25-35 Winchester Question.

[cshold]

How and or why did Winchester ever come up with
the 117 grain bullet for this round
Was this the only grain bullet available back in the day
Just seems like a strange bullet weight to me anyway.
Why not just bump it up to 120gr. Or down to 115gr.

[Last Spike]

Good question! As I recently got myself a 25-35 WCF model 94 rifle, I'm wondering the same thing.

[Hobie]

Winchester used to have a "brain trust" of experienced ballisticians lead by one guy in particular (CRS causes me to forget this important individual) who verified "their" best "guesses" with tests. They picked the best balanced loads using the bullets and powders of the time. I've never found that they were wrong. Maybe you prefer a heavier or lighter bullet but this was the best balanced given the parameters within which they were working at that time.

[william iorg]

There were a number of specialty loads for the .25-35 WCF, .25-36 Marlin and the .25 Remington. I have several in my cartridge collection which include light bullets, full metal jacket and spitzer bullets. There were hollow points and “pneumatic” bullets. Horace Kephart, Charles Askins Sr., Townsend Whelen, Paul Estey, J. R. Mattern and others wrote about the versatility of these fine little cartridges using the specialty loads and handloads.
Up into the 1960’s you could still buy 100-grain round nose bullets from Remington intended for the .25 Remington and these were well thought of by handloaders for small game and deer use. It is my belief the .25-35 is at its best with the 100-grain bullet and I use the Speer 100-grain JHP in my Winchester rifle.
Some of the most fun I have had with the single shot .25-35 rifles was trying to duplicate Townsend Whelen’s single shot load data with Greg Mushial from GMDR. Greg had a slow twist barrel and his rifle would shoot light bullets with amazing accuracy.
I reamed my 24” TC barrel to .25-35 AI and sent the reamer to Greg but his gunsmith had a problem and ruined his barrel. I was very disappointed. Greg has another slow twist barrel and we hope to try to finish our look when his schedule permits.

[Hobie]

I can't wait for the book.

IME, my gun needs radical rezeroing when switching from the standard 117 gr. at 2200 fps to the lighter bullets at higher velocity. With the 75 gr. bullets a different sight set-up is needed as they shoot very high in the gun sighted for the 117 gr. standard load.

I have a load using the 86 gr. .25-20 bullet that shoots, at 25 yards, to POA in my gun.

[kaschi]

I'm a 25-35 nut and would also be interested in knowing the answer to that one. Remington, I believe, still loads the
257 Roberts with 117 SPCL(at least they did until recently). Remington loaded that same 117 SPCL in the 25-35 until the 1960's or possibly even into the early 70's. That is one great deer pill! By the way, Casastahle, if you ever want too part with your 94 rifle in 25-35..... please let me know! Thanks!

[Slick13]

I'm a 25-35 nut and would also be interested in knowing the answer to that one. Remington, I believe, still loads the
257 Roberts with 117 SPCL(at least they did until recently). Remington loaded that same 117 SPCL in the 25-35 until the 1960's or possibly even into the early 70's. That is one great deer pill!

Is this the bullet that was in their .25-35 Core Lokt ammo? I bought a box of them at a gun show a year or two ago (green and yellow box, I assume from no later than the early 80s), and the brass would split when fired, so I only shot three or four rounds, then pulled the bullets out of the rest and saved them to reload at some point. Is the Remingont bullet better for deer than the 117 gr Hornady? I've only got 17 or so of the Remingtons for reloading, so can't do much load development.

As for the original question, I have no clue how Winchester came up with 117 gr for the .25-35.

