.44/40 and large deer

[Carlsen Highway]

When I say large deer I am talking about Red deer. I know they have some in Texas or somewhere so some of you may have hunted them before....
(They are about the size of Mule deer. Although thats just a guess, as I have never met a Mule deer in my life.)

How do you guy feel about the .44/40 on deer like this?

I have fallow deer round here which is just perfect for I reckon, they are about the size of whitetail deer and the shots are not long, 100 yards would be a long one.
I kow its a subject that can get fairly opiionated...I have a .30/30 also and no argument there that its a fine caliber. But i really like the little 92 carbine and its perfect for the heavy bush, which is sort of like...elk hunting in mountains clothed with Vietnamese jungle.

I an being disengenuous...I have already decided I am happy shooting red deer with this caliber, god knows enough deer shot over here witht he .222 remington, just wondered what you guys might have thought, who are .44/40 fans.

[20cows]

It'll do fine, particularly at the ranges you mention.

A great number of beasts fell to the .44-40 before the .30-30 came around.

[w30wcf]

Carlsen Highway,
+2 to what 20cows said, providing the ammunition used would be at least the equivalent of original .44-40 b.p. ammo (200 gr. @ 1,250-1,300 f.p.s.).
Modern .44-40 "Cowboy" ammunition is not up to that standard. Current 200 gr. jacketed .44-40 factory ammunition is closer (1,190 f.p.s.).

In the book "Legendary Deer Camps" there is a picture of a large 250+ plus whitetail deer taken in the 1870's with a '73 Winchester .44 W.C.F. (.44-40) using factory black powder ammunition. NEAT!

If your rifle is a '92 Winchester or '94 Marlin, and you would like a little extra insurance, I would suggest a loading approximating the early .44-40 W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridge (1,500-1,600 f.p.s.). That could only be accomplished by handloading.

Good luck,
w30wcf

[Slick13]

If your rifle is a '92 Winchester or '94 Marlin, and you would like a little extra insurance, I would suggest a loading approximating the early .44-40 W.H.V. (Winchester High Velocity) cartridge (1,500-1,600 f.p.s.). That could only be accomplished by handloading.

Just make sure there are no single action Colts or Colt clones around for those reloads to accidentally find their way into!

650 lb for the average stag... that's a little big. I'm sure with a well placed shot a .44-40 should work, but personally I think .30-30 is as "small" as I'd go with an animal that size.

~Michael

[KirkD]

I know what you are doing. You like the '92 and the 44-40 and you want some encouragement. I'll confess to the same thing. There are some rifles and calibers that I just love, and the '92 in 44-40 is one of them. W30wcf has given you good advice. The 44-40 using original BP velocities will be just fine, provided your shot placement is correct. However, as w30wcf says, extra insurance can be had by using Winchester's original HV ballistics. A 200 grain at 1,565 fps has a momentum of 45 ft-lbs/sec. A 170 grain 30-30 bullet at 2,000 fps has a momentum of 49 ft-lbs/sec. This is not a lot of difference. When you factor in the 44-40's larger diameter, any advantage the 30-30 170 grain bullet had is pretty much taken care of. However, even at 1,300 fps, the 44-40 will do the job with proper shot placement. It's kind of like archery; you need a bit more finesse, but that's part of the challenge and enjoyment.

[Slick13]

I know what you are doing. You like the '92 and the 44-40 and you want some encouragement. I'll confess to the same thing. There are some rifles and calibers that I just love, and the '92 in 44-40 is one of them. W30wcf has given you good advice. The 44-40 using original BP velocities will be just fine, provided your shot placement is correct. However, as w30wcf says, extra insurance can be had by using Winchester's original HV ballistics. A 200 grain at 1,565 fps has a momentum of 45 ft-lbs/sec. A 170 grain 30-30 bullet at 2,000 fps has a momentum of 49 ft-lbs/sec. This is not a lot of difference. When you factor in the 44-40's larger diameter, any advantage the 30-30 170 grain bullet had is pretty much taken care of. However, even at 1,300 fps, the 44-40 will do the job with proper shot placement. It's kind of like archery; you need a bit more finesse, but that's part of the challenge and enjoyment.

