Survivalism and Leverguns

[505stevec]

I have been looking in on a Forum called FAL Files. One of the topics there is called Survival and Preparedness. While many of the Survivalist types advocate Assault Type Weapons. Many others talk of leverguns as their "go to gun". What is your status in a bad times scenario. I know most of what we talk here is hunting or just plain "shooting fun" with leverguns but how many are prepared in their local for this type of scenario? Does anyone here think about this especially with the political realm doing what it is. Personally I am not prepared except for having pletny of guns and ammo. Although a part of me feels that we take for granted all the ammenities of civilization and should be prepared. Another part of me thinks that, canning food, raising chickens, storing gas and medical supplies would be a waist of time. What do you all think?

[Old Ironsights]

IMO .38/.357 in stainless is about the perfect bad times gun.

No, it is not a "firefight" or "sniper" gun, but it has lots of readily available, easily reloadable ammunition, is accurate, heavy enough out to 150yds for 2-leg goblins and decreases supply chain problems of multiple calibers in your BoB.

If you need somthing "better" the .357 will get it for you.

[Lefty Dude]

My Emergency FA if you will, is a H&R Handi-Rifle in 308 & 12 ga. The .308 has iron sights only. The 12 ga. barrel is a turkey barrel W/ 3 1/2" chambers. I call it my throw-away gun. It came with a 44 mag barrel and I set it back to H&R and thru the barrel accessory program had the other two fitted for the action. With the three barrels I can get ammo any where in the country. I also have a ammo box set aside with some ammo for all three calibers. also in the box is a Lee hand loader, 200 Nosler 165 gr BTS bullets, 1000 CCI LRP, one pound of Varget powder.
Lots of fire power in a Handi-Rifle multi barrel set-up.

I would also take my 92 Rossi 44 Mag. and my Ruger Single/six and the Ruger 3-S .357.

[sore shoulder]

I guess it depends on what you're trying to survive and where. In a lot of you folks cases I would bet you would need to survive an urban society gone feral due to some sort of collapse before you ever get anywhere near wildeness, and you are going to need an appropriate weapon. By appropriate I do not mean the "best" for any one give scenario. You need a weapon that is in common use with resupply available for parts and ammo. There is nothing that fits the bill better than the AR15/M16/M4 in a carbine version. Remember, I am not talking about the best weapon or caliber for all things, as that is only part of the equation, and a small part at that. If you think you will get somewhere with big critters etc, then get a 44mag for sidearm, it is by far the most prevalant big bore ammo available, and will kill anything that walks. If you think hunting will be an option, most medium and some large game can be killed with a good soft point or Barnes .223 bullet that is well placed just as good as a 30-30 etc. Think about it. If you're in a survival situation, so are a lot of other folks, and judgeing by todays society most of them are unscrupulous. They are going to band together and try to take whatever you have. They will be looking for folks like you that they know are "prepared", so you need to be prepared not just to survive in a primitive type setting, but also you will need to be prepared to keep whatever you have. I have no plans to escape to the wilderness, I already live in it basically, and a long way from any big cities when it's reduced to foot travel. My wife has a lot of family in Denver, some of them have property near us, but never use it or even visit. I have already told her that if I see anyone approaching that is not immediate family they will be given instructions once to unass the AO. Non-compliance will have bad consequences.

You guys with game carts may want to consider them as primary load bearing equipment which will allow you to carry more with less effort, and a backpack as secondary. Of course if you have advance notice or think you can travel any distance in a vehicle use that first.

And finally, if you really think things are going to get bad, move. Move someplace remote. Commute an hour or more to work frrom outside town, instead of commuting an hour across it. If you're retired then what the hell are you still doing in town? Get out. If you live in CA, leave, move, change jobs, but for Gods sake get out now while you can.

[O.S.O.K.]

I am mostly prepared for Merde hitting the Leveur (MHTL) in that I've got plenty of firearms options and more than enough ammo. We are scouters and have all kinds of camping and backpacking equipment as well. Our vehicle inventory includes two very capable 4x4 Jeeps and a 16' trailer.

We would have to immediately get stocked up on medical and staple items - though we do have a pretty good stock of foodstuffs at all times.

I personally would grab my AK type rifles - I'v got them in various calibers - they are the premier MHTL rifle IMHO. I'd go to my AR's after the AK's and then to my SKS's, FAL, and then to my Brit SMLE's and finally to my leverguns. In that order. The Enfields beat out the levers due to their rapid charge capabilities and 10 round mags.

Nothing wrong with a good lever in 30-30 or pistol caliber if you've got the ammo to go with. A far cry better than just a pistol or nothing at all. I am very handy with a lever after many years shooting cas. The only down side is the slow-to-load aspect of them.

Rapid fire/high capacity capability is not a requirement or asset for day to day life. However, in a real MHTL situation, it becomes a real advantage.


Saiga conversion in 308 with 20 round mags


Here's another great option that takes 33 round Glock Mags - Kel tec Sub2000 9mm



MHTL transportation


One of our survival team members with some supper

[Lefty Dude]

This could all get started this Summer in Denver with the DNC convention. The Re-create 68 crowd is rearing it ugly head. They are saber-rattling now, not much Media attention on this subject but the People of Colorado are very concerned.

