modern vs. 1800's black powder

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:39 pm

You wanna see "interesting"...

Try some "Brown" powder. i.e. powder where the wood gas has not been fully charred off the alder.

IT was a very short lived experiment that lasted in the blink of an eye between BP & Nitrocelluloce "white" powders.

Much more volitile and static sensitive than BP and almost as much Poop as White.

ohio hunter · Post by **ohio hunter** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 6:52 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:You wanna see "interesting"...

Try some "Brown" powder. i.e. powder where the wood gas has not been fully charred off the alder.

IT was a very short lived experiment that lasted in the blink of an eye between BP & Nitrocelluloce "white" powders.

Much more volitile and static sensitive than BP and almost as much Poop as White.

I knew I had read this somewhere at one time. Seems as though it was around end of civil war time.I read the page (for hours) of Ulrich Bretscher, very fascinating. Thanks OI.
J

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:29 pm

w30wcf wrote:I've been "out of touch" the past few days.

Don,
The only b.p. that I have been able to hit 1,300 f.p.s. with 40 gr. charges of FFG granulation in the .44-40 has been Swiss. Average velocity under Lyman's 427098 (210 grs.) was 1,340 f.p.s. Velocities of 40 grs. of Goex FFG and Schuetzen FFG ran in the neighboorhood of 1,250 f.p.s.

Why on earth are we trying to compare Swiss 2f with Goex 2f? If you run Goex 2f express up against the Swiss you might see some different results.Isn't Swiss smaller grains more similar to what we call 3f here?
With all due respect John, I think you'ld really ought to give Goex a try. Some of the 3f express, might really open your eyes.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:43 pm

OK, Goex this or that, Swiss, Elephant, and others ...... The last time I loaded some bp cartridges I used Goex 3F and lubed my bullets with the wrong stuff. YUCK what a mess.

Now, assuming I'm not so stupid as to repeat that mistake again, would you guys be able to tell me with any agreement, which brand, version and grain size black powder would be most likely to duplicate the powder used to load the 1880s black powder handgun cartridges? Or small rifle cartridges for that matter.

I really would like to know.

Joe

John Boy · Post by **John Boy** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:15 pm

Isn't Swiss smaller grains more similar to what we call 3f here?

Don - close your eyes ... OK, now look because you'll be surprised!

U.S. Swiss ......... Screen openings in mm ......... Rough conversion to U.S. screen sizes.

4 Fg #1................. 0.226 0.508 mm ........... 32 mesh 60 mesh
3 Fg #2 ......... ....... 0.508 0.870 mm ........... 18 mesh 32 mesh
2 Fg #3................. 0.670 1.36 mm ............. 12 mesh 24 mesh
1.5Fg #4 ............. 0.900 1.36 mm ........... 12 mesh 18 mesh
1Fg #5 ......... ........ 1.20 1.60 mm ............. 10 mesh 14 mesh

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 9:43 pm

Joe, in the 45 colt I've found 37 grs of Goex 3f to push 255 gr bullets (the remington bulks with a dab of bp lube smeared in the base) to run at 875 fps from a 5.5 in barreled new vaquero. That's close enough to the original Colt ballistics to suit me.
Also (and there some folks hate to hear this.) 35 rounds went down range thru the gun just as fast as I could load and shoot before it had any problems about binding up. The biggest problem was the gun was getting to hot to handle without gloves.

So Jb is ..#2 swiss the same as 3f? The way you have your chart laid out thats the way it looks to me.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:14 pm

Don,

Well, that's almost what I've got loaded from the boo boo batch. Only I got a full 40 grs of Goex 3F under the Remington 250gr bullet. I just used balloon head cases to do it. My boo boo was adding what ever bullet lube was in my Lube-A-Matic to the groves on the bullet. Ooopss...

And I'll tell you that what ever that velocity is, it's a thumper and a half out of a 7.5" Blackhawk. I'm gonna shoot some out of my lighter, smaller, 4 ¾" Cattleman next time I shoot outdoors. That aughta be fun.

