Blackpowder .22 LR

[Hobie]

John Kort does it again.

[2ndovc]

Cool!

jb

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Cool. I'd love to make some of those up.

[Doc Hudson]

neat!

But I would not wnt to have to clean my Golden Model 39-A with hot soapy water the way I do my Renegade and Navy Colt.

[J Miller]

Very interesting article.

But .....

Why didn't he post it here? This IS the Leverguns.com forum. He WAS shooting these home made BP cartridges from a lever gun.

I think we been slighted. Or did he get p.o.'d by the goings on here and leave us too.

Joe

[rjohns94]

kewl, but why? can you buy primed .22lr cases?

[Terry Murbach]

HMMMM....I MAY BE BE GETTING SERIOUSLY DRAIN BAMAGED IN MY DOTAGE BUT WHAT IN THE FLYING HELL DID/DOES THAT PROVE OR DISPROVE ??
ONE OF THE GREAT LEAPS FORWARD IN THE SHOOTING SPORTS WAS WHEN THEY FINALLY--FINALLY !!!---CAME UP WITH AN APPROPRIATE SMOKELESS PROPELLENT AND NON-CORROSIVE PRIMING [ STAYNFREE...STAYNLESS.. KLEANBORE.. ETC ETC... ] FOR THE 22 RIMFIRE CARTRIDGES. THIS WAS TRULY A "GREAT LEAP FORWARD" TO USE THE OLD COMMUNIST/STALIN/MAO TERMINOLOGY CORRECTLY, PERHAPS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT.
AND SO IT GOES...

[Hobie]

Very interesting article.

But .....

Why didn't he post it here? This IS the Leverguns.com forum. He WAS shooting these home made BP cartridges from a lever gun.

I think we been slighted. Or did he get p.o.'d by the goings on here and leave us too.

Joe

Don't read too much into it. John posts a bunch of different places. Likely he just thought the BP cartridge shooters on the Shiloh site would get a kick out of it.

[Hobie]

HMMMM....I MAY BE BE GETTING SERIOUSLY DRAIN BAMAGED IN MY DOTAGE BUT WHAT IN THE FLYING HELL DID/DOES THAT PROVE OR DISPROVE ??
ONE OF THE GREAT LEAPS FORWARD IN THE SHOOTING SPORTS WAS WHEN THEY FINALLY--FINALLY !!!---CAME UP WITH AN APPROPRIATE SMOKELESS PROPELLENT AND NON-CORROSIVE PRIMING [ STAYNFREE...STAYNLESS.. KLEANBORE.. ETC ETC... ] FOR THE 22 RIMFIRE CARTRIDGES. THIS WAS TRULY A "GREAT LEAP FORWARD" TO USE THE OLD COMMUNIST/STALIN/MAO TERMINOLOGY CORRECTLY, PERHAPS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY NOW THAT I THINK ABOUT IT.
AND SO IT GOES...

Terry, I think it is just about trying it for oneself. I for one am glad he did it and so I won't feel the need...

[OI phones in...]

kewl, but why? can you buy primed .22lr cases?

Dunno... but swaged heeled .22 bullets 30gr(?) are readily available from NAA for use in the "companion" C&B mini revolver...

[Modoc ED]

You can take a fired .22 LR case and re-prime it yourself. If you can get it, you can mix red phosphorus and white phosphorus together (BE DANGED CAREFUL) moisten the mixture with alcohol put a dab in the base of the case and swilrl/roll the case back and forth between your thumb and forefinger so as to disperse the mixture out to the rim and set it aside to dry. Failing the phosphorus mixture you can just scrape the white phosphorus from a strike anywhere match head and prep it as above. It'll work pretty good. Some guys have even used a blackpowder mixture for the primer.

[Cliff]

I seem to remember an article in the "American Rifleman" magazine some years back concerning the 22LR. Back in the 1930's everyone was questing for the most accuracy for the 22LR. The manufacturers offered, primed unloaded brass, and a wide selection of bullets for possible use. I remember some were full wadcutter designs. Interesting reading and I could be wrong about it being in the"A.R." magazine. Good Luck.

[Ben_Rumson]

I don't think his experiment was aiming to prove or disprove anything...More like get a sense of what BP 22 caliber shooting was like, and how long decent accuracy held without having to stop and clean...

