stiff for deer and NC bear.

[Andrew]

Joe, I saw one of those loads on one of the powder sites under the "Ruger/Contender/FA only" section. Something like 325gr at about 12-1300fps and as little experienced as I am, even I just shook my head and thought "Why??". That, and "Not in my gun.".

[Idiot]

You can drive a super heavy bullet at moderate velocity and get a particular amount of penetration OR you can drive a lighter bullet at a higher velocity and get the same penetration. The choice is yours.

Out of a 45/70 I've tried Grizz' loads and would go with his heavy (not super heavy) simply because it feds so well and still packs more punch than any hard to kill rock could ever withstand.

That being said, Joe I don't think you get a whole lot more killing performance out of 45 Colt verse a deer or elk using a 325 grain bullet instead of one in the upper 200 grain weights. Nor do I think you get any more killing power out of heavy 45 Colt than you get out of a heavy 44 Magnum. I'm using a 270 grain bullet out of a 45 Colt and a 250 grain bullet out of a 44 Magnum. They both exit the barrel around 1100 fps and I don't think there's a dimes worth of practical difference between the two. However, I don't hunt coastal grizzlies with them and would carry a rifle if I knew I couldn't get within 100 yards of what lurks in my neck of the woods (and my woods don't have any grizzlies).

I think the "ultra heavy bullet syndrome" is about up and was a fad that has long overstayed its hype. I think we all owe a debt of gratitude to the S&W 500 Magnum for exemplifying exaggeration run amok and reeling some of us back to reality.

Now, I think Grizz makes a good point and it shouldn't be missed. He prefers the super heavy bullet as a more comfortable and comforting way to achieve a means that could arguably be achieved with less comfort and perhaps in a less comforting (reliable) way. That's his choice - a choice that makes perfect sense to me. I do the same thing with the 44 Magnum. I'd much rather shoot a 250 grain bullet at a lazy soft-recoiling 1100 fps than a 210 grain bullet at a muzzle-blasting flame-throwing sharp-recoiling 1400 fps. They may both get to the same destination and accomplish the same thing, but the trip won't be as much fun with the later.

[Hobie]

Joe,

I think people periodically reinvent the wheel, sometimes with improvements, sometimes not. I tried the .44 Mag. I can handle it. I've gone "back" to 240-270 gr. at about 900 fps for my .44 and .45 cal pistols and am happy with 230 gr. at 800 fps in the .45 ACP or AR. Hotrodding has lost its luster for me.

[Grizz]

I grant you can work the problem backwards. Some years ago a woodsman in Alaska was in the woods. Maybe making the trek to the outhouse. He disappeared.

Some number of years later a large menacing bear was killed and investigated to see what it's life story was. In the lower jaw and parts of the bears head were a number of .38 cal lead bullets in healed up wounds.

The woodsman had a .38 when he left for the crapper and became dinner.

There should be some point where most folks could agree that too little isn't too much. A little investigation into the process if becoming dindin for a bear should convince more people that more is more better. But of course not everyone agrees, and recently another expert and his girlfriend discovered that their cameras couldn't stop brer bear from dining on them.

It's different than steers. Steers eat grass. Bears eat whatever tickles their fancy...
Anyone who thinks their whatever is more than adequate for whatever, more power to 'em; or, er, less power to 'em?

Grizz

[Don McDowell]

It's different than steers. Steers eat grass. Bears eat whatever tickles their fancy...
Anyone who thinks their whatever is more than adequate for whatever, more power to 'em; or, er, less power to 'em?

Grizz

Sort of true, but the one thing that kills and injures more folks in Yellowstone is the bison. Bears get one once in awhile, but not near as many.
When a 2000lb bovine has decided humans are evil and need to be erraditcated, they're every bit as deadly as a bear.

But still the closest a good many folks ever have to any of em, is sittin on their butt typin on the computer from the comfort of their homes.

[Don McDowell]

Joe, near as I can tell its mostly just a lack of practical experience.

That'd be me.

But now I got a 45/70 that'll stop a raging locomotive. Now I just have to develop a load for the Gould mold I got for hunting, seeing as the train load is a little stiff for deer and NC bear.

Tycer if your talking about the 330 hp Gould, that thing was around well over a hundred years ago ,and made its reputation,when 1500 fps was redhot screamin velocity.
That should be easy enough to do.

[Tycer]

Joe, near as I can tell its mostly just a lack of practical experience.

That'd be me.

But now I got a 45/70 that'll stop a raging locomotive. Now I just have to develop a load for the Gould mold I got for hunting, seeing as the train load is a little stiff for deer and NC bear.

