jaguar

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:44 am

Anybody here know anything about jaguar behaviour?
hunting traits , patterns, etc.?

fordwannabe · Post by **fordwannabe** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:22 am

they do better with high octane!!(sorry had to do it)

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:23 am

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:29 am

fordwannabe wrote:they do better with high octane!!(sorry had to do it)

And they leak oil all over your garage floor and driveway...

But, Cereally, folks...

They aren't that much different from other big cats, such as cougars, but may tend to be more secretive, if that's possible, and are somewhat harder to see because of their camo hunting 'clothes...' They seem to prefer hiding/hunting stands, above ground level, such as in large trees, if available. In jaguar country, it pays to look up now and then...

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:46 am

Buck,
I'm trying to figure out his/her hunting plan, it seems to me that it has a large hunting area, and it seems to loop through it on a lunar cycle.
Is that reasonable?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:51 am

Dont know much about hunting them,but this is one cat I would definetly NOT hunt alone.From everything I have read.Also back in the 1980s at Watkins Glen race track(Can-Am Race)a guy had a pet Jaguar with him in his HUGE Motorhome.I think he kept it doped up but we got to pet it.It was HUGE.MUCH different than mountain lion.Read below paying close attention to wording.GOOD LUCK!

The third largest felid, Jaguar is an incredible animal. The most active and vigorous of the big cats, it is designed for tremendous strength and agility. It is a versatile cat and perhaps the most 'complete' predator in family felidae. A resident only of the Americas, the reclusive Jaguar holds a high place in local folklore and big cat analyzes owing to his prolific predation. Despite the outside resemblance with the leopard, the Jaguar is more muscular and compact - with weight ranging from 275-350 lbs.With powerful limbs, rounded skull and a robust physique, the Jaguar is a study in strength. Pound for pound it is one of the strongest land mammals. Its jaw strength goes unrivaled amongst all big cats.At stalking, Jaguar has no peer. Designed for stealth and a powerful pounce, Jaguar is considered as the best ambush hunter in all of animal kingdom. Its remarkably silent approach towards prey is simply incredible to watch. The other outstanding feature is its terrific hunting prowess in water.Jaguars of relatively open plains have a lighter coloration to assist in their camouflage. These animals are also considerably bigger than their jungle counterparts since they have to tackle larger prey animals.(LIKE YOU

)

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:59 am

mescalero1 wrote:Buck,
I'm trying to figure out his/her hunting plan, it seems to me that it has a large hunting area, and it seems to loop through it on a lunar cycle.
Is that reasonable?

The "lunar cycle" thing might be mostly coincidental, but if you've figured out his "system" it will help.

That said, I think it wise to heed madman4570's information. Those cats are rarely seen, unless they want to be -- which is hyper-seldom...

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:02 pm

If they are like the cougars in the west, they do have a large area that they hunt. When we hunted them in Idaho, it seemed like they would travel through an area on about a weekly basis. They also seem to like to hunt from an elevated position if possible. I have seen many deer kills on old logging roads and trails along a mountain side that have a high bank on one side. I always assumed they would sit on the high side of the bank and wait for a deer to walk past, or ambush them there, making it easy to pounce on the back of their prey. Never gave them a lot of thought untill we hunted with a snow on the ground and found their tracks following my tracks from earlier in the day. Kind of gives ya a shiver.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:06 pm

I have never seen him, I am piecing this together from "kills" reported.
Others have seen "something".
That's why the info on the game cam was so intriging to me, I know where the area is, thought I would put out a game cam.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:09 pm

I would want someone like Joe(86er)with me! I am telling you, the one I saw(pet it) looked size wise like a huge African female lion!
Caution is the word for this Cat.If it gets to you, you will have NO CHANCE!

BwanaDave · Post by **BwanaDave** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:21 pm

I think a lot of what you are looking for is in Borderland Jaguars Tigres de la Frontera by David E. Brown and Carlos A. Lopez Gonzalez 2001 University of Utah Press.

Here kitty kitty,

Dave

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 12:34 pm

They are solitary, stealth/ambush hunters. Their prey never sees them coming until they are mid-flight headed for the kill. They clamp down their big canines into the victim's throat and hang on until suffication or bleeding takes it's toll. They will also rake the side of the prey with their nind feet/claws to subdue and bring-on shock.

That's all I know about their behavior.

I would hunt them with dogs myself - taking advantage of the dog's keen sense of smell and hearing to put the cat into escape mode - to your advantage.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:10 pm

Check this out from Animal behavior wildlife expert: Nice way to go!