[Pete44ru]

I can only say this, about that: I'm with Terry !

I've seen/owned too many nice old .22's from the late 1800's that had bores that looked like sewer pipes from shooting corrosive primed BP ammo all those years before non-corrosive priming/etc.

.

[Hobie]

I can only say this, about that: I'm with Terry !

I've seen/owned too many nice old .22's from the late 1800's that had bores that looked like sewer pipes from shooting corrosive primed BP ammo all those years before non-corrosive priming/etc.

.

That's why I'm glad I won't feel the need! I shoot BP but I just don't think I want to do so in so small a bore particularly in such a valuable to me rifle.

[Winnetou]

Many thanks for posting this. I have hoped in vain that cartridge manufacturers would again offer black powder .22RF cartridges, or components for reloading. Many years ago, I carefully disassembled .22 cartridges, replaced the powder, and re-seated the original bullets. They shot well, and I have long meant to do the same thing on a larger scale, using proper dies.

There are a number of reasons why black powder .22RF cartridges would be desirable. Some shooters simply prefer black to smokeless powder. Quite a number of vintage .22 rifles and pistols can not handle the pressure of even standard velocity smokeless loads, and while many of them can shoot the CB shorts and longs, these are not always an ideal solution (for example, CB cartridges normally carry Short bullets—for which the twist of Long Rifle barrels is not perfectly suited).

Before the war, Winchester EZXS match cartridges, loaded with the DuPont Lesmok black powder variant, were considered to produce superb accuracy.

Another thing that would be welcomed—by some—upon a return to the market would be copper .22RF cases, not only for the sake of nostalgia but also for the benefit of old guns made for them, which often lack the hammer energy for reliable ignition with harder modern cases.

The many late Victorian and Edwardian small-bore rifles with ruined bores are the consequence not of black powder, but of corrosive priming. When smokeless powder was introduced, it was found that the non-corrosive mercuric priming previously used embrittled the brass upon combustion, by amalgamation of mercury with the brass. This effect had not occurred to the same degree when black powder was the propellant. Manufacturers switched to a corrosive, potassium chlorate based priming. By then, shooters were accustomed to using smokeless powder solvents, such as Hoppes No. 9, but the corrosive primer residue required a water-based solvent. This is what led to the destruction of many bores, though some shooters eventually understood what was happening and took care to clean bores with water-based solvents, such as Winchester Crystal Cleaner. Current priming is non-corrosive, so shooting black powder .22RF to-day would avoid the problem entirely. Black powder residue is hygroscopic and will eventually harm a bore if not cleaned out after shooting, but the effect is far less acute than that of corrosive priming residue. Personally, I find cleaning a rifle is easier and faster after black powder than after smokeless powder. But one does have to clean!

[mklwhite]

When I was a kid we use to make 22 BP cartridges all the time. Especially "shot shell" types. I'd get my hands on firecrackers and start raiding the powder out of them. You don't need to use any priming material. It will go off by itself if you give it a good wack. Of course at first I use to put cutout paper caps in the bottom of the cartridge, but some experimenting later proved it unnecessary. I still have my little powder measure spoon I made and the loading block. We would shoot it out of homemade guns at rats in grandpa's barn mostly. A ton of fun. Those were the days....

[w30wcf]

John Kort does it again.

Hobie, thank you for posting the link.

Very interesting article.
But .....
Why didn't he post it here? This IS the Leverguns.com forum. He WAS shooting these home made BP cartridges from a lever gun. I think we been slighted. Or did he get p.o.'d by the goings on here and leave us too.
Joe

Joe, nope, not slighted in the least. Since it is b.p., I posted the information on a forum dealing strictly with b.p. where there is a considerable amount of interest (over 1,000 visits on the topic there). I did not post it here because I did not think there would be much interest in b.p. at all (See Terry's comment). Here's another b.p. forum that I had posted similar information on earlier this year: http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index ... pic=6080.0
In the future, I will at least post a link as Hobie kindly did (See the link I added in the .32 thread).

I don't think his experiment was aiming to prove or disprove anything...More like get a sense of what BP 22 caliber shooting was like, and how long decent accuracy held without having to stop and clean...

Spot on! Thank you.