[sore shoulder]

This could all get started this Summer in Denver with the DNC convention. The Re-create 68 crowd is rearing it ugly head. They are saber-rattling now, not much Media attention on this subject but the People of Colorado are very concerned.

Oh please, a bunch of stoned out hippies and 60's has beens are not going to bring about TEOTWAWKI. Trust me, if they get out of hand, they will not like what the results will be. Remember, the governor of a state has certain assets at his disposal. And they are indeed being used. Not to mention all the federal assets that will be involved.

[pharmseller]

IMO .38/.357 in stainless is about the perfect bad times gun.

No, it is not a "firefight" or "sniper" gun, but it has lots of readily available, easily reloadable ammunition, is accurate, heavy enough out to 150yds for 2-leg goblins and decreases supply chain problems of multiple calibers in your BoB.

If you need somthing "better" the .357 will get it for you.

What's a "BoB"?

Quinn

[Haycock]

My $.02... being prepared is no joke (old scout here). Here is the list I am using to drive actual prep-steps I am actively taking as time & money permit (i.e. a bunch of this is already accomplished).

I will leave out the guns, since that topic is done to death pretty often (TEOTWAWKI comes... pick your guns... we've all played it), but I will say that having a battery which includes enough firearms and ammo for multiple family members across diverse calibers/types (CF rifles/handguns, RF rifles/handguns, shotguns, etc.) and at least one good hunting bow is my general approach. Also, to keep this on topic, I will say that of the guns I have in-scope for this plan four are levers!

Okay, so...

30-Day Prep List
- 30-Days/90-Meals dried-food reserve (Mountain House, Alpen Aire, Rainy Day Foods), #10 Cans, Mylar pouches, Canned Food / Openers, Bulk Rice, Bulk Salt, etc., turn basement cold-room into usable, sealed storage area
- Water (1 gal per person / per day), Hand-Pump -> Well-Line, Extra-large Ballast Tank, Water Purifier, Dry Sodium Hypochlorite (10-year life, pool-shock, @ .5-1 tsp/ 1 gal water), Sun-Proof Storage, Water Filters, Buckets -> Flushing)
- Propane Stove & Space Heater (30-Days/90-Meals and heating fuel reserve), Wood Supply, Crank Radio/CB/Flashlights/Lanterns, Sleeping Bags, Fleece Gear, Axe/Hatchet/2-Man Crosscut Saw, Knives/Sharpeners, Plastic Sheeting & Duct-Tape, Disposable Lighters & Magnesium Fire-Starters, Back-Packs, Tents, Tarps, Rope, Stakes
- Medical Supplies (antibiotics, allergy meds, bandages, band-aids, splints, etc.)
- Household and Bath (Toilet Paper, Toothpaste, Shampoo, Laundry Dertergent, etc.)
- Fuel (Gasoline, Propane, etc.)

Long-Term Prep List (these are all in process to one degree or another already)
- Vegetable Garden (Beds, Greenhouse, non-hybrid seeds, Gardening Tools)
- Livestock (Garage -> Barn, Chickens, Goats, Dogs)
- Canning Tools
- Fireplace inserts for heat and wood stoves for cooking

I am also putting in a very deep second French drain around the front of my house to eliminate my current need for an electric sump pump each Spring... once every couple of years I lose electricity when it REALLY hurts and my basement floods... I'd rather be able to do without juice without risking serious issues like that...


Haycock

[El Chivo]

I do have a place scouted out to run to if there's a big emergency that locks up the city.

I'm keen on getting to know my air rifle because on a day to day basis, the only "game" that I can count on being around are small non-game birds.

A 12-gauge would work but that's a lot of noise just to make some soup.

Game like rabbits and deer would be pretty few and far between.

Anything else I have would be fine for fighting a rampaging LA mob for an hour or so. I think it would be smart to have a handgun, because there are different levels of emergencies. For example there could be a really high crime rate but we will still be going to work and grocery stores.

If there is a real riot I don't think any perps would try to assault a position where there's shooting back. I think they would just go down the street.

[Old Ironsights]

IMO .38/.357 in stainless is about the perfect bad times gun.

No, it is not a "firefight" or "sniper" gun, but it has lots of readily available, easily reloadable ammunition, is accurate, heavy enough out to 150yds for 2-leg goblins and decreases supply chain problems of multiple calibers in your BoB.

If you need somthing "better" the .357 will get it for you.

What's a "BoB"?

Quinn

Bug-Out-Bag

If you can't stay hunkered down and the roads are blocked your BoB is your lifeline.

[505stevec]

My $.02... being prepared is no joke (old scout here). Here is the list I am using to drive actual prep-steps I am actively taking as time & money permit (i.e. a bunch of this is already accomplished).

I will leave out the guns, since that topic is done to death pretty often (TEOTWAWKI comes... pick your guns... we've all played it), but I will say that having a battery which includes enough firearms and ammo for multiple family members across diverse calibers/types (CF rifles/handguns, RF rifles/handguns, shotguns, etc.) and at least one good hunting bow is my general approach. Also, to keep this on topic, I will say that of the guns I have in-scope for this plan four are levers!

Okay, so...

