Church Shootings

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:46 am

I just saw a blurb on the morning news about shootings in what Denver? The thing that just got brushed over was the fact that the gunman was killed by a church member with a gun. The pastor was speaking and it seems that the church members has put in place a security detail of sorts to deal with just such a situation.
In light of what happened at the mall earlier in the week it would sure be nice if this success story could be brought out.

Rusty <><

Coldfingers · Post by **Coldfingers** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:35 am

Thank God for the sheepdog!

Glad to hear that there is some common sense amongst the flock.

God's Grace to the congregation as they struggle through this time.

Scotty

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:37 am

You hate to hear about any shootings, but if this is an example on what can happen when armed citizens are around, maybe our thick-headed press will get the message.

I doubt it!

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:01 am

At least FNC has given voice to a couple of folks who pointed out that the shooter at the church was shut down by armed defense BEFORE he killed anyone.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:02 am

Ysabel Kid wrote: maybe our thick-headed press will get the message.

HaaaaaHaaaaa!!!! Good one Kid!

No really, if it was indeed a member of the congregation packing his CCW that stopped the madman, we will never hear that story. NBC is reporting the killer was stopped by a security guard.

Vic303 · Post by **Vic303** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:53 am

Yep, armed security guard at the megachurch site. AT least he did the job well, considering he was confronted by a rifle-wielding shooter!

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:09 am

Vic303 wrote:Yep, armed security guard at the megachurch site. AT least he did the job well, considering he was confronted by a rifle-wielding shooter!

I heard this morning it was a FEMALE that shot the nut...

20cows · Post by **20cows** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 9:15 am

The thing that just got brushed over was the fact that the gunman was killed by a church member with a gun

I didn't catch that part at all. He did, apperently kill two before they stopped him.

There is a possibility he was the same shooter responsible for another shooting earlier, 70 miles away at another worship service.

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:06 am

I am not surprised at the "Mega Church" having armed guards. Although I do feel terrible about the situation, let me spread some light on that place. I am not surprised it happended there. I used to live down the road from that place less than 6 months ago. It is more of a Cult than it is a church. Their last leader was the biggest hypocrit that ever lived. He founded New Life church in his basement.

Funny thing is, he was caught last year with a gay prostitute from Denver with a bag of Meth in his hand. At first, Focus on the Family (another cult) said they were going to stand by him and give him counseling. They ended up a week later dropping him like a bad habit. He lied his tail off until they proved it on TV. Ted Haggard was his name. He also tore apart more familys in the name of god,(more like himself) than anyone alive

Focus on the family's leader was largly anti-CCW and gun. When Colorado was trying to pass their CCW's, he was an against it. But the funny thing is, someone tried to kill him and he was the first one applying for a CCW. He also has armed guards in his building.

Just wanted to shed some light on that place. This info is on the net if you want to look.. I stepped into that place one time, and turned around right in the middle of their service. Never again. Sorry if I stepped on any toes, but there is probably a reason why it happened there. I have never seen armed guards in a church until I stepped into that place. Trust me, there is a reason

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 10:20 am

I guess "cult is in the eye of the beholder. I've always thought the Focus on the Family pretty much represented what is considered by many to be mainstream Christianity today. I didn't realize they were anti gun. I'll have to write them about that to get an official position.
I know several years ago my wife went to Texas to attend a week long work shop for her RN requirements. her sister wanted to go as well. While they were there the sister wanted to go to the Wed. night services of the church that Joel Olstien ( I think that's his name) pastors. My wife didn't go into the services because she needed to study the day's material so she sat on a bench in the main hallway during the services. All went well until it was time to take up the offering. An off duty city cop in uniform told me wife that when they brought the offering out of the church and took it through the hall, she would have to move into a nearby classroom. That church has been known to take up a $15K offering on one night for a church member who's house burned down.
I've never been to a megachurch so I can't say. It's just not my cup of tea.
Has anyone heard about the identity of the BG? Wondering if he was Muslim?
Rusty <><

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:33 am

I don't know what kind of church it was, but even if it was a Moslem mosque I am opposed to shooters going in and killing people. A shooter of innocent people is a shooter of innocent people, and such person needs to be stopped immediately and usually the only way to do it is with a firearm. I know that the local police here do not even consider anything but returning immediate fire against a shooter.

Regarding Focus on the Family, I would check directly with them before asserting what their current position is on firearms. My wife and I have supported them for years and never heard anything from them that was anti-2nd. I could be wrong, but I'd check with them first. They stand for traditional family values. I realize that not everyone here would go for that, and everyone is free to hold whatever views they may. Don't want to start a heated discussion. All I ask is that a person go straight to the source and read what they have to say as opposed to what the gays, lesbians, ACLU, and various atheist organizations have to say about them.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:36 am

Rusty wrote:I just saw a blurb on the morning news about shootings in what Denver? The thing that just got brushed over was the fact that the gunman was killed by a church member with a gun. ...

Chicago Tribune:

...The gunman was killed by a member of the church's armed security staff before police arrived, Myers said. The gunman's name was not released. Officers found several smoke-generating devices on the church campus; their intended purpose wasn't clear...

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:06 pm

New Life is hardly a cult.

Of course there are those who think that everyone who ain't in their group is a cult.

