Finally 40-72--Now The Research Begins--Help

[Kansas Ed]

Firstly, I didn't go to the Tulsa show for Centerfires this year. My PLAN was to pick up a .22 and some odds and ends. Of course 1895 Winchesters are always at the back of my mind. Especially since I found TWO rather nice 1895 rifles in .303 Brit. which are difficult to find. But the best laid plans are always dashed to hell at a gun show of that magnitude. Later in the afternoon I ran across the 40-72 that I've fruitlessly searched after for many years. Condition was Patina, but no alterations. Bore good with a couple of areas of pitting, and the guy was willing to trade into a bolt gun that I'd brought. So I bring it home, clean it up last night, and now I'm into the research end of it.

Soooo. If anyone has ANY information on the 40-72 data, I would appreciate it. Such as any loads from obscure sources. I have Snooky's starting loads, but any others are needed. The Madis book didn't give me twist data for the rifle, so I'm out on that count for now. The other item is bullets. Not a whole lot out there for bullets, but slugging the bore puts it at .400 with Groove at .408 Factory bullet weight was either 300 or 330 depending on the source you use. I'm going to try and use the 265 gr GC bullets we use for the 40-82, but don't know if they are heavy enough for what the rifle wants.

Anyone have any ideas or obscure info out there....

Ed

BTW: Had a nice chat with Abilene while we were there. Hey Ab...did you find any treasures??

[hondo1892]

Venturino has a little data in his lever gun book. It list a load for 5744 from 21.0 to 23.0 grs. and bullets cast from NEI molds of 325 and 330grs. and some BP loads. Hope this may help some.

[Gun Smith]

We've talked about this before. I'd love to find a 40/72 for my collection.

[bsaride]

Ken Waters says:

40-72 Winchester: Form cases from .405 Winchester brass. Leave cases full length (2.58 inches) and size them full length in a .40-72 WCF die. Turn down rims to .519 inch and size cast bullets .408 inch or .001 inch larger than groove diameter. This cartridge used roundnose bullets. Some rifles may not require turning down case rims.

330gr Lyman 406150 RN 39.0gr IMR-3031
330gr Lyman 406150 RN 42.0gr H4895

Nothing in my PO Ackley or Lyman 43 & 44. Lyman Handbook of cast bullets shows the 406150 as cast .408, #43 top punch and that 406150 is the regular 40-72 Winchester bullet.

Thats the best I can do.

[Don McDowell]

The RCBS CSA series bullets in 300, 350 and 400 gr weight can be sized to work in that rifle just about right. They'll also feed thru the magazine pretty good. Montana Bullet Works sells them.

[deerwhacker444]

Pictures,...I need Pictures..!

[KirkD]

Congratulations on that 40-72. That, and the 38-72 with a rapid taper barrel really get me wanting one bad. My only sources for loads have already been mentioned. If it were me developing a load, here would be my approach:

1. Find out the original black powder ballistics: (330 grain bullet at 1,321 fps, 1896 Winchester Catalogue)

2. Next, I'd get a custom mould made for a 330 grain bullet, and about 3 thou oversize to the slugged groove diameter using wheel weights, then size down to about 1 or 2 thou oversize to groove.

3. For load development, my objective would be to achieve the original BP ballistics with a powder slower than 2400, which would guarantee that my peak pressures were lower than the original BP peak pressure. I'd probably start with IMR 4198. Since Venturino is a very conservative loader, and since he used 23 grains of 5744, and since IMR 4198 is slower than 5744, I'd start with 23 grains of IMR 4198 and chronograph that load. I would then slowly increase the load until I reached the neighborhood of 1,321 fps. If I had sooty cases, then my pressure is too low, in which case I'd go to a faster powder like 5744.

