Major OT: Ships helm question
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- J Miller
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Major OT: Ships helm question
On any big ship you have the helm, basically a big huge steering wheel on the bridge.
How is this steering wheel connected to the rudder hundreds of feet away?
Joe
How is this steering wheel connected to the rudder hundreds of feet away?
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Rope...
Seriously, here's ship's helm on the Fram (an arctic exploration vessel). I imagine they connect by wire (computer command) today.
http://www.sethwhite.org/images/fram/helm.jpg
Seriously, here's ship's helm on the Fram (an arctic exploration vessel). I imagine they connect by wire (computer command) today.
http://www.sethwhite.org/images/fram/helm.jpg
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
- J Miller
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Hobie,
That's a sailing ship, right? Looks like it. And correct me if I'm wrong the wheel is connected to the rudder with chains. That makes sense.
However the helm on a sailing ship is at the rear over the rudder. On older big ships that are not set up for the wire you mentioned, how did they do that.
Like for instance the Battleship Missouri????
Joe
That's a sailing ship, right? Looks like it. And correct me if I'm wrong the wheel is connected to the rudder with chains. That makes sense.
However the helm on a sailing ship is at the rear over the rudder. On older big ships that are not set up for the wire you mentioned, how did they do that.
Like for instance the Battleship Missouri????
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
I believe "Helm" is a position rather than a thing. When "at the helm" you have control of the ship. You may be controlling the ship with a tiller or wheel while at the helm. Hydraulics, cables, and today electrical control (fly by wire) are what are used to "connect" the helm to the rudder. Old ships had either direct control (tiller) or a system of lines and pulleys; block and tackle.
Mike
Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit...
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- Griff
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
The "helm" is the "ship's wheel". El samo, samo. Helm as you say, also has different connotations depending on how you're using it.
Boats have tillers, basically a pole attached to the rudder, unweildy and too low leverage to effectively steer a ship with that system... ships have wheels... well, so do some boats, but that's another lesson.
Boats have tillers, basically a pole attached to the rudder, unweildy and too low leverage to effectively steer a ship with that system... ships have wheels... well, so do some boats, but that's another lesson.
Griff,
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SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Yep, it depends on the size of the vessel just how they do it.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Joy sticks on new stuff
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
I saw the steering gear on the Queen Mary many moons ago... Where the rudder shaft ( at least 3 ft in diameter) comes through the hull, two massive opposing steam cylinder shafts are connected to a bell crank that fits around the rudder shaft...I’m not positive if the QM had live steam at the wheel that feeds back to the cylinders but I do know that other ships employed the system.. Wish I could find my pics of it... hth
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
WIL TERRY
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Joe,J Miller wrote:
Like for instance the Battleship Missouri????
Joe
I imagine that those IOWA-class ships, and other, similar vessels, used elctro-hydraulic/ electro-mechanical contols (like servos & rams), along with propper gearing to control their direction.
My friend, Raymond Williams, served aboard the Iowa, BB-61. In 1989 & 1990, the main 16" guns were still guided by gyroscopes & mechanical computers from the 1940s. The serial numbers on the Iowa's equipment were below "10" (the Mk 6 Stable Element, pictured, below, was #004, I believe).To whit:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armament_o ... battleship
The function of the Mk 6 Stable Element (pictured) in this fire control system is the same as the function of the Mk 41 Stable Vertical in the main battery system above. It is a vertical seeking gyroscope that supplies the system with a stable up direction on a rolling and pitching ship. In surface mode, it replaces the director’s elevation signal.[11] It also has the surface mode firing keys.