Tycer if your talking about the 330 hp Gould, that thing was around well over a hundred years ago ,and made its reputation,when 1500 fps was redhot screamin velocity.
That should be easy enough to do.

Yep, I'm thinkin' a redhot trapdoor load will keel a deer over just fine.

[Grizz]

Sort of true, but the one thing that kills and injures more folks in Yellowstone is the bison. Bears get one once in awhile, but not near as many.
When a 2000lb bovine has decided humans are evil and need to be erraditcated, they're every bit as deadly as a bear.

Too true Don. A friend tells me that smart people don't get too close to Bison, and I believe it. But they are beautiful to look at. Periodically in Alaska the news has graphic footage of a ticked off moose stomping the life out of some hapless passerby. They just get a mad on and take it out on the nearest annoyance.

If I ever have the privilege of harvesting Bison I'll whack it in the head with a heavy bullet to see what happens, after it quits breathing.....

Grizz

[Don McDowell]

Tycer you bring to mind a double standard that always tickles the snot out of me.
If a 300 gr bullet from 454 casull trundlin along at 1500ish is good for anything from mice to mastedons, then hows come a near identical bullet gimping along from a 45-70 at the same speed isn't worth a hoot, and way under powered for all but the smallest of game?

Good luck with the load developement on that bullet, looking forwards to seeing the pictures of dead critters and that rifle.

[AJMD429]

Grizz,
I didn't "skip" your thread, more like I missed it. Some times this forum moves so fast I miss things.
If you'll link me to it I'll read it right quick.
Joe

Joe - you've obviously NOT been reading the recent posts. If you had been, you'd KNOW that there AREN'T any "gun" posts on here anymore, they're all "OT - political."

[shawn45]

I have an example of to light a 45 260 gr bullet at to fast a velocity.Last year hunting with ScottT I shot a 10 point and my bullet was traveling at 1250fps, It shot all the way through the deer and hung up on the hide on the far side. it was a high shoulder shot and I plucked the bullet out of the hide with my fingers. I have done a lot of wet paper testing with that and other bullets and I can get more penetration with less velocity more often than not. When the lighter bullet expands it penetrates less than the slower bullet that doesn't expand as much. Same with the 335 Keith 45, it penetrated more at 800 fps than at 1150. Which is better , depends what you are shooting but I think I'll find out what the 335 does to a buffalo this fall with my FA at 1050.

[Bluehawk]

Hmm one comment the one post above mentions that you can send the heavy bullet at moderate velocity and the lighter bullet at higher velocity to get the same penetration NOT SO the lighter bullet will shed momentum faster every time and the heavier bullet at moderate velocity will penetrate deeper every time . I have seen it in every test medium I have ever used with every cartridge I have ever tried .
I ran a lot of penetration tests for My police dept in the early 80s when we were fixin to go to autos over the revolvers we wer carrying penetration was an issue . I was amazed at how the plain old 45 ACp and very modest velocities ( BOTH HOLLOW POINTS AND HARD BALL ) out penetrated almost anything agains it . Heaviest penetration we got was original Norma factory 200 TC hard ball 10 MM ammo . nest to that was the 357 180 silhouette loads . then came 45 acp hard ball and then the 230 hp 45 auto . The lighter bullets ant higher velocities NEVER penetrated to any near level as the heavy bullets in the moderate velocity level
the 10mm 165 grain loads were pittiful compared to the 180 and 200 grain loads and they were much higher velocity . IN THE PENETRATION AREA . Does not mean they are not good loads for self defense against humans in certain situations but the topic is penetration to vitals and through skulls and heavy bones Ill take the heavy bullet at moderate velocities any time .

[popeye44]

Have survived 3 wars with guns. Shot a few head of game. Elk size down. Jillions o varmints. Hardest thing ever
hit the ground was a 700lb steer shot tween the eyes with my 10/22.

[Idiot]

Hmm one comment the one post above mentions that you can send the heavy bullet at moderate velocity and the lighter bullet at higher velocity to get the same penetration NOT SO the lighter bullet will shed momentum faster every time and the heavier bullet at moderate velocity will penetrate deeper every time .

You mean to tell me you think a hard cast 350 grain 45 caliber bullet at 800 fps will penetrate deeper than a hard cast 300 grain 45 caliber bullet going 1200 fps? I don't think it will.