Joe

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:25 pm

Joe when you shoot the 45,44wcf, and especially the 38wcf loaded as they were intended, its no wonder they all had such a great reputation. The bp loads shoot a bunch more stout than the candypuff factory stuff nowdays.

I shot the bp loads in 45 colt winchester-western cases I've been using for about 35 years .

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:44 pm

I hope the original poster will forgive this slight redirecting of the thread.

Don, here's a pic of me shooting that 40gr load from my OM BH. SteveB took it at the Leverguns/Sixgun get together several years ago. This was at full recoil.

There is definitely more felt recoil there than with 9.0grs Unique and a 250gr bullet.

Filthy, but fun.

Joe

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:51 pm

yes it is fun

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:48 pm

This is me shootin' my regular 45 Colt load of about 28grains of 3F under a 185grain pill.

I use SPG Lube and can shoot all day long with my SAAs without a problem. With modern cases I can get about 35-37 grains of either 2 or 3F under a 250 grain boolit. However, in competition, I've found that my loads have slightly less recoil, which allows a better recovery of my sight picture, yet gives adequate accuracy and power for the few knockdown targets, and few folks notice any difference in smoke or boom.

In fact, my records show that 28grains of 3F is approximately equal to my 6 grains of RedDot under the above bullet (850fps). I use Winchester WLP primers.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:34 am

Don McDowell wrote:
w30wcf wrote: Why on earth are we trying to compare Swiss 2f with Goex 2f?
Don, You asked, and I answered. Goex and Schuetzen were the other powders I had on hand so I also included that data as well.
Don McDowell wrote:
w30wcf wrote: With all due respect John, I think you'ld really ought to give Goex a try. Some of the 3f express, might really open your eyes.

Don, I much prefer 2F in the .44-40 since that was the type used by the factories in that historic cartridge. Per your suggestion, I will order some of the new Goex 2F Express powder in my next purchase of b.p. 40 grs. (traditionalist) of 3F might just stress my original '73 Winchester a bit too much!

Sincerely,
w30wcf

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:45 am

What did the factories use in the .45 Colt in the 1880s, 2F or 3F?

Joe

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:50 pm

Joe,
The U.M.C. factory .45 Colt cartridges I dissected contained 2F powder. Early resources I have indicate that 2F was typically used in the .32-20, .38-40 & .44-40. 1F was typically loaded in the .38-55, .45-70, etc.

Griff,
NEAT pic!

w30wcf

KWK · Post by **KWK** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:51 pm

J Miller wrote:I hope the original poster will forgive this slight redirecting of the thread.

No worries, it's all a good read, and really not far off the original topic.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:31 pm

Griff,
Your shooting load is basically a light bullet .45 Schofield equivelent load. The recoil your pic shows is about what I get with the Schofield loads I'm playing with.

W30WCF,
Thanks for the information.
I'm thinking ( I know, I shouldn't do that.) about buying another pound of that stinky stuff and trying the lever gun with balloon head case test again with better bullets, lube, and case preparation. I was never satisfied with our little test we ran over on Beartooth forum.

Joe

RugerOldArmy · Post by **RugerOldArmy** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 12:22 am

Over the last 30 years, I've heard this topic discussed many times, and from several perspectives. On the old 'Muzzle Loader Mailing List', the Mad Monk himself, and several folks that studied history weighed in. The most credible and among them noted variations in the ratio of saltpeter, sulphur, and charcoal in old documentation, and the difference in avaiability of specific species of Alder trees. The energy from blackpowder comes from the charcoal during combustion, and the species of tree used has a significant effect. I forget which species of Alder was considered the 'best', but I believe it was commonly called Black Alder, and as a resource, it was much more common in the old days, when the forests were much different than today. (When have you last seen a chestnut tree folks? Let alone in the size they used to exist.)

Variations in blackpowder in the days of old were more than just corning and grain size, and truly there was a proprietary nature to the variations in chemical components, source of components, charcoal preparation, and species of tree used.