30-Day Prep List
- 30-Days/90-Meals dried-food reserve (Mountain House, Alpen Aire, Rainy Day Foods), #10 Cans, Mylar pouches, Canned Food / Openers, Bulk Rice, Bulk Salt, etc., turn basement cold-room into usable, sealed storage area
- Water (1 gal per person / per day), Hand-Pump -> Well-Line, Extra-large Ballast Tank, Water Purifier, Dry Sodium Hypochlorite (10-year life, pool-shock, @ .5-1 tsp/ 1 gal water), Sun-Proof Storage, Water Filters, Buckets -> Flushing)
- Propane Stove & Space Heater (30-Days/90-Meals and heating fuel reserve), Wood Supply, Crank Radio/CB/Flashlights/Lanterns, Sleeping Bags, Fleece Gear, Axe/Hatchet/2-Man Crosscut Saw, Knives/Sharpeners, Plastic Sheeting & Duct-Tape, Disposable Lighters & Magnesium Fire-Starters, Back-Packs, Tents, Tarps, Rope, Stakes
- Medical Supplies (antibiotics, allergy meds, bandages, band-aids, splints, etc.)
- Household and Bath (Toilet Paper, Toothpaste, Shampoo, Laundry Dertergent, etc.)
- Fuel (Gasoline, Propane, etc.)

Long-Term Prep List (these are all in process to one degree or another already)
- Vegetable Garden (Beds, Greenhouse, non-hybrid seeds, Gardening Tools)
- Livestock (Garage -> Barn, Chickens, Goats, Dogs)
- Canning Tools
- Fireplace inserts for heat and wood stoves for cooking

I am also putting in a very deep second French drain around the front of my house to eliminate my current need for an electric sump pump each Spring... once every couple of years I lose electricity when it REALLY hurts and my basement floods... I'd rather be able to do without juice without risking serious issues like that...


Haycock

Wow, you are getting there. I just read a book called Lucifer's Hammer. basically about a Commet hitting the earth and life changing. Great book to make you think about surviving the "what if". Guns and ammo are great but there is so much that we take for granted every day. It looks like you have been planning for this for a while. Some time ago some one posted that the ultimate survival gun would be a .22 rifle. The reason is you could conceivably carry a couple thousand rounds on your person as opposed to an assault rifle. I used to have one of those AR-7s that break down into the stock. Ugly but probably great for keeping in a backpack with a brick of .22s. I think if Hurricane Katrina happened where I live I would encourage all my close family to band together to last out the situation. The article about .22 penetration at 300 meters was very interesting. sure an EBR is going to be great to fight of the bad guys but i think a good ol 9422 is a great choice also for survival. Very inaucuous but holds 15 rounds.

[44LVR]

Many others talk of leverguns as their "go to gun". What is your status in a bad times scenario. I know most of what we talk here is hunting or just plain "shooting fun" with leverguns but how many are prepared in their local for this type of scenario?

I have a loaded 24" Marlin Cowboy in .44 mag beside the bed. It is my 'go to gun'. I'm not much on military or lookalike rifles, just never have been around 'em. So I'm just most comfortable with a levergun. I live way back in the woods where I have to have satellite for TV and internet and run things with a generator. Chances of the bad guys (though they could turn out to be the neighbors) finding me, at least the ones with military training and looking to shoot the place up, are probably pretty slim.

And I have a little bit of ammo for my rifle

44

[AJMD429]

"What is a BoB"

"BoB" is a "bug out bag" or as the Mormons and others refer to it, a "72 hour kit" - just the stuff you have to grab if:

A flood gives you 5 minutes to vacate your home (happened to my partner last month - she was leaving by boat within a few minutes of waking up).

You get a call for a job interview tomorrow that is 12 hour's drive away, and you hadn't prepared.

Tornado takes out the local power grid and it will be 3 days before you can live normally again.

Terrorists disrupt the social infrastructure, and you have 72 hours to get to your homestead.

-----------------

The thing is, FEW if any of us will be "surviving" by hunting deer, picking berries, knowing which roots are edible, and fishing with worms. I live one county away from 750,000 people, and virtually none of them have the resources (money or land) to survive 72 hours without electricity. Most would turn nasty by then, and 'head for the hills' - so those of us who live in 'the hills' and have a nice garden, some chickens, and so on, while THEORETICALLY being 'prepared' - are in no way ready or able to resist a literal STAMPEDE of 750,000 individuals who have 'only' one gun, and 'only' ten rounds of ammunition, an attitude, and the desparation to drive them to do whatever it takes to get food, shelter, etc.

IF you live far enough away from the 'city' that the half-million or so who might come your way have already met up with another half-million homesteaders en route, the herd will have been thinned a bit, but you'll still be FAR more likely to be using your firearms for self-defense than for 'hunting.'

What do you think the deer in your area would do if a few THOUSAND desparate, hungry, and armed people were to storm across your county en route to the 'hills' - they'd be gone in a flash. You likely won't be around when they return, unless you survived the stampede.

So...for those of us who live within say 50-100 miles of a large city, which is the majority of the population aside from those who live IN the city, we'd be 'safe' if we had an Abrams tank or attack helicopter, but otherwise, we're no better off than those who live in the city.

Sorry if this bursts anyone's bubble, but I just don't see the survivability of any position within a hundred miles of a large city, and even then, you'd need a LARGE area, and dozens of families united to protect it.