[Kansas Ed]

Thanks to everyone...I'm not familiar with the Venturino book...has it gotta name?? Kirk, I was on Mtn. Moulds website last night debating the custom mould. My problem to keep me from ordering, is that they only seem to offer designs for the Gator Gas Checks, and as of yet, I have not been able to find a list of what Gator offers. I'm leaning toward the GC bullet because there are areas of pitting here and there, and some appear to be a little deep rather than just dark. I'm looking to get factory equivalent loads out of it which are the 330 gr at 1400-ish. This shouldn't be hard to accomplish, as we worked up 265 gr bullets in the 38-72's to almost 2100 fps without too much trouble, before backing them down to about 1600. I intend to keep my eyes open for the Lyman 406150 (Thanks BSARIDE) but nothing out there at the moment that I can find. I will say that if Ken Waters was using 405 brass without thinning the rims, then he had a headspace issue on his rifle. But that is the beauty of the 40-72 and 38-72...if there is headspace problems, you can always form from 405 and partially compensate

So, does anyone know of a supplier for the .410 GC (41 Mag) that I can use?

Ed

[hondo1892]

Shooting Lever uns of the Old West by M. Venturino

[Abilene]

Hey Kansas Ed,

I found the '03 Springfield stocks I was lookin' for, but they were all to steep for me. My parts gun will look just fine w/ a Boyds stock on it.
That ammo I thought I had is formed from 30-40 Krag brass, may not work. Am goin' to run to the house and dig up those slugs that I think are 40 cal. I also have a case forming book by Nonte that had specs and data, I'll run it off for you tomorrow, and I'll try to get it in the mail this week. The cases Nonte used to form the 40-72 were 9.3 by 74R I believe.
I have a weakness for those old '95s too, It was cool to get to handle that one. I'm gonna go mike those slugs right now, I'll post it in the mournin'. Abilene

[Thunder50]

If you go to the Castboolit.gunloads.com site, sometimes there are 41 mag gas checks FS. You can go to the swappin & sellin part and sometimes a guy named "Blammer" tries to keep some "gator checks" in stock, maybe he might have some. If not, you could put your name on a list with him and I think he will contact you when he gets some. Do you need a few boolits to try in you '95?. I have a custom MM for my 405 that throws a 325gr GC boolit, and I have a custom Lee mould that throws a 273gr SWC that I size to .410" to use in my 40-65 Pedersoli sharps that shoots real well, and size to .413'" to try in my 405 Ruger (it casts .413").

Wished I could have made the show. Maybe the Fall show.

[Mike D.]

You may want to remove the forend wood on your '95 and look at the proof and inspector's marks on the bottom flat of the barrel. Your gun quite possibly could have a nickel steel barrel, even though it isn't marked on the top left side, below the rear sight. A NS barreled .40-72 is capable of far more potent loads than shown in Mike's book. If the bottom of your barrel is marked M.N.S., or I.N.S., it has the ultimate steel available at the time, and rated at 100,000 PSI.

[Kansas Ed]

T-50, I would like to try a few of those 325gr bullets. I'm willing to pay for them. And if they work well, I may want to duplicate your mould, if you still have the specs. I signed up for the Castboolit site, and put my wish list in on those GC's.

Mike, my proofs are "VP"...which is OK by me, cause I do know the meat gathering capability of a big 40 Cal bullet at 1400fps. Besides, I have the 405 if I need to push harder.

Ed

[Abilene]

Kansas Ed,

Those slugs are a cast plain base round nose that appears to of the bore riding type, with three grease grooves. The one I measured was .408 with the old plastic calipers. It weighed 327 grains and was 1.060inches long. I had 50 of them, you're welcom to 'em if you want 'em.
The box of ammo I had turned out to be 30-40 krag cases, annealed and fireformed to 40-70. they would be a little short, but as we know that works in 38-55 and 32-40 made from 30-30 cases.
Here is some quick data fron Nonte's "The Home guide to cartridge convesions". CCI-primer,300gr lead bullet,4895 powder, 48 grains at 1700 fps, or 35 grains of 4895.
Rim dia.-----.521 Bullet wt.-----330
Head dia.----.460 muzzle vel.---1380fps
rim thickness-.062 powder type----Black
Neck dia.----.429 Powder charge---72 grains
Case length---2.567 Headstamp-------WRA 40/72

Form this case from 9.3x72R in the following manner: Expand neck to hold .407 bullets;Trim to 2.567" length; Fireform; Use .407 bullets.

E-mail me if you want the cases and the slugs. Hope this helps. I'll run off the pages for 30-40,40-72 and 405 win so you can compare them. Abilene

[Bear 45/70]

Look at Beartooth for heavy .410 bullets. Scroll down to 41 caliber.

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/bulletselect/index.htm