By the way, how much black powder do you think this is (U.S.S. Iowa)(very large pictures)?:The Mark 1A Fire Control Computer (pictured) was an electro-mechanical analog ballistic computer. Its function was to automatically aim the guns so that a fired projectile would collide with the target.[11] This is the same function as the main battery’s Mk 8 Rangekeeper above except that some of the targets the Mark 1A had to deal with also moved in elevation — and much faster. For a surface target, the Secondary Battery’s Fire Control problem is the same as the Main Battery’s with the same type inputs and outputs. The major difference between the two computers is their ballistics calculations. The amount of gun elevation needed to project a 5in shell nine nautical miles (17 km) is very different than the elevation needed to project a 16in shell the same distance. The ballistics calculations in these mechanical analog computers were performed by things like differential gears, levers, and small rods riding on the surface of a three dimensional cams. These mechanical adders, multipliers, and table lookup devices were hand made at the factory, and were buried deep in the workings of the computer. It was not possible to change a computer’s ballistics at sea until the advent of fast digital computers. The anti-aircraft fire control problem was more complicated because it had the additional requirement of tracking the target in elevation and making target predictions in three dimensions. The outputs of the Mk 1A were the same (gun bearing and elevation), except fuze time was added. The fuze time was needed because the ideal of directly hitting the fast moving aircraft with the projectile was impractical. With fuze time set into the shell, it was hoped that it would explode near enough to the target to destroy it with the shock wave and shrapnel. Towards the end of World War II, the invention of the VT proximity fuze eliminated the need to use the fuze time calculation and its possible error. This greatly increased the odds of destroying an air target.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... r_bags.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... r_bags.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... g_tray.jpg
...and what beautiful, black powder breechloaders!:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -61%29.jpg
Shawn
"That's right, Billy, I'm good with it. I hit what I shoot at, and I'm fast!"-Lucas McCain, c1882.
Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
From what I have seen on the various military ships there is two helm controls. Depending on the age most have some sort of wheel as mentioned, newer one use a joy stick or roller ball. They all are linked to the internal system of electric-mechanical systems to control the rudder. If the bridge is hit the auxillary rudder control takes over and located near to the rudder machinary. The one I saw was a little wheel about 6 inches in diameter, which actually controls the rudder itself. The big ships, aircraft carriers, battleships and such have super big heavy rudders and need a lot of power to be moved. As mentioned hydraulic and electric system provides the power. Of course in a really bad situation I suppose they could probably grab a hundered or so enlisted men and have them move the rudder by hand
- Old Time Hunter
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Same way your newer cars operate with their foot feeds (Oops, gas peddle for the minions), you have foot throttle sensor or wheel position sensor that transmits the position to a receiver that tells the actuator which movement and by how much to move the rudder. Then it is instantly reported back to the operator position through the J1939 CANbus system. Berger Yachts uses the same electric over hydraulic wireless interaction system as Boeing uses on their 787. No wires! No cables! No chains! Hope that makes you feel comfortable.
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Absolutly not,
what do really think happened to that Air France flight from Rio to Paris.
what do really think happened to that Air France flight from Rio to Paris.
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
GOSH I love this forum
"Any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen"
Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper
Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Quote " Absolutly not,
what do really think happened to that Air France flight from Rio to Paris."
What did happen ???????
what do really think happened to that Air France flight from Rio to Paris."
What did happen ???????
"Knowledge without understanding is a dangerous thing. For a little knowledge entices us to walk its path, a bit more provides the foundation on which we take our stand, and a sufficient amount can erect a wall of knowledge around us, trapping us in our own ignorance."
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Joe,
I talked to Raymond. He said that the Iowa used electro-hydraulics for rudder control. The helm, or ship's wheel, moves a synchro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchro), which, in turn, moves another synchro that is closer to the rudder. This second synchro acctuates very large hydraulics that act on the steering mechanism that is connected to the rudder. Turning the Iowa's wheel, from full-right to full-left, as fast as you can, causes the rudder to complete the movement in about 4 seconds. The Iowa is capable of a full-right, or full-left turn at 33 knots. That's changing the direction of a 58,000 ton ship at 37.9757218 mph!