Good luck on developing such an inter-family infrastructure in such a remote area between now and MHTL.

[mikld]

Living in Earthquake country, I stay prepared. I have about 2 weeks supply of food, water, and sanitary stuff. I've got my First Responder's Kit (1st Aid, tools, etc.) and about $1k in small bills, plus some silver rounds. I love reloading so I've got about 500 to 600 rounds for the "Twins" (My 44 magnums). I should be able to take care of myself and my wife for a few weeks.

Because of my location (LA, CA) not much chance of "Bugging Out".

[tman]

lots to choose from; m4, rem 870, various .22's. a model 92 in .357s&w makes a lot of sense. started looking at the kel-tec 2000 in .9mm, especially with the 33 round mags. don't have one, but this one may fill the bill.

[jeepnik]

Okay, first alot is determined by what causes the uproar, and where you are. Now if it's an all out nuke attack beginning WWIII, I have no worries. I'm vapor.

But say it's a natural disaster. Where I live, that would most likely be an earthquake, and possible tsunami. Well the house is as quake prepared as possible, and I live high enough above sea level that a tsunami probably won't get me. So "if" I survive the "big one", I would just shelter in place. I've got plenty of food and water (like a great big ocean). Shelter isn't a big issue, as even in winter it's pretty mild here, compared to other places. But I have a good tent in my supplies. I really doubt I'd be facing a horde or armed folks determined to take what I have. But, should that happen, I've got a fairly large selection of long and short arms from which to choose. This includes, of course leverguns, but also semiauto "battle" rifles. And, everthing from single shot pistols to tupperware high capacity semi autos.

The third, but very rare possibility, is a total breakdown of society. No way to predict how things would go. So, fall back to natural disaster plan.

Of course, I've got a jeep that is capable or moving even through a post big one landscape. Should the need to depart arise, that is one way out. But, I might be better taking my boat. The ocean is closer than the hills, and traffic would be much less congested.

It all come down to options. Truthfully, I doubt I'll ever see any sort of major catastrophy. But, even though I was never a boy scout (short pants ) I try to be prepared.

[Hillbilly]

I guess whatever is near the front of the safe will do for me. And it would depend on the scenario. The 30-30 or .22 would get me a bigger shooter if they dont get me first.

You guys living near big metro areas.... that will be tough in any event.

Post Andrew in the WPB area...(not that bad) a short shotgun and .357 was good to go. After living in hurricane country for a long time we are pretty good about keeping a few days supplies around and looter medicine on hand.

The grace of God factors into any and all of this...just my opinion.

Hill

[Comal Forge]

In most situations, it's likely that people will do what people have done recently - in China after the earthquake, Myanmar's cyclone, Katrina, etc. - they bury the dead, dress the wounded and help each other overcome the catastrophe. Total breakdown of society would result in massive loss of life - similar to what is normally seen during war - lots of refugees and brutality. Another issue to consider is that if any elements of the government are involved (ours or theirs), then you won't have a chance since they have night vision and A-10's. It will be akin to the mujadeen fighting the Soviets before Charlie Wilson got into the picture.

[jeepnik]

In most situations, it's likely that people will do what people have done recently - in China after the earthquake, Myanmar's cyclone, Katrina, etc. - they bury the dead, dress the wounded and help each other overcome the catastrophe. Total breakdown of society would result in massive loss of life - similar to what is normally seen during war - lots of refugees and brutality. Another issue to consider is that if any elements of the government are involved (ours or theirs), then you won't have a chance since they have night vision and A-10's. It will be akin to the mujadeen fighting the Soviets before Charlie Wilson got into the picture.

Well, except for taking out air threats, the mujahaden did a fair job. As did the Philipinos in WWII, and the Moro's before that.

[Hobie]

When the feces hits the oscillating air movement device Mr. Murphy is usually fully in charge of the situation. IME, he will demand that you dance with the one you're with. I.e. what's at hand is what you'll have to use and may be all you'll be left with. So, when you spend $800 on a nice Colt 1911 type pistol but have a Taurus .38 in the glove box because you don't want to lose the 1911 and trouble starts the 1911 is worthless to you. Same for any other tools you might think appropriate to your circumstances.

BTW, I know a guy who carries his bike in the back of his truck everywhere he goes. Yes, he's used it, too!

[AndyM]

When I think of survivalism - I think of New Orleans a few short years ago. Total lawlessness and the so-called police where nowhere to be found. It was up to you to protect your life and those around you. I think, when/if faced with that situation - I would grab my Glock 23 and load the Puma 92 in 45 LC - although the Remington 11-87 with the plug out would be close by also.

[FWiedner]

Maybe I'm only repaeating part of what Hobie said, I'm not sure.

Depends on where you are and what you've got WHEN "survival" tools become necessary. Bad things don't happen on a set schedule. They might be "expected", but you just can't really predict when the storm is gonna peak.

If I'm located at my primary stronghold, no problem, all resources are or will be available. Bugging out is not Plan A in my book. I've got an off-site cache just in case some disaster occurs at the abode. If I'm remote, the pickings are just a bit more slim, and in my mind that's the eventuallity where I'll need more refined preparation.

In any event, to paraphrase Donny Rumsfeld, "You'll go with what you've got." Just make sure that you've got what you need, or something to replace it until you can get there.