I'm not familiar with the measurement ft lbs/sec (please explain it so I can better understand the discussion), but when comparing the Winchester .30-30 and .44-40 factory loads (I know the latter is light), the .30-30 has three times the muzzle energy.

I've no experience with the .44-40, but I do have some with the .30-30. 2000 fps muzzle velocity is on the low side with a 170 gr. bullet. Winchester factory loads give near 2200 fps out of my '94 carbine depending on the weather, and getting reloads over 2100 fps is no problem at all (and 2300 fps with a 150 gr. bullet doesn't take much work either). I don't know how safe or easy (the brass itself being the weak link) it is to get the .44-40 to the velocities you're talking about. I know Venturino doesn't encourage it.

An animal weighing over 600 lbs is a big animal, with big bones. I'm sure a .44-40, even at black powder levels could kill it. I just think the .30-30 will make the kill cleaner/faster. If I was going to use a black powder cartridge, I want something with more bullet weight (like 300+ grains).

~Michael

[Griff]

Some wise man once said, and it's been repeated so often, I'll just continue to attribute it the man I first read wrote it. In paraphrase, or ??; there are three things that are paramount when it comes to taking game: 1 - Shot Placement, 2 - Shot Placement and finally, 3 - yep, Shot Placement.

[Nath]

This feller fell to a 30/30 at ten yards ( the red at the top). I would not hesitate the same animal within 100 hundred yards with a 44/40 if as the bow I could put it in the zone. I would also crank it as much as I could safely. Some good 44 bullets about.

Nath.

[KirkD]

Slick13, Momentum = mass x velocity. Energy=1/2 x mass x velocity x velocity. You can see from the two different equations that if there is a slight increase in velocity, it can calculate to a big difference in energy. There has been arguments back and forth for decades as to which is a better indicator of a bullet's knockdown power. Taylor, for example, felt that momentum was the better indicator. In my opinion, the momentum method does a better job in explaining why slow, heavy cartridges seem to outperform fast, light cartridges in both penetration and killing power .... to a certain extent. Bullet diameter is also a major factor, as the wider frontal area can generate significantly more hydraulic pressure, which also contributes to shock and impact.

Snooky Williamson's most powerful published 44-40 load was a 200 grain Remington bullet at 1,856 fps. He also used a 230 grain cast bullet at 1,647 fps. (Momentums of 53 and 54 ft-lbs/sec respectively). A 170 grain bullet at 2,200 fps gives a momentum of 53 ft-lbs/sec. I reload my own 30-30 bullets and do not load the 170 bullets to 2,200 fps since I do not feel it is necessary. There reaches a point where extra speed is unnecessary. Snooky's case life with his max cast loads was 3 (2 with jacketed). Personally, I think the original Winchester ballistics are fine for Red Deer provided one is committed to place the first shot properly. I'm certainly not knocking the 30-30 by any stretch of imagination .... it may well turn out to be the superior choice, but if that is the only consideration, then a 460 Rem Mag is even better. It all depends upon what the hunter wants to use (bow, muzzle loader, 44-40, 338 Win Mag, etc.) and the limitations he imposes upon himself due to his choice.

[Nath]

Spot on Kirk

Nath.

[Slick13]

Thanks for the reply Kirk.

If the original poster does use a .44-40 on a Red Deer, I'll be interested to hear the results. I'm interested in hearing how well the bullet penetrates.

~Michael

[Mike D.]

I don't know about mas and momentum, but DO know that I killed a 200+ lb 5X5 Mulie with my old Colt SA Frontier Six Shooter. Factory 200 grain soft point to the neck is all she wrote. He dropped in his tracks at 55yds. The .44 WCF has taken a sustantial number of big deer, and even elk, back in the late 19th C when it was considered powerful. It may be a has been today, yet it can still do the job.

[KirkD]

There was an interesting thread on this forum a couple years ago specifically on actual experiences with the 44-40. The general results seemed to indicate that it performs better than most of us would expect. It's not a powerhouse, but it seems to do the job with proper shot placement.

[Mike D.]

Kirk, the buck that I killed with the .44 WCF was just a target of opportunity as we were cruising the alfalfa fields on a ranch in Modoc Co, CA. No rifle in the jeep meant that the Colt was the only chance to take the deer. I was trying to hit him in the head, but missed and severed the spine at middle neck. 232 lbs, dressed and hanging in the barn. That was way back before cameras were carried everywhere, so no photos recorded the event.