Pointing out the previous leader's immoralitility does not mean that the group is wrong. Every religious sect in America has had its share of those whose sins were made public.

Let him who is without sin cast the first stone. I won't.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:20 pm

I called Focus on the Family and asked what their policy is on firearms and the Second Amendment.

Their reply was that, as a ministry, they have taken no official position on that issue as they felt it was not a "moral issue", which is what they focus on.

I was told by the lady I spoke with that they understand that an unarmed society is a vulnerable society. They also understand the need for self-defense.

But because so many people are so divided on the subject, they have chose not to take an official stance.

They were very polite and listened while I suggested they read SHOOTING BACK by Charl van Wyk and that they watch the video. I told them I believed it made the case for firearms as a moral issue.

I was assured that they would check into the book.

I sincerely hope they do.

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:41 pm

I do agree with both of you. I would never want to turn my favorite forum into something political and I won't for respect of myself and others. I do favor most views of Focus on the Family, but I do not support hypocrits. They are well assosiated with New Life church and have been in bed with them for years. Their armed guards are not for the collection plate.

They lost the respect of most citizens in Colorado Springs over the years. Without going into detail, I have first hand knowledge of what goes on their. Ted Haggard founded that church in his basement. That should be one's first red flag. They are about politcal power and money. Period. And its not just with the founder. Just look into his "Cash for Heaven" program. Every religon has its extreemist and I suppose they are one of them. Jim Jones would be proud

I would never wish this shooting on anyone and that kid got what he deserved. All I am saying is I am not surprised that it happened there. I'll end here

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:17 pm

I've been to see Mr. Osteen preach at Lakewood Church. That they would take in $15K a service is very believable as they had about 10K people at the service on a Saturday night! BIG church. Wide range of folks. No security, well, not in your face security. Wonderful, professional people as ushers, etc. Seen him in Greenville as well. The wife thinks highly of him. However, when I shook his hand I looked him directly in the eye and he seemed a bit, well, put off. Could just be me, what do you think Sean and Griff?

I just want to say that I've been to big churches and little churches and churches of all denominations and I never felt more welcome than at Lakewood.

That said, money IS a powerful drug for some that would take it. Ill people take offense at the oddest things and that may have no basis in reality (as I learned again this week) and I don't think there is a thing wrong or incriminating about security at a church, synagogue or mosque.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:29 pm

The lady security who took the bad guy down was trained by a friend of mine. She is a former Law Enforcement Officer and a great woman. I call her a Hero. She hit him all 10 times. Going up against a rifle with a handgun is putting it on the line!

As to the beginnings and staff of New Life ... you may be correct. But so what? You can say the same things about every single denomination in the country. Politics and Power. It does not mean they are a cult nor does it mean the people are wrong.

There are good folks everywheres ... even in the Democratic Party!

(oh stuff .. now I'm gonna catch it ...

)

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:47 pm

Totally off topic, TheoPolitical and generally curmudgeonly comment coming...

I wholy admire the Gentlemen Preachers on this Forum for Preaching their Faith.

That's a Good Thing.

OTOH, I have great fear and distrust of "Mega" anything. At every MegaChurch I've attended, it seems that the most important thing is the Plate and the Preacher/Personality.

Take away the Personality and the "church" folds.

That's not a good thing, and it's largely why the Fed is looking into the Lavish Expendatures generated by certain "megas".

While they can be occasionally uplifting & motivating, I don't see how one can have Communion with God at a Rock Concert week in and week out.

Give me a small "Country Church" - almost without regard to Denomination - with a couple dozen Farmers and their Kids any day.

Just my 2p.

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:56 pm

I sorta agree with Old Ironsights ... not totally ... but sorta.

I do agree with the author that wrote .. some are preaching about Jesus in hopes of causing more trouble and some preach from true motives .. but no matter what, I'm happy that Jesus is being talked about ...

or words to that effect ...

just the viewpoint from a small country church with farmers and their kids and old folks and those of us who love rock and roll church sometimes too ...

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:19 pm

Good comments fellas, all around.

johnly · Post by **johnly** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 4:32 pm

10 for 10! You go girl!!

It goes to show that good training and skill can overcome superior firepower.

The qustion raging today seems to be if she was an official security guard, or a member of the church that was permitted to come to services with a concealed weapon as an ad hoc security measure.

John

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:25 pm

johnly wrote: The qustion raging today seems to be if she was an official security guard, or a member of the church that was permitted to come to services with a concealed weapon as an ad hoc security measure.

John

The church has security measures in place including people who are armed as part of the overall plan. The lady in question was one of them. By "official" do you mean "in uniform"? I don't believe their armed security wear a uniform. I could be wrong on that, but most churches that I am aware of who have armed security in the meetings have them in "plain clothes."

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:28 pm

Now he important question is...

Did he die of his wounds, or Lead Poisoning?

Girl should be ashamed of herself using Lead like that...

johnly · Post by **johnly** » Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:06 pm

I guess by offical, was the person was part of a defined team that had scheduled duty and trained as a group. As compared to a person that obtained "permission" to carry during services, just in case.

This has nothing to do with her bravery. Quite the contray, she's a hero in every sense of the word. The anti-CCW crowd is performing damage control, by making it seem that she was performing an offical duty. Lord knows, that having a "regular" person having a CW permit, and twarting a crime would be detrimental to their cause.

John

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