Winnetou,
Welcome to the forum. Glad you posted. Thank you for your input. Yes indeed, the corrosive priming that was used in a certain time period ruined many bores....moreso than b.p. did. I have left b.p. fouling in my bore for 2 weeks in a test and it cleaned up fine...no rust whatsoever. (Don't try that with Pyrodex!!).

mklwhite,
Neat! Thank you.
w30wcf

[Doc Hudson]

I happen to love blackpowder! Makes no difference if it is a front-loader or breech-loader cartridges.

I just don't cotton to the idea of blackpowder cleanup on a .22.

Great article on an interesting experiment though

[w30wcf]

Doc,
Easy to clean...I just shoot several smokeless .22's....cleaning done!

w30wcf

[Terry Murbach]

THIS HAS TURNED INTO A VERY INTERESTING TOPIC OF DISCUSSION !!!

[Hobie]

John Kort does it again.

Very interesting article.
But .....
Why didn't he post it here? This IS the Leverguns.com forum. He WAS shooting these home made BP cartridges from a lever gun. I think we been slighted. Or did he get p.o.'d by the goings on here and leave us too.
Joe

Joe, nope, not slighted in the least. Since it is b.p., I posted the information on a forum dealing strictly with b.p. where there is a considerable amount of interest (over 1,000 visits on the topic there). I did not post it here because I did not think there would be much interest in b.p. at all (See Terry's comment). Here's another b.p. forum that I had posted similar information on earlier this year: http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index ... pic=6080.0
In the future, I will at least post a link as Hobie kindly did (See the link I added in the .32 thread).

I don't think his experiment was aiming to prove or disprove anything...More like get a sense of what BP 22 caliber shooting was like, and how long decent accuracy held without having to stop and clean...

Spot on! Thank you.

Winnetou,
Welcome to the forum. Glad you posted. Thank you for your input. Yes indeed, the corrosive priming that was used in a certain time period ruined many bores....moreso than b.p. did. I have left b.p. fouling in my bore for 2 weeks in a test and it cleaned up fine...no rust whatsoever. (Don't try that with Pyrodex!!).

mklwhite,
Neat! Thank you.
w30wcf

John, what's with the red-face ? I thought it was a great and interesting experiment. I would never, well probably never, try it myself but it is INTERESTING. My comment "John Kort does it again" was a compliment because you have such interesting things to contribute. I always learn something!

[w30wcf]

Hobie,
I guess I was a little bit flattered.....no smilies for that so I used the embarrased smilie. I have since updated my original post. Thank you for your interest and promotion.

w30wcf

[Winnetou]

Thanks for the welcome, w30wcf.

Another way to obtain black powder .22 cartridges occurs to me. Winchester have long made .22 Short Blanks loaded with black powder:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=484287

Note that these are not star crimped, but are closed with a card wad and a roll crimp. One could first load a bullet into the chamber, followed by a blank, Shützen-style. In theory, this method could be refined to produce superb accuracy.

It might also be possible to simply glue a suitable bullet to the card wad, and instantly have a complete black powder .22 cartridge. A gas-check base design would be ideal, as in w30wcf’s method. Note that while the blank is a Short case, it can hold more powder than an ordinary Short cartridge, since the card wad is much thinner than a bullet heel.

[w30wcf]

Winnetou,
Great idea! Coupled with the 30 gr. .22 bullets that "OI phones" referenced (Thank you, OI phones..) that would be mighty interesting. I think I may even have some .22 black powder blanks........I'll have to check.....

w30wcf

[Hobie]

John,

Let us know about your experience. I just know you're going to try it!

[Winnetou]

I know that I have a box of these Winchester black powder blanks here, somewhere. I’ll have to have a look. I don’t believe that the .22 calibre bullets provided by NAA are heeled. But they should work readily for “Shützen-style” loading, and possibly even for the “glue on” concept (which may or may not degrade accuracy, perhaps depending upon how it is done). The 30-grain weight is not ideal for the 1:16 standard .22LR twist, unless velocity is moderate (which is why CB cartridges can be quite accurate in such barrels).

I think it would be a good idea to open one of these blanks first, to have a look at the grain size of the powder, although even very fine powder should not be dangerous in a modern or otherwise stout rifle. A message on the Shiloh Forum discussion linked at the top of this thread mentions that the powder found inside factory black powder .22RF cartridges was “finer than FFFF” and “more like dust”.