At the time, blackpowder was available in many grades, from slower to faster (if you had the same grain size):

- Musket Powder
- Rifle Powder
- Sporting Powder (The fastest)

Many folks contributed, to a common study, various old and valuable tins/containers of older powder to a study, the specifics of which, I don't remember in much detail, but the charcoal was analyzed, as were burn rates. The key difference noted was the speed of the powders, which hinged primarily on the charcoal. (The ratios of Saltpeter, Charcoal, and Sulphur were very similar as I recall.) The gist of it was that there was a greater availability of 'Sporting Grade' powder. The burn rates of current powders (that was 10 years ago? Maybe 12?) were more consistent with Rifle Grade (Goex and Wano then) and Musket Grade (Elephant then).

It is my understanding that Swiss is much closer to a sporting grade powder than others available now. Note that they specifically target Alder charcoal.

Other factors came into play (purity of saltpeter, etc.), but charcoal seemed to be the most significant and common thread in the insights from those that had background.

Yet another opinion on the internet, but the one in which I have the most faith on in this matter.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:32 pm

Welcome to the forum! Lots of good info here.. Thanks for contributing!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed Feb 04, 2009 10:48 am

Aye, Welcome aboard, RugerOldArmy. Thanks for your input. Do you have a link that might still work to that study, or was this before Al Gore invented the internet?

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 8:48 am

RugerOldArmy,
Welcome to the board and thank you for you input. Today, the "Mad Monk" now writes under the name of "Dutch Bill" and posts regularly at
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?board=18.0

w30wcf

Fairshake · Post by **Fairshake** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 12:44 pm

ROA, Yes the mad monk is now Dutch Bill and as far as I'm concerned on of the most knowledgeable persons that I know on the subject of BP. I think it's the Blackthorn Alder for the bestcharcoal. It's harvestead when small as the larger size is not as good. Welcome to the site! You might want to check out the site as listed by w30wcf. Loads of info.Take Care

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:32 pm

J Miller wrote:Griff,
Your shooting load is basically a light bullet .45 Schofield equivelent load. The recoil your pic shows is about what I get with the Schofield loads I'm playing with.
Joe

That's not full recoil. That's on the way back down, as I've just caught the hammer to recock. But, it's probably not off by much. There's no smoke around the gun, it's had time to blow away and give a clear pic. But... other than bullet weight, that 28grains is the loading for the .45Army of the 1880s. What I don't know, is if they had any filler in them. I've never heard of anyone dissecting one and few books I have don't reference it.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Thu Feb 05, 2009 1:44 pm

Griff wrote:
J Miller wrote:Griff,
Your shooting load is basically a light bullet .45 Schofield equivelent load. The recoil your pic shows is about what I get with the Schofield loads I'm playing with.
Joe
That's not full recoil. That's on the way back down, as I've just caught the hammer to recock. But, it's probably not off by much. There's no smoke around the gun, it's had time to blow away and give a clear pic. But... other than bullet weight, that 28grains is the loading for the .45Army of the 1880s. What I don't know, is if they had any filler in them. I've never heard of anyone dissecting one and few books I have don't reference it.

Griff,

I don't have any b.p. to check this with, but when considering the seating depth of the 230gr bullet I have and the length of the Schofield case, I "doubt" they would need any filler. I think there will be some compression.

Joe

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 9:43 pm

Don McDowell
.....John, I think you'ld really ought to give Goex a try. Some of the 3f express, might really open your eyes.

Howdy Don,
I did pick up some 2F and 3F Express late last year and gave it a try in the .44-40. I loaded 20 rounds with each type using 40 grs. volume. Bullet used was the 427098 holding 1 gr. of SPG lube.

In my Marlin's 24" barrel, after 10 rounds, a hard ring of fouling started to develop from the muzzle back into the barrel about 1" or so. After 14 rounds the accuracy really started to "go south" in a hurry. After 20 rounds the hard ring of fouling extended back into the barrel 3-4".

By comparison, even after 20 rounds of Swiss, there is no ring of hard fouling in the barrel and the bullets are still grouping well.