~Michael

[william iorg]

Hobby, the .25-35 sure does change point of impact with bullet weight change.
The 1940 Shooters Bible lists several different loads for the .25-35.
Western had a 117-grain full metal jacketed load and a flat nose boat tail bullet.
Western had an Open Point Expanding (hollow point) boat tail bullet.
(My 1931 Western Cartridge Company pamphlet lists both flat nose and open point boattail bullet loads as available for the .25-35.)
Winchester offered the 117-grain JFN and the full metal jacket load.
Both Winchester and Western offered the 117-grain Silvertip load.
Remington offered the 117-grain flat nose bullet in full metal jacket, soft point and Core Lokt. They also offered the 87- and 117-grain bullet loads in hollow point.
Peters offered the 117-grain bullet in soft point and full metal jacket
Of course by 1940 these rifles were not considered as first choice equipment for big game hunting.
Francis Sell and general Vernon MeGee both wrote quite a bit on the .25-35. Both riflemen wrote with fondness for the light bullet loads but both settled for the 117-grain bullet as all around. Sell hunted “digger squirrels” with the 117-grain bullet in the off seasons.

[cshold]

Is this the bullet that was in their .25-35 Core Lokt ammo? I bought a box of them at a gun show a year or two ago (green and yellow box, I assume from no later than the early 80s), and the brass would split when fired, so I only shot three or four rounds, then pulled the bullets out of the rest and saved them to reload at some point. Is the Remingont bullet better for deer than the 117 gr Hornady? I've only got 17 or so of the Remingtons for reloading, so can't do much load development.

As for the original question, I have no clue how Winchester came up with 117 gr for the .25-35.

~Michael

I never shot any of the Remington brand 25-35’s.
The Winchester brand shoots fantastic in my rifle.
I have also shot the Sellior&Beloit brand with good results.
Though I did experience neck splits in about every other shot
with this brand.

[kaschi]

Slick13: The green and yellow boxes have been around since the late 70's I believe. I don't know when Remington stopped loading 25-35's. The Rem. boxes I have are green and white(red lettering?) 60's/early 70's era style, as well as some even earlier ones that are green and red (white lettering?). The earlier ones have the cardboard inner sleeves. The later ones have styrofoam sleeves. I'm just going by memory w/out digging them all out.

[Hobie]

I have also shot the Sellior&Beloit brand with good results. Though I did experience neck splits in about every other shot
with this brand.

They are notorious for splitting necks. However, if you can get through the first shooting and anneal the brass they work pretty well for a while.

[Adobe Walls]

Howdy.

I've often thought that the .25/35 had more merit than was ever discovered in print anywhere. It's just big enough for deer and just small enough to actually be a jack rabbit gun without overkill. Cast bullets are a real possibiliy in the proper rifle too. I've often thought that a Hi Wall actioned single shot in .25/35 would be the cat's meow for lightweight and verstility while being trapper length and still sporting a 20" barrel. I noticed a similarly styled carbine in the Shotgun News called an 1885 Trapper. The chambering options were just not my cup of tea, even though the .30/40 Krag was interesting, it's just not the right cartridge for the platform. I'd bet that an 1885 Trapper in .25/35 would sell like hotcakes regardless of the maker as long as quality was where it should be. Uberti are you listening?Adobe Walls

[william iorg]

Hobie,

Looking at my notes there were a number of short range loads available for the .25-35 using 87-grain JHP, JSP and LDRN bullets. Most all of the cases had deep cannelures rolled into the case neck at less than half length to keep the short bullets from setting back in the case neck.
I believe forum member .30 WCF has posted a picture of the .30-30 Short range cartridge on Leverguns and I have posted a picture of my example on the Beartooth forum. The .25-35 Short Range or Low Velocity cartridge has the same type of deep cannelure rolled into the neck.
I read somewhere the Short Range loads were dropped by Winchester before 1918.

There was also a 97-grain Pneumatic load.

The 100-grain OPE is the load I try to duplicate for my deer hunting load.

The Finns also had a 110-grain FMJ load. This I learned from the WCF book website. I have volume 1 and need volume 2 of this book. This is a very good set of books for the serious cartridge collector.

The reason for this post is I wanted to say in the 1920’s Mattern and Whelen loaded the 60- to 87-grain bullet weights to 2,800 fps. The 100-grain bullets were loaded to 2,550 fps. This is right about where I topped out velocity wise in the standard .25-35 Model 94AE carbine. I assume Mattern and Whelen were loading for the 26” rifle.
Greg and I both found we could receive exceptional accuracy with the 100-grain bullets at velocities below 1,000 fps using fast pistol powders. The 100-grain spitzers would sometimes remain in a jackrabbit I shot at 50-yards. When the bullet exits it ricocheted on our hard ground and this stopped my use of this load for small game critters.