[Bluehawk]

In this specific instance it would probably be almost equal . There is not that much difference in the parameters with bullets of that close of a weight spectrum , in the same calibre. YOu had not specified that your wieght differences were small .
If you take a 44 mag with 180 grain bullets and shoot them at 1500fps and take a 44 mag with 250 grain bullets at 900 fps the 250 will penetrate deeper. At least everytime I have shot them into several different mediums they have . Also I guess I have to state that this is also,only in the same calibre. If you shoot a 180 grain 357 mag bullet into the same medium as shooitng a 180 grain 45 acp bullet in the same medium at the same velocity the 357 will penetrate more too, so the weight is specific to comparison with in the same calibre not others .
I remember mentioning in the above post that I can still remember testing the 10 mm . The 165s penetrated less than the 180s, the 180s penterated less than the 200s. the 165s were travellng faster than the 180s and the 180s were travelling faster than the 200s.
Oh I may mention that in my initial tests years ago I realized that the 200s I was using were TC FMJ as opposed to the HPs of the lighter bullets, which would have given the edge to the 200s . SOOOOO I went back and tested again with 10mm ( this was AFTER my dept. adopted the 10mm as the round of choice so I needed to re test any way ) I used this time 155 grainers , 180 grainers and 200 JHP grainers also SAME RESULTS . AND the 155s we were using,were even faster than the 165s and they DID NOT penetrate more due to velocity .

[popeye44]

Remember the old tests I believe Hatcher did with a bow and arrow and a 30'06. If memory serves correctly
the arrow always penetrated MORE.. Read a while back about bombs being able to penetrate more than 50'
of solid rock before detonating. They were supposed to be made from old naval gun barrels. Bullet penetration
is all about BULLET CONSTRUCTION FITST. Then penetration.
Larry Kelly went to Africa about 20 years ago and killed the 'big seven' with his magnaported SBH. The velocity
was about 1100fps. The bullets were bronze with a tungsten core . Nothing new. The Germans used them in
their 8mm bullets inWWI&WWII

[popeye44]

Remember the old tests I believe Hatcher did with a bow and arrow and a 30'06. If memory serves correctly
the arrow always penetrated MORE.. Read a while back about bombs being able to penetrate more than 50'
of solid rock before detonating. They were supposed to be made from old naval gun barrels. Bullet penetration
is all about BULLET CONSTRUCTION FITST. Then penetration.
Larry Kelly went to Africa about 20 years ago and killed the 'big seven' with his magnaported SBH. The velocity
was about 1100fps. The bullets were bronze with a tungsten core . Nothing new. The Germans used them in
their 8mm bullets inWWI&WWII

[Grizz]

popeye

That's a very good point. It demonstrates why I quit carrying a .338 around the man-eaters and started using hard lead bullets. My testing shows that the lead bullets won't self destruct at point blank impact velocities, but the .338 bullets I was using will. They're moving much to fast at the muzzle to be reliable.

Grizz

[Idiot]

Popeye, you and Grizz got it right. Bullet construction has as much, if not more, to do with penetration than either weight or velocity.

Blackhawk, I should have been more specific. I assumed the topics initial post kind of outlined bullet weight parameters and I went with that. Assumptions are dangerous.

[Bluehawk]

YOu are right sir bullet construction has a lot to do with it . An AWFUL LOT . I touched on that on the one post when i mentioned the difference on the hollow points and the FMJs. bullet construction my be one of the more limiting factors in penetration . More than the velocity or mass .

[bj94]

Consider the properties of a hunting bullet- velocity, weight, shape, diameter, expansion, penetration. The absolutely most important property is penetration. It must penetrate the target. Once you have sufficient penetration then you can consider the other parameters.

Why do we use 300+ grain bullets now vs. 250's from the past? Maybe we know more about penetration now. Maybe we routinely shoot at bigger animals now with handguns than we used to. Maybe we want a higher probability of success. I've witnessed the penetration tests that John Linebaugh does, and in those tests he puts cow bones into wet newspaper and tests different loads for penetration. I've seen hardcast 300 grain .44mag bullets stopped by the cowbones, so a 250 grain .45 bullet would surely be stopped also. But maybe a 350 grain .45 bullet would have better success.

[shawn45]

response to idiot
with water dropped 335 gr Keith bullets at 800fps and 1150fps at the 2005 Linebaugh shoot in Cody Wyoming the 800 fps bullet penetrated more in both one gallon water jugs lined up on a special stand than the 1150 load. The 800 fps load also penetrated further in wet newspaper than the 1150fps load. The slower loads didn't expand and "lose" their momentum as fast. I would have bet money the faster load would have penetrated faster, but we ran the test making all things as consistent as possible and thats what happened. I am pretty sure I have the bullets around somewhere and I could photo them and email it to you.