[tman]

stanley, the explover, who found dr. livinston in africa in the 1870"s. was said to carry a 1866 wcf. .44henry flat. after bouncing one off of a horn of a rhino, he peticitioned oliver winchester for a more powerful round. the answer was the 44-40wcf. i think at one time it was loaded to close to 2000fps. it should work just fine.

[6pt-sika]

Carlsen , good to see you here as well as om "fishandhunt" !

I've been working with a few uhmm smaller things of late for killing deer !

The first has been a 219 Zipper which is nothing more then a 30-30 necked down to 22 caliber !
Over the years I have seen quite a few LARGE whitetails killed with 22 centerfires . The first was one my maternal grandfather wacked a very large 6 pointer in the ear with a 222 REM at a measured 100 yards and the deer dropped like a ROCK !

But here lately I have been putting some thought in to using the 32-20 with cast bullets and of all things the 32 H&R MAG with cast bullets . Based on my findings and those of others so far I think it can be done . But I'll need to keep shots close , say inside 40 yards !

And with all this being said remmember the great Jordan buck which was the #1 Typical Boone and Crockett whitetail for a number of years was killed with the little old 25-20 WCF

[KirkD]

6pt, you're really living on the edge! Keep us informed of your field trials. As I recall, Snooky Williamson took a few deer with a stoked up 32-20 load, but the 32-20 is a little small for me. A 38-40, no problem, but 32-20 ....

[Carlsen Highway]

Hey! Another fishnhunt guy. Alright.....

I was going to get a .25/20 not long ago - it was in great condition...but I dont shoot rabbits really, and I knew I would be taking it out for deer if I got it...I pulled out in the end, mostly becasue of price they want a fortune for old '92's nowadays.
I would have been happy neckshooting them with that anyway...

[6pt-sika]

6pt, you're really living on the edge! Keep us informed of your field trials. As I recall, Snooky Williamson took a few deer with a stoked up 32-20 load, but the 32-20 is a little small for me. A 38-40, no problem, but 32-20 ....

To be totally honest I had thought of doing now for about 5 years .

But had not really thought it to possible until I read Brian Pearce's article in Handloader about the 32-20 .

[Mike D.]

OK, y'all have gone and talked me into it. I'm gonna give the .44 WCF carbine that I got from Kirk a go at deer, and maybe pigs. I have a box of .429 Barnes XPBs that oughta work just fine in that gun. A stiff dose of 18 grs 2400 should do the job, I would think. I also have a good quantity of .430 lead bullets to use in the Sierra. If the hunt is succesful, you'll be the first to know.

[86er]

Muzzle engery is just a mathematical equation that creates a comparison from one cartridge to the next. However, the practicality of ME is that it is phooey. ME is a theoretical measure. Here's an example:

400 grain bullet at 2150 fps = muzzle energy of 4000 ft. lbs. Momentum 123 lbs-fps

300 grain bullet at 2500 fps = muzzle engery of 4000 ft. lbs. Momentum 107 lbs-fps

40 grain asprin at 6800 fps = muzzle engery of 4000 ft. lbs. Momentum 39 lbs-fps

Which one do you want hitting an animal? Certainly not the asprin.

Momentum is something different than ME. The more momentum an object has, the harder it is to stop.

[KirkD]

Mike, you got me all excited. That carbine will drop a deer no problem, especially with the stiff loads you like to put through it. I'll look forward to the photos.

[Mike D.]

The only problem i have, Kirk, is the dearth of bullets for the .44 WCF. As you know, that little carbine has a .429 bore, so standard .44-40 bullets of .427 diameter are not too accurate. I'm using bullets designed for the .44 Magnum, simply because that is all that are available in that size. I won't go larger than 210 grains and haven't yet tried 180s. I can use the lead around here, so far, but not down in "Condor Country" where we have pigs. I'm stuck with the hollow point copper projectiles down there. They should drop a 120-150 lb pig fairly easily, especially as close as we can get to 'em. I may have a 30 yd shot, or a 3 foot one. It can get up close and personal when you are crawling on your hands and knees under the brush.