I should note that unless blank cartridges are known to be loaded with black powder, they should never be used to propel projectiles. Smokeless blanks are often loaded with special powder that would yield excessive pressure in the presence of a bullet or shot. Furthermore, while very fine black powder is likely suitable for a cartridge like the .22RF, it might be dangerous in a larger calibre, depending upon the gun involved.

I think I’ll have to try one of those NAA mini percussion revolvers. It is too bad that the short cylinder version does not have a longer barrel, like the original Freedom Arms model, which more closely resembled the tiny .22 revolvers of the late 19th century.

[w30wcf]

Found 2 boxes of blanks. I believe the older "Extra Loud" contains smokeless blank powder. The Winchester circa 1980-1992 black powder blank box leaves no doubt. Ahh...$2.00....those days are long gone.......

.....I should note that unless blank cartridges are known to be loaded with black powder, they should never be used to propel projectiles. Smokeless blanks are often loaded with special powder that would yield excessive pressure in the presence of a bullet or shot. Furthermore, while very fine black powder is likely suitable for a cartridge like the .22RF, it might be dangerous in a larger calibre, depending upon the gun involved......

A very good point! I'll stick with the ones labeled black powder.

w30wcf

[AmBraCol]

This post is quite interesting. I'd no idea anyone else ever played with reloading or handloading 22's. When I was a kid we used to reload 22's. Two CBC Berdan primers would be crimped from the sides to loosen up the compound and then the contents dumped in. What ever brand of FFFg the local store guy had on hand would be dipped in on top of the powdered primer compound and then a 3T shot would be loaded in on top of the powder, compressing it and holding everything in place. We used slip joint pliers to seat the ball. No lube. We didn't shoot a bunch of them, but did it to see if we could. The one I remember was the time we loaded a fired shot shell (of the crimped style) with a full load of firecracker powder and a 3T ball. Fired at around 15 meters it went clear through a Brazilian hardwood board that was well seasoned. (The type of wood you have to drill before using nails) and it drilled straight through. It also blew the head off the case, caused my cousin's ears to ring for days and I believe it was the last round we loaded. Most of them I fired in an old double barreled, side by side Rossi derringer. The one my cousin shot - mentioned above - was fired in an old Winchester 67 single shot. We'd get up to three reloads per shell by rotating the shell 180 degrees then 90 and then 180 between loadings. This would allow the pin to hit a place where the rim would have enough primer powder in it to cause it to fire.

[w30wcf]

Paul,
Thank you for sharing your experiences. Glad that you didn't have a mishap when you were squezzing those Berdan primers!

w30wcf

[Winnetou]

W30wcf,

I found my box of Winchester black powder .22RF blanks. It looks identical to the one you have pictured on the right, and is almost full. Midway do not show stock arriving until April of next year, and those predictions are often optimistic. I think I will order some of those bullets from NAA.

[w30wcf]

Winnetou,
I think I will try the short b.p. blanks first with a 40 gr. cast bullet.......

Here's a 1920's ad for semi smokeless 22's.



w30wcf

[marlinman93]

Well I like smokeless powders, and they surely make life easier, but the real stuff is still fun to shoot, and still puts a smile on my face every time I shoot it! Shooting shouldn't be so serious that we can't enjoy a little blackpowder! Don't get your undies in a wad over a simple fun post.

[Winnetou]

Those are lovely boxes. Too bad we don’t get anything like them now, despite what would likely be a considerable market welcome—and for the cartridges, too.

Those prices are amazing.

........pause........

I just had a look at the Ward’s Collectibles web-site. What a list, of .22RF boxes alone!

https://www.wardscollectibles.com/viewc ... category=2

Some of these boxes were full or partly filled. And some, like the full boxes of Winchester EZXS, seemed reasonable at $16 and $25. Still, it is disheartening to see the prices fetched by some of these delightful bits of history.

[w30wcf]

Yes indeed. WOW! 790 .22 Boxes on that auction! Most of those are neat boxes remnisant of times gone by.............

I did get one of the lower priced EZXS "Lesmok" boxes ($21) to add to my Palma .22 Lesmok box.


The most expensive .22 box I have seen sold at Wards a couple of years ago....$5,600!!!!
It was only made for a few years back around 1915-1920... very rare .....was sold only with a special Winchester Junior Rifle Corps. rifle in the same box with the rifle.


w30wcf