Since Express is almost the same $$ as Swiss, I'll stick to Swiss in a repeating rifle. It has given me the best results by far.

w30wcf

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 10:32 pm

Well John we'll just have to leave it at your results are just exactly opposite of what I've found.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:12 pm

For my CAS cartridge guns, I've dropped using any of the standard Goex or the Express and have settled on using their "Cartridge" grade exclusively.

With the 1873, last year (around this time ISTR), I shot two days at two matches consecutively. The first day consisted of 6 stages, 10 rounds per stage. The second day was 12 stages of an average of 9 rounds per stage. I got to stage 10 of the second day before I had to clean my 1873. The lifter was just too gummed up to lower when the bolt was closed. This is much better performance than I got with regular 2F Goex or Express.

"Cartridge" is a granulation between 2f and 3f, and according to the info I got from Goex, has additional coatings that are supposed to give the results I got.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Mar 21, 2010 11:21 pm

Cartridge was the precursor to Express. I get a little more velocity with Express, but there's precious little difference in accuracy between the 2.
I've also had some decent results in 45 colt and 38-40 with Grafs (Schuetzen) 2f, but certainly no better than plain jane goex 3f.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:08 am

Don, what do you use for lube? I wonder if some of the difference in results isn't due to different lubes?

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:29 am

Don McDowell wrote:Well John we'll just have to leave it at your results are just exactly opposite of what I've found.

Don,
Might just be the PA weather(?).

Anyway, it looks like Goex Express would run aok in a 20" barrel with the 427098. That last 4 inches is the "killer".

The last target I fired @ 100 yards with Swiss and the 427098 in the .44-40 Marlin 24" was very good. The first round from a clean barrel was a bit to the right of the group. The other 9 rounds grouped under 2".

On the same day, 10 shot groups with Goex Express ran 6+"......

w30wcf

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:24 am

30WCF,
I use SPG for ALL my BP shootin, and have been shooting the RCBS 45-CAV-225 mold. It carries enough lube to keep the fouling soft thru the 24-¼" barrel of my '73. John, I think if you were to try some Cartridge, you're likely to find that it does the job in pistol cartridges VERY well. Given the amount I shoot anymore, it probably wouldn't break the bank if I only used Swiss, but... when I did shoot a match every weekend, savin' a few dollars per pound added up. I'm planning on being home the 1st week in April and doing some shooting. I still have to test some paper patched 330grainers in the .40-90SBN. Given the short chamber in my rifle, I've had to shorten the patch considerably... I'm hopin' they still shoot good. My best friend just got a chronograph, so I'll be able to see what difference that 20 grains less bullet makes. (The 350s grease groove boolits average 1576 with 90 grains of regular old 2F; looking forward to seein' what the Swiss 1-½ will do).

Don,
I must admit, I don't know which came out first, Cartridge or Express. But, Express is available in 3 granulations, while Cartridge is just that, Cartridge, two different animals entirely. but your drop in velocity with Cartridge over Express is entirely consistent with what I've found in my .40-90SBN, not entirely a bad thing. But... I'm still having consistency issues. Sure wish my ES and SD numbers were closer together. With an ES almost twice the SD, it's no wonder my group size is atrocious! I haven't tried the tissue paper over the primer, yet... That will be next after the Swiss. Not wanting to change more than one thing at a time is both time consuming and tedious, but necessary if you're going to tell what effect each change has.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:43 pm

Kirk I quit spg in favor of Sagebrush alox. Spg always seems to leave a rather heavy type fouling, Sagebrush leaves a moister fouling, and costs much much less @ 9$ per half pound tub., and even leaves lube build up on the crown of 32 inch barrels, and the mess it leaves on the end of Buttuglies 28 inch tube is almost unbelievable. Clean up between 10-14 round relays is generally 1dry, 1 wet, 2dry, patches.
www.sageoutfitters.com

Griff, Bill Bagwell told me that Cartridge was the first powder that Goex sent for testing that he could fire 10 rounds and still put a dry patch down the barrel. It preceeded Express by several years, they claim Express to be a faster powder than regular goex, I have not taken the time to do my own velocity comparisons with it.I do know that in the 40-65 3f express really tightened up the groups over regular 3f. As a general rule I go thru about a case of Cartridge a year, but current financial conditions dont allow that..... Kurt A, uses cartridge in his 44-90's and big 50, and accounts his fouling out and having troubles in the last match he fired in the season to inadvertently shooting all his Cartridge loaded rounds in practice, and that only left him the Swiss for the match. I don't believe he'll buy any more Swiss any time soon, but ya never know.