[adirondakjack]

I guess my "comfort" thought when I contemplate the "what if" scenarios is I have 12 ga and always have a couple hundred shells, Ihave LOTS of .45 ammo and multiple guns, short and long that will shoot it. I also have componenets and powder enough to knock out a quick couple thousand rounds if I need to. I also have a fair quantity of .22 RF on hand (who knows, maybe 3K or so), and several arms of every major type chambered for it. That, a fly rod and a backup generator that will hold food long enough until we need to decide to cook/can/dry our supplies and we're "all good" here for some time. BUT, I'm not in a major urban area, nor along a main road. I figure we have some geography working to mitigate feral human influx. Locals gone haywire we can deal with.

as to leverguns per se, they are generally reliable, and if ya have two or more, chances are ya won't experience multiple failures that wouldn't allow canabalizing to fix at least one....

[lever-4-life]

Between my neighbors and I we have 4 bucket wells 1 windmill pumped pond, A year round creek full of trout, 2 large gardens, one small orchard, plenty of trees for fire wood, and one of the most game loaded areas in the state.

If the bad times happen I think I will "Bug In" rather than out. In california we are "protected" from evil rifles such as Ar's and ak's But we still can have mini-14's, sks, and the various M1's. my tool of choice would be a m1 carbine or a 30-30.

I do have a BoB that I take with me on trips so I can try my best to get back to my place. I am thinking of getting some goats as live live stock. If anybody has any info on them such as milk production or care please let me know

[Paladin]

“The thing is, FEW if any of us will be "surviving" by hunting deer, picking berries, knowing which roots are edible, and fishing with worms. I live one county away from 750,000 people, and virtually none of them have the resources (money or land) to survive 72 hours without electricity. Most would turn nasty by then, and 'head for the hills' - so those of us who live in 'the hills' and have a nice garden, some chickens, and so on, while THEORETICALLY being 'prepared' - are in no way ready or able to resist a literal STAMPEDE of 750,000 individuals who have 'only' one gun, and 'only' ten rounds of ammunition, an attitude, and the desperation to drive them to do whatever it takes to get food, shelter, etc.”

The government after Katrina across the country was told to prepare for evacuation of the cities and concluded the areas within one gas tank‘s travel of the big cities would have to cope with the mass of evacuees. That makes the cities a problem for about 450 miles around it and AJMD429 is correct.
It is always better to be prepared with a BOB, supplies, trained in all aspects of survival, friends to take with you, to a farm, cabin, or safe house. What some associates have done was invite a small group of the same thinking types to meet in a given area to start a retreat for what we hope never happens.

It will take more than one family to provide the safety and resources for the worse case scenario. There is a reason Special Operations teaches the buddy system under penalty for not using it.

[lever-4-life]

You are right about the flood of people, but not everybody will flea to the same place. If a global pandemic or something else realy bad went down I would fall trees across the roads into my town (a full 23 people). My former profession was a logger and I can fell about 12 large trees in about a 60 min time frame large in this case is 150' evergreens. with a road that is way out of the way as it is and a barricade of trees along with some local folks (not me, I am TOO trusting...) that plane just don't like people I find It very hard to count on a fleet of people beating down my door.

[dbateman]

winchesters idear of a L.T.R top 30-30 trapper bottom 45lc

and just in case 375 NOW THATS FIRE POWER!!

[El Chivo]

I don't think many people will head for the mountains, but to normal places like towns and ranches. Whatever is along the road or highway. Truck stops will become campgrounds, etc.

But I think most will stay home and wait to be rescued.

I don't think it would be more than a week or so before electricity and water are restored after a big earthquake, and if it's a riot, the utilities would probably not be interrupted at all. If things like that are working most people would deal with other problems.

[bunklocoempire]

Between my neighbors and I we have 4 bucket wells 1 windmill pumped pond, A year round creek full of trout, 2 large gardens, one small orchard, plenty of trees for fire wood, and one of the most game loaded areas in the state.

If the bad times happen I think I will "Bug In" rather than out. In california we are "protected" from evil rifles such as Ar's and ak's But we still can have mini-14's, sks, and the various M1's. my tool of choice would be a m1 carbine or a 30-30.

I do have a BoB that I take with me on trips so I can try my best to get back to my place. I am thinking of getting some goats as live live stock. If anybody has any info on them such as milk production or care please let me know

From your other post sounds like your set up pretty good water and so forth, don't know your rainfall but catchment is never a bad idea either.

Here are a few goat 'links', mmmm sausage.

http://www.sheepandgoat.com/goatlnks.html

And you may consider rabbits as well, you only need two cause they breed like...rabbits.
http://www.rudolphsrabbitranch.com/rrr.htm
http://www.thebrc.org/diet.htm

We've got a beef critter and two sheep, pretty low maintenace cause we're not looking to cash in, just eat. The beef critter gets a topical wormer about every other month -mineral lick, ti leaves & a few alfalfa cube 'treats', the sheep get an oral wormer and their hooves trimmed when needed -ti leaves & small bit of game cock mix. The three animals have lotsa water & plenty good pasture (bout 7 acres). We're planning on more sheep, and another beef critter.

Wifey and I are truly blessed, I've got my mother-in-law on sight (a blessing in my case ) and workable land and space for our kids and my folks should they need to vacate their more populated area.

