Semi-OT: Sifting powders?

[bigbore442001]

Has anyone here ever used brass screens to sift powder for more uniform loads? I was thinking about using this method to sift H777 for my muzzleloaders. Any comments would be welcomed.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I have not sifted any of my powder but have read much on it. Seems that sifting black will give improvments in group size that can be measured when long strings of shots are compared. Not much but measurable. I dont think it is worth the trouble. Just pour the powder from the container and only use the top half or two thirds for serious work and the dregs for plinking. The fines should be mostly at the bottom of the container. At least that is what I have found to be the case. Me, I shoot it all and dont worry about it!

[Cliff]

I have done this with BP and have seen good results. Most BP has a bit of different sizes of powder in it. I think this is done because it is easier to package and still get some decent results. I lucked into a series of different sized shifting screens from very small to large. They were stackable, this allows you to stack up a number of them and then pour in the power and shake them until the powder settles down. They are brass screens. Don't know who has them but it is worth a try. I believe the Lyman "Black Powder" manual has an article of a match shooter doing this and it does make for more uniform loading and gives you some control over your loads. Of course some serious BP target shoots also use compression devices to ensure the powder is compressed the same each time. Consistancy for each loading of the rifle (gun) is most important thing for accuracy. I have watched some matches and they are good at repeating each and every step between shot and it does show in their scores. ATB

[Old Ironsights]

Ditto to Cliff.

I bought a big bag of bulk chinese "fireworks grade" 3F for somthing like $5/lb.

Dirty, crappy wildly deviatnt velocities.

I then sifted it using brass screens from McMaster Carr.

The sifted 3F shoots every bit as clean or cleaner than Swiss or Graf/Schutzen, with close SDs and only a slight reduction in Velocity from those premium powders.

Here's some data:

Here are approximate grain sizes in mm.:

2FG = 1.19—.59
3FG = .84—.29 / .0330in - .0114in
4FG = .42—.15 / .0165in - .0059in
5FG = .149

Mesh# Pass (inches) Microns mm
14 0.056 1400 1.422
28 0.028 700 .7112
60 0.0098 250 .24892
100 0.0059 150 .14986
200 0.0030 74 .0762
325 0.0017 44 .04318
400 0.0015 37 .0381

So for 3F hold you can use a standard 28 mesh and for 4F pass use a 60. For really fine 4F/5F use 100.

Here are the results of a 1lb New OEM can(s) sifting:

SWISS 11.3 oz of 3F and 4.0 oz of 4F & Fines. (11.3+4.0+1 = 16.3oz)

Goex Express 9.3 oz of 3F, 7.3 oz of 4F/ Fines. (9.3+7.3+1 = 17.5oz !!!)

Graf & Sons: 7.7 oz 3F, 8.0 oz 4F/Fines (7.7+8+1=16.7)

KIK 7.3 oz 3F, 9.0 oz 4F/Fines (7.3+9.0+1 = 17.3oz !!!)

Goex (Red can) 4.9 oz 3F and 10.7 oz 4F/Fines !!! (4.9+10.7+1 = 16.6oz)

Lidu Bulk: 3.25 oz 3F, 12.75 oz 4F/Fines (16oz) *nearly 80% 4F*

All brands shot better/cleaner after sifting. Even at 80% 4F Lidu 3F Bulk still cost less per pound after sifting than the rest.

IMO Sifting 777 would be a waste of time because it id not actually granulated the same way as BP and its burn rate really isn't as dependent on granulation size.

[Don McDowell]

Yes you can sift powder, but remember that the fines from that process are extremely volital, and a catastrophic explosion could be your end result.

Another thing to consider with sifting black, the manufacturers already sift the powder before shipping, and a certain amount of fines are included to maintain proper burn rate for the grade of powder.

[Old Ironsights]

Yes you can sift powder, but remember that the fines from that process are extremely volital, and a catastrophic explosion could be your end result.

Another thing to consider with sifting black, the manufacturers already sift the powder before shipping, and a certain amount of fines are included to maintain proper burn rate for the grade of powder.

Then why would the brands vary as much as they do?

If you sift on brass nowhere near a flame or spark there is NO issue with sifting BP. Contrary to popular belief BP will NOT ignite from static.

I'll have to dig up where I bought my commercial/BPCR screen setup.

[Hobie]

BP won't ignite from static but dust will...

[Old Ironsights]

BP won't ignite from static but dust will...

Proper small batch (1-3 lbs at a time) sifting methods create negligible (non-saturated/non-ignitable) amounts of dust...

Now.. if we want to talk Dust Initiators (on the Web) ... I'll personally decline.

But the things you can do with a small amount of C4 & a #10 can full of flour will boggle the mind...

[Don McDowell]

I suspect the varying degrees of "fines" from one brand to another depends on what the engineers for each outfit deems best.
As to the bp not going off from static thats true enough, but dust from fines is a different deal, and there will be dust , don't matter how you do it. Ever wonder why grain elevators and sugar factories blow up? It aint' the grain that caused it.
If you've ever pulled bpcr round and then commenced with trying to remove the cake of powder from inside the case, it don't take long to figure "sifting fines" is just another tail chasing excercise.

[Old Ironsights]

I suspect the varying degrees of "fines" from one brand to another depends on what the engineers for each outfit deems best.
As to the bp not going off from static thats true enough, but dust from fines is a different deal, and there will be dust , don't matter how you do it. Ever wonder why grain elevators and sugar factories blow up?

It's called dust saturation. And between using the method to blow things up for EOD training and working security in a Shacklee plant (read "one huge grain dust bomb") I think I'm pretty well aware of the concept.

If you've ever pulled bpcr round and then commenced with trying to remove the cake of powder from inside the case, it don't take long to figure "sifting fines" is just another tail chasing excercise.

In BPCR & velocity, maybe.

In cleanliness and general usability in a flintlock or C&B gun? Sifting makes a HUGE difference... as in one light spit swab every 5 shots to get a green tinge vs swabbing every shot and getting black grunge... from a flintlock.

I'll sift. As long as I do I will never need to buy Pan Prime or Pistol Powder.

[Don McDowell]

Well you do what you think you need to( only keep it a home for the safety of the rest of your fellow shooters) . I still just figure its a tail chasing excercise.
30 some odd years ago when I shot mostly flint lock competition, I didn't sift powder, nobody I knew sifted powder, and there were some awfully good scores fired. None of the bpcr shooters that so often show up in the winners circle do anything much about powder sifting.

[Old Ironsights]

Consistent granulation creates consistent burn rates and lower SDs, regardless of the powder used.

http://home.comcast.net/~jesse99/sieving.html

I bought my first screen from Cal Graf.

http://cal-graf.com/screen.html

I've since made my own.

You may have not fund it necessary, but it makes many aspects of schooting BP much easier/less dirty.

[Don McDowell]

bp shooting hard and dirt? Shucks most any 10 year old farm girl could do it 150 years ago, so it really can't be all that hard. Dirty I suppose is a relative term, but certainly not one I'ld relate particularly to bp shooting, there's several smokeless and falsy bp's I've piddled with that are more of a pain to clean up than real bp.

What do you do with all those nasty fines you screen from that horribly dirty junky powder all those powder companies are in business building?

[Old Ironsights]

As I've mentioned before, those Fines that are sifted out to reduce carbon fouling and decrease velocity SDs end up being used for Flash Powder or Pistol Powder.

My Flintlock shoots cleaner with sifted 3F than with most Subs... and I don't have to deal with the nasty 777 crud ring.

If you don't want to do it or think it's necessary, that's your perogitive. But IMO there are some very real advantages to shooting consistently grained, low Fines BP.