[KirkD]

86er gave a good illustration that underscores why I prefer to evaluate my ballistics in terms of momentum rather than muzzle energy. Of course, I use cast bullets for everything.

MikeD, I never thought about how hard it might be to get jacketed 44-40 bullets. Cast bullets that are sized to .429 are not a problem to get, but they're ruled out too by the Condor people. It might be time to start swaging your own jacketed bullets like STone Fence does.

I don't understand why commercial casters size their 44-40 bullets to .427. I've never met a 44-40 with that small a groove diameter. My current vintage 44-40 has a .429 groove diameter. One thing that I found works real well with undersize 44-40 bullets is to use some toilet paper filler. I had a '73 with a .431 groove diameter (more or less .... the entire bore was a sewer pipe). With toilet paper filler, I was able to get 5" groups at 100 yards. So those .427 bullets might work .... except I just remembered that your nickel steel barrel has the later, shallow groove rifling unlike the deep grooves of the earlier guns, so I don't know if the toilet paper filler would do the job or not.

[Kansas Ed]

Of course you could also use Snooky's trick of teflon tape wrapping the bullet.

Ed

[jd45]

IIRC, you'll find the recipe for that .44WCF HV load in the rifle cartridge section of "Cartridges of the World" at your local library. Remember, if it's 2400, don't use a mag primer. And it's for use ONLY in 1892 action rifles, so the notes say. I was amazed at the 1800fps they got. Good luck. jd45

[jd45]

BTW, you CAN use, if you want to, Hornady's XTP/HP bullets for the .44MAG. They offer a 200GR & a 240GR @ .430" Should be devastating with that stout charge of 2400. jd45

[Mike D.]

My plan is to use the 200 grain bullets for the .44M. I have driven Laser-Cast 200 gr hard cast bullets to 1800 FPS without a problem, so that velocity with the jacketed will be easy. My old Lyman guide lists 27 grs of the old Alliant 2400 as a max load for the '92, but I'll never go that high. 22 grs is about top for me. I still have a half lb, or so, of that old powder that is in fine condition. I plan to finish it up pretty soon.

The old .44-44 WHV load chronoed at an average of 1625 FPS in my carbine, so it is not especially a screamer. I have actually fired those, by my being stupid and not reading ALL the headstamps, through my 1st Gen Colt SA. WOW! What a snap, but no harm to the gun. Now, that is a testament to how tough those old guns actually are.

[scr83jp]

While I was at a local club I mentioned I was planning to go out for pigs with my Encore 454casull 20" Bullberry barreled Rifle using my own 45 colt handloads but these so called " all knowing individual experts "were dead set against my plan saying I should use at least a 44-40.I load my 45 colt brass with 200gr jhp, 240gr jhp , 250gr jhp & CP 265gr HC Lead meplat up to the starting loads of 454 casull for accuracy using H 110.I just dismissed their comments.

[jd45]

Yeah, that reminds me of an instance at a gunshop many years ago where the guy behind the counter tried to tell me that the .44-40 was more powerful than the .44MAG. He obviously was laboring under the misconception that he, who worked there, knew more than anyone who might walk in the door.
Hey Carlsen!.........I didn't think any real people had last names like Highway. I thought only movie characters had names like that dreamed up by those Hollywood people for movie scripts, you know, like for Clint Eastwood in "Heartbreak Ridge"? His character's name was Sgt.Thomas Highway. Welcome to the forum! jd45

[O.S.O.K.]

For a 650 pound stag, if I had the choice of a 44-40 or a 30-30, I'd take the 30-30 hands down.

If you want a challenge then there's nothing wrong with a stoutly loaded 44-40 rifle. Just that the 30-30 with the 170 grain bullets are going to penetrate much deeper giving you many more shot possibilities. I'd prefer 170 grain Noslers...

The 200 grain .44 bullets just don't have the sectional density. They will be fine for broadside or otherwise direct shots that will get the bullet in the boiler room without traversing too much flesh - but obliqe shots should be out IMHO. And definately no shoulder shots.

Now if we were talking a 45 Colt with 300 grain bullets at 1400 fps, then it'd be another story. Ditto for 44 Mag with 300 grain pills.