Like others mentioned, ya run what ya brung. Any lead slinger will do, just make sure you have lead/spare parts and you and family/friends can load it and sling it.

Never a bad idea to get out of the cities if you can afford to move, or have a relatives/friends place to crash, at least make sure you know who your neighbors are -city or country.

Bunkloco

[AJMD429]

If anybody has any info on them such as milk production or care please let me know

Goats - Nubians best dairy (IMO) and Boer's for meat, but interbreeds exist, and Nubians are certainly edible! They are 'social' like horses, and want other hooved animals (preferably goats) to be with. Breed on their own. Don't always nurse their young, so sometimes you have to bottle-feed babies. Milking is easy and maybe 5 minutes per goat tops. Machines help and can be home-made with just a couple 'factory' parts (pulsator and teat cups). Indoors they'd need a bale per goat every 3 days of mix alfalfa/grass or little to no hay if lots of pasture. They are BROWSERS like deer, not GRAZERS, so they like open wooded areas also, and they will not graze down to mud like other animals. They graze to just about a "mowed" appearance. Countryside Magazine and Small Stock Journal has lots of articles on homesteading and in particular goats and chickens, as they are easy to raise, handle, house, and so forth. While lactating (rest them half the year) you'll get maybe a gallon per animal per day easily, and it freezes well and is higher in cream content than cow milk. Milking three times a day gives highest yield, but twice a day is really enough.

[redhawk]

For some great information on "survival" or "fighting" with leverguns, check out Gabe Suarez's Warrior Talk Forum at www.warriortalk.com and read his article titled "fighting leverguns". It is a great read with lots of "practical" information.

[Charles]

I am not one of those who see society crumbling and am stocked up to survive a social collapse. I am much more sanguine about American and human nature in general. The survival folks have a very dark view of the future that I do not share.

That side, I do recall some of the urban riots that take place every once in a while. I have plenty of stuff around my house to deal with such a thing should it occur in my neighborhood.

Now, I am certain there are some on this board who feel my head is up my wazoo on this issue, so there is no reason for them to try and correct my thinking. Lets just think and let think on this issue.

[jeepnik]

I am not one of those who see society crumbling and am stocked up to survive a social collapse. I am much more sanguine about American and human nature in general. The survival folks have a very dark view of the future that I do not share.

That side, I do recall some of the urban riots that take place every once in a while. I have plenty of stuff around my house to deal with such a thing should it occur in my neighborhood.

Now, I am certain there are some on this board who feel my head is up my wazoo on this issue, so there is no reason for them to try and correct my thinking. Lets just think and let think on this issue.

Charles, nope, you don't suffer from the syndrome you mentioned. Like I said in my post, natural disaster is the most likely problem we would face. Most folks have more of what they need to "survive" a disaster than they think. They just don't know how to think outside the box. I can still recall the pictures of the New Orleans citizens standing in knee high water with dogs walking in the background as they complained about being thirsty and hungry. They were city dwellers who had lost the knowledge needed to obtain food and clean drinking water.

The occassional riots usually cover a very small geographical area. So unless you live in that particular area, generally you're quite safe. And if you do live in the riot area, and aren't prepared to protect yourself, just get out. But again, most folks caught in that circumstance just don't "think".

Our spieces is loosing the instinct for survival. Rather than act, many folks just stand around ringing their hands waiting for someone to save them. I actually think that some of our more popular westerns are partly responsible for this. They generally show a town cowed by a few armed outlaws. Unable to protect themselves, they wait for the lone hero to ride in and save the day. Folks have been taught they can't take care of themselves, so why even try.

[donw]

the 38/357 lever with a companion revolver is an excellent choice. a good all around "utility" round for almost any purpose outside of cape buff and elephant we may be exposed to and most of us are familiar with.

keeping the city folks fleeing the city from our assets out here in the rural area will be the difficulty. almost any round or combination of weaponry would suffice under those conditions.

that being said, the situation involving a "red dawn" scenerio, to "mow 'em down" would have to involve my 9mm p9, p95dc, 870 remington with 00 buck and slugs or kel tec 5.56 carbine & 1911 .45. but let's face it; if it's a military/ law enforcment attack...not much chance of stand up against it unless we have superior numbers...and do you think the governors of most states would stand by and let LEO get whipped without calling in the NG? not likely and what's the NG? the Army/AF/usmc/usn in civilian attire standing by.

i sincerely doubt we will have much time to pick our own time and place if a situation involving societal collapse, though...chaos, in other words. but, planning ahead may buy some time.

lets hope we never have to act on it.

NOTE: jeepnik...i agree with the last part of your statement. we are trained to be victims..."call the cops"..."don't take the law into your own hands"..."get an adult"..."get a teacher"...even the law does not support "taking up for yourself" under most conditions...and if you do: you'd darned well better be able to justify what you did.

[Old Ironsights]

don +1.

If I "need" more than my .357 combo (&/or the .22 & .45-70 if I can tote them) I will "aquire" somthing more "tacticool"... if I have to make it myself.

Knowing how to build a 9mm subgun from off-the-shelf stock steel/tubing is must-have knowledge IMO.

[Idahoser]

... I just read a book called Lucifer's Hammer...