Another electrical control device, used on some other ships, is the Amplidyne:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplidyne
Raymond also worked for Bier Radio. He installed positioning systems on modern oilfield boats. These systems often used two GPS navigation systems, coupled with electro-mechanical gyroscopes. The gryos are suspened by a conducting/ insulating liquid, inside of a sphere, and use mercury as an electrical conductor. Some of the helms on these boats are nothing more than a small potentiometer (like a volume control) that the wheel rotates. This signal is tied into all sorts of computerized rudder & motor controls. Propeller & waterjet motors are used to change direction, to dock, and for station-keeping.
I hope this rounds out my earlier answer.
Shawn
I talked to Raymond. He said that the Iowa used electro-hydraulics for rudder control. The helm, or ship's wheel, moves a synchro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchro), which, in turn, moves another synchro that is closer to the rudder. This second synchro acctuates very large hydraulics that act on the steering mechanism that is connected to the rudder. Turning the Iowa's wheel, from full-right to full-left, as fast as you can, causes the rudder to complete the movement in about 4 seconds. The Iowa is capable of a full-right, or full-left turn at 33 knots. That's changing the direction of a 58,000 ton ship at 37.9757218 mph!
Another electrical control device, used on some other ships, is the Amplidyne:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplidyne
Raymond also worked for Bier Radio. He installed positioning systems on modern oilfield boats. These systems often used two GPS navigation systems, coupled with electro-mechanical gyroscopes. The gryos are suspened by a conducting/ insulating liquid, inside of a sphere, and use mercury as an electrical conductor. Some of the helms on these boats are nothing more than a small potentiometer (like a volume control) that the wheel rotates. This signal is tied into all sorts of computerized rudder & motor controls. Propeller & waterjet motors are used to change direction, to dock, and for station-keeping.
I hope this rounds out my earlier answer.
Shawn
"That's right, Billy, I'm good with it. I hit what I shoot at, and I'm fast!"-Lucas McCain, c1882.
- J Miller
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Shawn,
Thanks that does make it clearer.
I didn't think the wheel was connected directly but I couldn't image how they did it.
Joe
Thanks that does make it clearer.
I didn't think the wheel was connected directly but I couldn't image how they did it.
Joe
***Be sneaky, get closer, bust the cap on him when you can put the ball where it counts .***
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
In the same class as the Iowa battleship is the BB-63 Missouri .. Here is a couple of photos of her electro-hydraulic steering gear to get a better idea of things..
http://navsource.org/archives/01/015910a.jpg
http://navsource.org/archives/01/015910b.jpg
More details here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/57z.htm
OT on the OT.. Reading about the aftermath at Pearl Harbor and the immediate operations on righting the battleships and battle damage is fun..
Here's a couple of pix of the Oklahoma getting rolled back over http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... h63915.jpg
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... 410534.jpg
Link to the page: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... 410534.jpg
http://navsource.org/archives/01/015910a.jpg
http://navsource.org/archives/01/015910b.jpg
More details here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/57z.htm
OT on the OT.. Reading about the aftermath at Pearl Harbor and the immediate operations on righting the battleships and battle damage is fun..
Here's a couple of pix of the Oklahoma getting rolled back over http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... h63915.jpg
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... 410534.jpg
Link to the page: http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/imag ... 410534.jpg
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
WIL TERRY
- Griff
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
BTW, I believe those are 30# bags of BP. So, that's be a 90# charge.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Maybe Grizz will chime in....he's a ship's captain.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First
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- Griff
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Re: Major OT: Ships helm question
Well... I was wrong. If that is a 16" Mk7 gun breech.
Per NY Times from April 23, 1989: "...The propellant consists of small cylindrical grains of smokeless powder with an extremely high burning rate. A maximum charge consists of six silk bags, each filled with 110 pounds of propellant..."
Per NY Times from April 23, 1989: "...The propellant consists of small cylindrical grains of smokeless powder with an extremely high burning rate. A maximum charge consists of six silk bags, each filled with 110 pounds of propellant..."
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!