The jaguar prefers a killing method unique amongst cats : on big prey it pierces directly through the temporal bones of the scull between the ears of the prey with its canine teeth , piercing the brain

. Did someone say 3.5" 10 gauge double barrel 000 buck?

Also wear a nice Bell cycle helmet w/neckbrace???

My ATV Bell helmet is in Realtree camo!

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:53 pm

Mescal, the spotted cats are twice as nervous as lions find a kill and determine if its still good they wont eat carrion unless starving the cat will go to the nearest water to drink to digest the meat then head to shaded cover to nap if the closest water has cover he will be there. in the summer 2/3 days is about max on the kill, depends on what they got, if the kill is in cover the cat will be in visual of it napping and watching will feed at their leisure if in the open at night. danny

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:57 pm

Makes sense Danny,
There is an old stock tank in a natural low place the holds water most of the time, and there is some cover.
I'll check the tank for track.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:11 pm

You really ought to tke Madman4570's advice and take a hunting buddy with you on your jaguar forays. Those big buggers have a reputation for man-killing if crowded. They even occasionally turn into real man-eaters. So take a friend or grow two more pairs of eyes.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:28 pm

I am grateful for everyones concern for me, Thank You.
When I was younger, there were any number of Mescalero I would be glad to have at my side, but they are all gone.
I do not know any white men with enough woodscraft knowledge to be of any help.

Kapincrunch · Post by **Kapincrunch** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:41 pm

Shooting a jag (if there are still any out there) could get you into a bunch of trouble.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:47 pm

Point well taken Mescy!

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:47 pm

As long as things remain as they are, I have no intention of shooting it.
I seek only to confirm wherther or not it is a jaguar.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:57 pm

Ya,The game cam viewing the area surrounding the stock tank! Give er a go!

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 3:58 pm

The cats will stay in the same area if they have a good food source cover and water and havent been pushed. It takes the right kind of bullet to take one out if you are body shooting them, Ive seen a 44 mag with 240 gr corelocks (5) just blow up on a quartering shoulder shot and then 1 CP 180 WFN lead bullet from a 357 drop the same animal same shot, course a 22 in the head kills them every time. danny

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:17 pm

Wish I had a couple of weeks to spare and I'd go with ya. I'm not Mescalero, but I'am a Lake/Salish descendant and I have tracked before. I track man, but spore is spore when you know what you're looking for. And, I second a second. Those cats are big, quiet, extremely fast and could look at a lowly human as fare.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:23 pm

Thank you Kim,
be honored to have you.
I may have no choice in the matter but to go it alone, lets hope I have enough left in me.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:40 pm

ALONE??????

BwanaDave · Post by **BwanaDave** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:51 pm

Frank Hibbon's Hunting American Lions has a chapter about hunting them.

Dave

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 6:58 pm

Thanks Dave.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:33 pm

Can't give you much useful info. I believe their habits are different according to local terrain. I grew up in the Amazon drainage and we had a lot of them, but that's far different terrain than your area. One screamed one night while some friends were walking home from a party. The guy's girlfriend wet herself and climbed a tree - which happened to be the one the cat was in.

All he had was a snubby 22 with CBC LR solids in it. Things got sorted out and all parties departed the immediate surroundings with no damage done to anyone except the dampening of undergarments as before mentioned. An old german I knew used to hunt them a lot. He swore by a 4" to 6" 22 revolver loaded with CCI Minimag solids. Of course, he was running them up trees with dogs and then head shooting them. They can and will take full grown cattle when chance permits. There was a fellow down in the swamp country of SW Brazil who hunted them with a spear. I don't recall his name at the moment. A friend played "light tag" with one one night. He'd jacklighted a deer from his hammock hung high in a fruit tree in the jungle when he heard something and switched the light on again. Everytime he'd get the light on it the big cat would jump to the shadows. This went on until his light gave out. Then thins got nerve wracking until the cat picked up the deer and carried it off. No, he didn't try tracking it down at daybreak.

They are lovely animals indeed and at the top of the food chain in their territory.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:53 pm

His name was Sasha Siemel.
He hunted them with a boar spear and dogs, when the dogs had him stopped, Mr Siemel would advance with his spear, looking the jag in the eye, ( do not do this ) and receive the charge and fury of the jag on the spear.
He had a set!

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:54 pm

Do you want to hunt one with a spear?