Great book, before I ever heard of the acronym in question I loved that story. A good consideration of the situation along with a really good novel.
A thorough consideration also would be Unintended Consequences by John Ross.

But I have to tell you, and this may ought to be a new thread so everybody sees it again since I think last time it was mentioned was the old forum, my favorite story on the subject was
(caution, this is a link to the PDF, you should right-click/download rather than just open)
LIGHTS OUT! by HalfFast. That guy really should get that published. I printed the whole thing and we all read it and couldn't wait for the person reading the section we were on next.

And for no particular reason but that we're linking to books (well, I am) here's a couple more everybody ought to have copies of:
I got referred to this book, bought it, and uploaded it:
How to Shoot the US Army Rifle aside from the book is a 'sighting device' you could make a copy of, and an article that was stuck in as a bookmark from the "Infantry Journal" magazine about point shooting.
And these WWII Army training movies on the same subject:
Rifle Marksmanship with the M1 Rifle

[Poohgyrr]

Meds and related supplies are an important part of this as well. Staying home has some advantages; driving out brings more fuel and spare parts into the picture. I still think pack animals begin to look better than vehicles for travel.

For extended timelines, what is likely to be available through the underground??

[Old Ironsights]

Meds and related supplies are an important part of this as well. Staying home has some advantages; driving out brings more fuel and spare parts into the picture. I still think pack animals begin to look better than vehicles for travel.

For extended timelines, what is likely to be available through the underground??

Yeah. No kidding.

My wife is only alive because of her Schedule "A"s... and the ability to get those to "stock up" or during/after a major meltdown of any type will be iffy at best (Thank you DEA... )

That is my single biggest issue in a localized bad times or TEOTWAWKI scenerio.

[Idahoser]

What to use for money would be important. Gold will end up useful in decades, but you better not trust anybody who's not an assayer on what it's worth; nobody else will either for a good long while. However barter material is readily available - ammo, alcohol, cigarettes, guns, canned food and bottled water. Stuff you might use up in your lifetime that it's a pretty good idea to stock up anyway. No need to go in debt buying gold when it's probably already peaked.

[Malamute]

I'm not an "end-of-the-worlder", but looking at various situations that entailed longer term disturbances, paper money has generally held some value in trade, unless the problem was an economic breakdown of the local gov and economy. Even in that case, US cash often is used as the standard for trade in foreign countries. Anything that's used for trade, even gold, only has value if that value can be agreed upon by the next guy down the line you wan to trade it to. What practical use is an ordinary person going to have for gold? It's valuable because we're told it is, but what do you actually do with it? We arent going to use it for "industrial uses" as is often forwarded as the reason it would be valuable in tough times. I for one, wouldn't want to lug around a basically useless heavy metal for trade, particularly if paper currency was still used as a basis for local trade. It's all an abstract value to me, only useful if everyone agrees on it's value. Are you going to trade $700 worth of gold (or whatever a $20 gold piece is worth nowadays) for a box of rifle shells, when a $20 bill would buy the same thing? The local trade will sort out the practial value of anything used for trade. I believe cash will always have value in local economies. Everyone is used to using it, and it's a practical medium to use and carry.

I also wouldnt want to haul around a bunch of extra ammo to trade, or take it in trade, if I had enough on hand to make out.


Just my thoughts on the matter.

[Lefty Dude]

If anybody has any info on them such as milk production or care please let me know

Goats - Nubians best dairy (IMO) and Boer's for meat, but interbreeds exist, and Nubians are certainly edible! They are 'social' like horses, and want other hooved animals (preferably goats) to be with. Breed on their own. Don't always nurse their young, so sometimes you have to bottle-feed babies. Milking is easy and maybe 5 minutes per goat tops. Machines help and can be home-made with just a couple 'factory' parts (pulsator and teat cups). Indoors they'd need a bale per goat every 3 days of mix alfalfa/grass or little to no hay if lots of pasture. They are BROWSERS like deer, not GRAZERS, so they like open wooded areas also, and they will not graze down to mud like other animals. They graze to just about a "mowed" appearance. Countryside Magazine and Small Stock Journal has lots of articles on homesteading and in particular goats and chickens, as they are easy to raise, handle, house, and so forth. While lactating (rest them half the year) you'll get maybe a gallon per animal per day easily, and it freezes well and is higher in cream content than cow milk. Milking three times a day gives highest yield, but twice a day is really enough.

I was raised on Goats Milk. We had 2 Nubian Does, they produced enough Milk for our family of five. Dad sold the Goats in the late 1950's, alfalfa got to be very expensive and us children were all in our last years of H.S.. We butchered the young Billies, and goat is a very good sweet meat.

Yep, Goats & Chickens are very easy keepers.

[donw]

what good is gold or money if there is a cultural/societal (anarchy) break down? lead would be more useful medium...bullets...

[Old Ironsights]

what good is gold or money if there is a cultural/societal (anarchy) break down? lead would be more useful medium...bullets...

Black Powder and alcohol:

(A) - C - G - D - E (2x)

CHORUS:
A
Black powder and alcohol,
D
When the states and the cities fall,
G E
When your back is against the wall;
A
Black powder and alcohol.