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Mon Mar 22, 2010 8:10 pm

At one time I tested all the modern and antique powders i could get ahold of. If I remember right the worst powder was Meteor from the UK and the best was old Curtis and Harvey, bearing in mind that some of the powders were at that time over 90 years old. If you have ever made powder you know the most important part of the process is the milling. The damp powder is put in large wooden drums and rolled to make grains from the cake and to impart a finish on the power grains. The longer you mill the better the powder, but this is also the most dangerous part. The old mills were made with fall apart walls so WHEN they blew up you just put everyting back together. In modern powders they mix graphite in so they don't have to mill as long this polishes the grains and acts as a retardant, but contributes to fouling. Ned Roberts talks about firing his 73 winchester 125 shot with the last shot as accurate as the first. He was using reloads wiht Curtis and Harvey powder that shot MOIST for him and he talks about how Dupont would cake up. According to him it shot dryer. Even then some powders were better. From my tests I think we will never see a modern B/P that will work as well as the best of the old powders that were uncoated, soaked in urine and than milled for days. But some of our modern powders are actually better than say Meteor or Kings lower grades. Remember back in 1880 to 1920 there were B/P like the smokless today a favorite brand for every purpose. Check out all the B/P 's offered in the 1911 Alpha catalog, and by then B/P was fast becoming obsolete. Heck when I was a kid the local hardware store still had flasks od Dupont and Kings in stock and I started shooting with screw lid Dupont at $2 a flask, caps were size 9-12 and musket and we mostly shot original guns. Now if we can get Swiss and Schutzen both we figure we are doing good and that at $19 a can!

greenacres · Post by **greenacres** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:39 am

That and people back then knew that consistent granulation is the key to clean shooting and would re-corn their BP if necessary.
I've brought it up before and done a bunch of testing to prove it...
The cheap Chinese (Lidu) 3F I buy shoots cleaner than Swiss, if with a marginally lower velocity, because I sift out all of the Larges & Fines and get a pure, consistent 3F granulation.

Where can I find more detailed information about how to do that?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:41 am

Don McDowell wrote:Kirk I quit spg in favor of Sagebrush alox.

I'll have to try some of that. I just replenished my stockpile of SPG, but a tub of that Sagebrush sounds like something I'd like to try.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:13 am

Greenacres,

That is not necessarily true in all instances, though it may help in some situations. I have never gotten any better accuracy results sifting powder, but I only tried it in the .44-40 and .45 Colt. Sifting the b.p. through different screen
sizes will allow one to render the powder close to a more consistant granulation.

w30wcf

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:17 am

KCSO wrote: .........Ned Roberts talks about firing his 73 winchester 125 shot with the last shot as accurate as the first. He was using reloads with Curtis and Harvey powder that shot MOIST for him and he talks about how Dupont would cake up......

........which is true for all the non moist burning powders today over an extended run in a 24" barrel with no cleaning/blowtubing.

w30wcf

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:20 am

Ned Roberts also used a good bit of ink telling about how even with the same bullets and powder some rifles would foul badly and give poor accuracy with one lube, but would be fine with another recipe,yet an identicle rifle would like what rifle #1 didn't.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Mar 24, 2010 7:53 pm

Guys, this has been a thoroughly enjoyable thread! I still have no desire to shoot or load Black in my Mauser (sorry Don!

) but being that I enjoy handloading this has been great reading!

-Tutt

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Mar 26, 2010 5:34 pm

greenacres wrote:
That and people back then knew that consistent granulation is the key to clean shooting and would re-corn their BP if necessary.
I've brought it up before and done a bunch of testing to prove it...
The cheap Chinese (Lidu) 3F I buy shoots cleaner than Swiss, if with a marginally lower velocity, because I sift out all of the Larges & Fines and get a pure, consistent 3F granulation.
Where can I find more detailed information about how to do that?