[O.S.O.K.]

I don't own one. But I'd like to

One thing that I do know about the 25-35 Win is that like it's stablemate, the 30-30 Win, it benefits greatly (more than most all other cartridges) from an Akley Improved conversion.

Basically, it becomes the ballistic equivalent to the 250 Savage - or nipping on its heals.

No increase in operating pressures.

Thing is, I wouldn't want to ream out the chamber of an original 25-35 chambered rifle... but a replacement barrel would be in grave danger if I could find one...

Think 7-30 Waters only in .25 caliber.

[Hobie]

Slim,

I loaded the 75 gr. VMAX to 2800 fps. Now it is a neat load but you can't just switch back and forth between the standard load and this one. I think it shot 15" or so high at 50 yards compared to the 117 standard. Heck of a thing.

Those Finns have it going on for some things. I'd like to see some of their .25-35 FMJ loadings. The .30-30 85 gr. over 27 gr. IMR3031 is very interesting indeed. Works as advertised. Remington did the same with their .25 Remington advertising the 100 gr. FMJ as a goose load! Neat.

[marlinman93]

I always figured the caliber and bullet weight were just oneupmanship by Winchester! Since Marlin came out with the .25-36 Marlin first, with a 115 gr. bullet, Winchester just went a couple grs. heavier!

[lozen]

Hobie,



There was also a 97-grain Pneumatic load.

What's a Pneumatic load?

[cshold]

I'm a 25-35 nut and would also be interested in knowing the answer to that one. Remington, I believe, still loads the
257 Roberts with 117 SPCL(at least they did until recently). Remington loaded that same 117 SPCL in the 25-35 until the 1960's or possibly even into the early 70's. That is one great deer pill! By the way, Casastahle, if you ever want too part with your 94 rifle in 25-35..... please let me know! Thanks!

Not yet.

[Hobie]

Waited about 5 years to say no.

[ollogger]

I don't know why 117 gr. The 117 RN Hornady I have used in a 25-06 with great results
I do not have any problem switching back & forth between the 75 gr. speer & the 117 Hornady
bullets in the 25-35, I just have to remember little bullet in carbine, big bullet in Rifle



ollogger

[Old Savage]

They probably were going by some parameter other than weight and 117 is how it turned out.

[Rusty]

My brother in law has a .250 Savage Featherweight takedown that he has had for probably 60 years. We were talking about it one time and I went and did some reading on it. From what I remember Savage kept dropping their bullet weight until they could sell a cartridge that was over 3,000 FPS. His rifle is marked .250 Savage but I understand they later changed the name to .250-3000.

[cshold]

Waited about 5 years to say no.

I don't like to make hasty decisions

[Old Savage]

With a Win 94 made on 2005 I got 2230 fps with Win factory 117s and a 3 shot group of 7/8". With Hornady 117s and 30 gr of H380 it was 2325 with again a 7/8" three shot group. All groups will be at 100 yds with a 4x Leupold scope. Now to conform to the leadfree rules here I tried loading a the Barnes TSX 100 gr with 30 gr of the same H380 which yielded 2450 fps with 3 shots in 1". Those proved to be too long to cycle through the action and had to be fired single shot.

The same TSX load with a batch of older mixed primers produced a 3 1/2" group.

Interestingly the same TSX bullet would not print on a 21"x21" target at 50 yds in a Model 99 made in 1954. That rifle usually will do an inch or less with regular 100 gr bullets.

With the same rifle Jeff Quinn recorded getting 2471 fps with Hornady bullets and 27.5 gr of AA2460



The Imperial loads you see were apparently not worth recording and the 30-30 below is a sub 1" rifle with the load seen. This is the highest factory development for a plain jane IMO ------ WITH ----- the handy carry handle!

[Hobie]

Waited about 5 years to say no.

I don't like to make hasty decisions

I think I will note that you are a deliberating man...