A
Gimme charcoal to the measure two:
F
Send the bullet where you want it to.
D
Gimme sulphur to the measure three:
A
Make the powder gonna keep you free.
G E
Gimme saltpetre, measure fifteen:
A
Sweetest shooting that you've ever seen! (chorus)

Gimme water, yeast, and veggie-trash:
Leave it sitting in the slurry-mash.
When it's ready, put it in the still:
If you can't heat it, then the sunlight will.
Draw the alcohol away, and then
Put the slurry back, and start again! (chorus)

Booze'll clean your cuts, or run your car.
You can make it anywhere you are.
Black powder in your cartridge shell
Will send the robbers running clean to Hell.
You can make them if you just know how.
So kids, remember what I tell you now! (chorus & repeat
chorus)

(c) 9/1/85 by Leslie Fish and Random Factors

[Levant]

I'm not an "end-of-the-worlder", but looking at various situations that entailed longer term disturbances, paper money has generally held some value in trade

Remember the civil war? Me either, but I read about it. Confederate money was utterly worthless as it ended. Paper money has never had any value other than what we're told its value is - even more so than gold. Gold is worthless as a survival commodity, too.

Scotch - now that is something that is going to have value, both cheap Scotch and good Scotch.

As for good stores, they're not going to last as long as folks think, either. If I have food, how do I eat while my adult children starve? If My son comes to my house to eat and brings his wife, she won't eat while her parents starve. And her parents won't eat while their other children or their brothers and sisters starve. See the pattern here? In order to feed my own children, I have to feed extended families as far as my food will go. I figure a year's supply of food will last a few weeks in the end - travel time to get here to eat it. Besides all of that, there are those who would try to take my food if I had any. Of course if a stranger showed up with a gun to take my food, I'd try my hardest to stop him but if he showed up with a bunch of women and children in tow and an empty hand asking for food, how could I turn him away?

[crawdaddyjim]

Society won't just disappear. But there will be a bunch of people who don't know squat about living off the land. If they show up and think that force will get them what they seek then our family and friends will make it awful costly. If they come with hands out then there will always be work to trade for.

Once you have no need for the extras in life. Then it becomes easy to know what is to be done.
1.Shelter

2.Water

3.Food

It pays to know your neighbors and know them well enough to depend on them or not.

The rule is: Those that pray together, stay together.

Jim

[505stevec]

You know? I have been giving this survival EOTWAWKI thing a thought. If a situation arrises, people in inner cities will act like they do now. Many liberals in cities will not know how to take care of themselves. Predators will still prey on the weak. People in smaller cities will have to cut out many of the things we take for granted but there are fewer predators out here thus less problems. Country people are self relient anyway. Look back to the pioneer days or even when the pilgrims and later settlers came to our shores. They made due and learned by trial and error. Yes there was starvation and privation but they learned to make due. In their time they came from cities with all the modern conveniences and had to learn or die. Many of them had no idea what they were getting into. That is probably what would happen. Teh pioneers moving west were the same way. They survived with a wagon load of stuff. Many died trying to learn but many lived also. They believed in God and so do I so I guess I would keep on learning and make due.

[Malamute]

"Remember the civil war? Me either, but I read about it. Confederate money was utterly worthless as it ended."


That's a good correlation,...if we lose a civil war, but I don't think that's likely. Even so, the current US currency has a longer history of use, and much more widespread. I agree with you about gold being a basiclly useless survival commodity, it's value has only ever been what somebody else will give you for it, and it's generally been a dollar figure for most of the past couple hundred years. People will still need and desire some medium of exchange. Quarters of beef or even deer and hard to carry around for trade use, and it still needs some agreed upon value to be useful in trade. Even the fur traders had a monetary value to their trade, even if cash had little use to the trappers outside of their rondesvous or post. You need a starting point of value that people agree on to trade.


As to the topic, I'd prefer a lever gun or a scoped sporter as a working gun in hard times to any black gun, but I'm in a very rural, out of the way area, and not even close to any population center. Mobs and gangs aren't much of an issue.

[Ron Macy]

There's a big article on "Spanish Goats" in this months "Hobby Farms" magazine. Less care and hands on than other breeds and used as an improver for Boers and others due to natural immunities. Also some good information on Spanish herds at http://www.hobbyfarms.com . Lots of information on other breeds if you do a yahoo or google search on goat breeds.

One often overlooked thing about goats is the ability to use them as trekking goats. A goat in good condition can carry 30% of it's body weight. Make that 30-60 pounds depending on the size of the goat. That makes them a whole lot more usefull than me doing some backpacking. Do a search on "Goat Trekking". Numerous articles.

[kirkwood]

If you haven't done so already, everyone should read a book titled "The Great New Orleans Gun Grab". This is about as close to society falling apart as we have come in this country in the last 20 years. The biggest problem that people who stayed behind faced was from roving bands of law enforcement (including many cops coming from other parts of the US) who drew down on everyone and confiscated any weapons they could find. This occurred not only in the city, but in rural areas in surrounding parishes and people trying to provide emergency services to those in need. It wasn't until the National Guard came into the area that people could begin to get some relief from the cops.

Katrina totally changed my opinion on how to survive a disaster and it does not involve hunkering down in a well-stocked home, but being as mobile as possible and avoiding anyone in law enforcement in the disaster area because they are not there to help you.