I did a test on this very subjuct/topic a few years ago.

By sifting my (cheap chinese) powder through a brass screen to get consistent granulation I got SDs and cleanliess similar to Premium Swiss... and a whole bunch of 4F to 7F fines to use as Flash/Prime powder...

John Boy · Post by **John Boy** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:47 pm

If I remember right the worst powder was Meteor from the UK and the best was old Curtis and Harvey,

KCSO, read these 2 threads that are on the ASSRA forum:
http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB. ... 504876/1#1

Background: Austin Powder Co imported Curtis's and Harvey's powder and packaged it under their label with the powder identified as mis-spelled "Curtis & Harvey". The 5# can of Austin was made (packaged) in December 1955
The Austin Powder Company plant in Ohio blew up in 1968 - OOB, Out of Business!

As I said, I am 100% convinced today the Meteor powder produced by Nobel Industries in Ardeer, Scotland was either left over C&H inventory or the same formulation as C&H based on the close relationship of the tests I performed for each powder:
* Sieve ratios (Austin's C&H Rifle powder proved to be the same as Meteor FFg)
* Density
* Velocity - SD's
* 'Moist' fouling
* Foul ratio to powder charge shot
* Oven test examination of the foul including the size of the charcoal in the foul

Nobel purchased Curtis's & Harvey in 1967 or 1969. What made C&H powder so good was their processing - the water quality in Ardeer and the native Alder wood for the charcoal that was only in Ardeer.

Might add - I shoot the Meteor powder that I have (lot vintage 1973) long range to 1000 yds and the same FFg grades/charges/bullet between Swiss and Meteor are only ~50 fps less at the muzzle ... example Meteor 1197 vs Swiss 1253 fps. And the SD's for this example were almost the same

So, based on all the tests I performed, where C&H and Meteor closely compared to each other, plus knowing Meteor was produced at the Ardeer, Scotland facility ... I disagree with your statement that the Meteor powder you 'tested' was the worst. If you have specific test results such as the ones I did to support your statement, please post the specifics

John Boy · Post by **John Boy** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:22 pm

Follow up on Meteor Powder ... here's what the 1973 lot cans looks like -

Notes ...
* C-I-L Ammunition Inc (Canadian Industries Limited) which was a subsidiary of Nobel Industries in Great Britain.
* Plattsburg, NY - that was an office location of DuPont who at the time was out of the BP business resulting from a Restraint of Trade citation by the Federal government. DuPont was the 'real' importer and their salesmen were selling Meteor!

Here's a can of Curtis's and Harvey's powder, manufactured by Imperial Chemical Industries Limited after Nobel Industries bought out C&H -

And here's the same C&H powder made by Nobel with a Hodgdon label on the can -

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Wed Mar 07, 2012 3:43 am

w30wcf wrote:
Don McDowell wrote:
w30wcf wrote: Why on earth are we trying to compare Swiss 2f with Goex 2f?
Don, You asked, and I answered. Goex and Schuetzen were the other powders I had on hand so I also included that data as well.
Don McDowell wrote:
w30wcf wrote: With all due respect John, I think you'ld really ought to give Goex a try. Some of the 3f express, might really open your eyes.

Don, I much prefer 2F in the .44-40 since that was the type used by the factories in that historic cartridge. Per your suggestion, I will order some of the new Goex 2F Express powder in my next purchase of b.p. 40 grs. (traditionalist) of 3F might just stress my original '73 Winchester a bit too much!

Sincerely,
w30wcf

I load 35 grains goex 2f in my ruger vaqueros and uberti 19 inch barrel 66 for cas. I have found that 40 grains is dirty and 35 seals well and 'shoots clean. Clean enough I can shoot 30 rounds in each handgun and 60 rounds in the rifle without running a patch down the barrel.

I cronoed the loads and got 862 fps on the vaqueros with 4 5/8 bbls and 1230 fps out of the 19 inch carbine. This was with 200 grain bullets.