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:56 pm

Well,
I have to admit, the thought has crossed my mind.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:06 pm

mescalero1, I have some Navaho friends up around Ganado, Az that might could help you. I found a copy of an article on 1892 Winchesters from June 1986,it tells about Sasha Siemel the South American professional hunter with a picture of him and a jaguar he killed with a bayonet fitted 92 44-40 trapper carbine. It might be the one AmBracol mentioned. from the pictue they are a heavy bodied animal.Just watch your back trail son.
My grandson in Tucson might suit you.

Pm me if you want to.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:10 pm

I am open to any suggestions.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:18 pm

mescalero1 wrote:I am open to any suggestions.

Rig a 20mm to the game cam?

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:30 pm

Reasonable suggestions

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:42 am

Hobie wrote:Do you want to hunt one with a spear?

mescalero1 wrote:Well,
I have to admit, the thought has crossed my mind.

Your a better man than me Mescy! God love ya!

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:14 am

mescalero1 wrote:Reasonable suggestions

OK, .50BMG. Those aren't classified as Destructive Devices...

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:46 am

There is the melanistic Jaguar too. They are black even though you can see the spots in certain light. They are tough at night.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:57 am

I believe that this is the case here.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:30 am

The plan is to obtain photographic evidence, and convince Fish & Game to relocate.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:13 am

mescalero1 wrote:The plan is to obtain photographic evidence, and convince Fish & Game to relocate.

About the best the Fishy Cops could do in that situation would be to "relocate" themselves... Hate to think of those rank amateurs out there tracking 'el Tigre' on his own turf.

Folks like that tend to get in their own way, often with disasterous results.. Happy endings don't always go with stories of that sort.

SFRanger7GP · Post by **SFRanger7GP** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:32 am

The best books I have read on Jaguar hunting is Cavanaugh's "The Jungle Hunter" and Almeida's "Jaguar Hunting in the Mato Grasso and Bolivia". I have hunted these areas extensively and have seen several "endangered" jaguars.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:44 am

Jaguar have yellow eyes and like I said can be black. Most or all of the black cats seen in Texas are not panthers or Mountain lions but melanistic Jaguars. I have not seen one, but all the ranchers that I have talked to always say they had yellow eyes. Most were seen at a tank watering late in the evening. They don't like people or trucks.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:46 am

Once I get the pictures, we will know, but I have a feeling that this is what we have in this case.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:47 am

I think we can definitivly assume he/she is an illeagal alien.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:19 pm

Before you know it, they'll be workin' their way North, takin' on jobs that the wolves and mountain lions 'just won't do...'

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:21 pm

Mescalero, Quite a bit about Jaguars in the SouthWest on the net. I have seen photos taken in Arizona in the past but I hadn't heard about this one!

Good luck

Arizona jaguar euthanized after kidney failure
03/03/2009 08:33:41
Macho B, a wild jaguar was collared in Arizona just 2 weeks before his death.
Macho B dies after a 16 year career as Arizona's wild jaguar
March 2009. Just 2 weeks after collaring a jaguar in Arizona, the Arizona Game and Fish Department (AZGFD) have had to euthanize the cat after it was discovered to be in severe and unrecoverable kidney failure.

The decision was made in consultations between the Arizona Game and Fish Department, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Phoenix Zoo.

While early data indicated that the animal was doing well in the days following the capture and collaring, careful monitoring of recent data revealed a decreased level of activity over the weekend that warranted further investigation.

The jaguar was initially taken to the Phoenix Zoo after a team from the department recaptured it. Zoo veterinarians conducted lab work and physical exams to evaluate the animal and discover the source of the cat's deteriorating condition.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:34 pm

Here is a good photo of a melanistic Jaguar.

BwanaDave · Post by **BwanaDave** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:28 pm

I just received a copy of Onza! The Hunt for a Legendary Cat. Although the book is not specifically on the kitties you are looking for there appears to be a fair amount of discussion on them. There appears to be quite a lot on the Lee brothers too. I have a thing about cats if you haven't noticed. I have been lucky as I have seen five mt lions without using dogs. Unfortunately I have either not had a gun or a tag each time. The last one was close, I was driving down a gravel road and my son says, "what was that?" I stop the jeep and jump out. I look over the embankment and there is a young female lion 35' down. We look at each other for a minute or so and she starts to walk away. She stops a couple of times and looks back then continues on her way. They are amazing animals. Most people who see them talk about their long tails but I am always impressed by their powerful paws.

Dave

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:12 pm

If this jag is up there, and I know there is a young mountain lion about 4 miles from the site, I am confused by two large cats that close together.
That's why I wondered about thier range, could this jag be looping through the mountain lions territory on a luner cycle?