OT - Gun Designs that never made it

[oic0]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoffTmg9bxU
I find these gyrojets very cool. At 20 yards they reach their peak velocity and break the speed of sound. Had you guys ever seen these before. The accuracy was pretty terrible at long ranges though and at short ranges it hadn't built up enough speed to be deadly yet.


I also think these would be really cool if merged with a volcano design. A little charge to kick it out of the barrel at a higher velocity to help accuracy and short range damage. Would still be caseless too. Doubt you could fit enough charge to get it over the speed of sound before leaving the barrel though, which is one cause of the bad accuracy (disruptions when breaking the speed of sound outside the barrel).

[Cliff]

These were declared a destructive device due to the diameter or the rocket projectile, plus they cost a bunch to make the projectile, was made of drawn and spun hardened steel. I think the inventor was wanting to get some type of goverment contract. This was when things were getting hot in Vietnam. The Navy was interested in it for developing underwater weapons, something like rocket propelled arrows for their underwater teams. They did do good at that. I remember all the hoopla when they were first introduced to the public. Some were claimed to be armor piercing (about 20MM size). All kinds of claims were made but many did not prove out. ATB

[jhrosier]

I got a chance to shoot a couple of rounds through a Gyrojet.
They were not very impressive for accuracy and the rockets were very expensive.
They were still burning for a fair bit and would most certainly cause fires.

Other guns to consider for the "never made it" title would be the Dardick revolver, which fired a nearly triangular cartridge called the "tround" and the Daisy caseless cartridge guns.

Jack

[jeepnik]

You know, when I read the title, the Gyrojet is the first thing that came to mind. Then the arms for "caseless" ammo. Hard to believe tht with today's engineering marvels we don't have caseless, self steering handgun rounds. Just put the dot on the target, and pull the trigger. The round would track and destroy the target. Oh well, I'll go back to reading Buck Rodgers now.

[2ndovc]

How about the Webley-Fosbery? An automatic .455 revolver.
I've had my hands on one once. Beautiful things! Just didn't catch on and far to expensive.

jb

[Yodar]

Hi oic0,

I used to work for the company back in the late 60's. The Gyrojet was a novelty. That is the best you could say about it. The 13mm version ran afoul of the BATF rules and had to be re-designed as a 12mm. The BATF still wasn't satisfied because the bore was smooth so they considered a sawed-off something or other. Problem solved by scratching a shallow groove in the bore. This kept the BATF happy; typical government bureaucrats.

The accuracy was absolutely terrible due to the "smooth" bore and the uneven burning characteristics of the propellant. It wouldn't get up to speed until several yards down range. You could put your hand over the muzzle and stop the round. You would have a burned hand, of course.

The company was called M&B Associates. It was located on Bollinger Canyon Road in San Ramon,CA. "M" and "B" stood for Mainhardt and Beil, the founders of the company. I am not sure of the spelling of their names. I never met Mr. Beil but I knew Mr. Mainhardt. The less said about him the better.

The technology did have a useful application in the design of emergency signalling devices used by downed airmen.

We experimented with a 40mm round fired from a bazooka-like weapon. It didn't go any where either.

[jeepnik]

How about the Webley-Fosbery? An automatic .455 revolver.
I've had my hands on one once. Beautiful things! Just didn't catch on and far to expensive.

jb

Saw one in the gun shop the other day. $7000. Wonder what they cost new adjusted to today's dollars. But it was in pretty good shape.

[oic0]

Hi oic0,

I used to work for the company back in the late 60's. The Gyrojet was a novelty. That is the best you could say about it. The 13mm version ran afoul of the BATF rules and had to be re-designed as a 12mm. The BATF still wasn't satisfied because the bore was smooth so they considered a sawed-off something or other. Problem solved by scratching a shallow groove in the bore. This kept the BATF happy; typical government bureaucrats.

The accuracy was absolutely terrible due to the "smooth" bore and the uneven burning characteristics of the propellant. It wouldn't get up to speed until several yards down range. You could put your hand over the muzzle and stop the round. You would have a burned hand, of course.

The company was called M&B Associates. It was located on Bollinger Canyon Road in San Ramon,CA. "M" and "B" stood for Mainhardt and Beil, the founders of the company. I am not sure of the spelling of their names. I never met Mr. Beil but I knew Mr. Mainhardt. The less said about him the better.

The technology did have a useful application in the design of emergency signalling devices used by downed airmen.

We experimented with a 40mm round fired from a bazooka-like weapon. It didn't go any where either.

Seems to work ok in howitzers. They are fired like a normal round though and just assisted by the rocket to add range. I guess the propellant that can stand the forces wasn't around back then I bet if they picked them back up now days, we could have a rifle that kicked like a .38 special in a carbine form factor but hit with the power of the .50 cal bmg... though I bet since a simple round costs $1.00 these days, those would be 10+ each.

[765x53]

I remember reading several reviews of the Dardick, a magazine-fed revolving mechanism. There was a .38 of about .38 special equivalence. A .22 was promised but I'm not sure it was ever made. The nylon "trounds" could be reloaded without tools. It seemed like a workable design and was offered for sale for some time.

[Cliff]

I remember when they tried to introduce the Darrdick, was supposed to be able to fit into carbine upper so you had the possibility of the a handgun or a rifle. When fired the tround would eject out of the right side of the cylinder. Magazine loaded from the top, pushing down on a spring until it was full. Actually it was an off shoot of an experiment the Air Force was doing in the 50's to see how fast they could make a gun fire. They made up a twenty(20MM) millimeter cartridge which was triangular shaped made out of the then new Lexan plastic, stuck on an adhesive belt, fed into a Gatlining type gun, from two sides, One side of breech was open would scoop the tround off the belt, rotate into a closed configuration with a plate closing over the tround, upon firing, the blast would push the tround out and away from the gun. Had to invent the lexan cartridge for lubrication properties. Gun fired at 150,000 rounds a minute. Have seen pictures of the thing firing, rather looked like a drawn out explosion, with debris from fired trounds flying all over the place. Interesting, One firing of the device and the Air Force shelved the project. Just a bit of trivia.

[Yodar]

More on the Gyrojet.

The steel used to make the cases for the rounds was a "free machining" alloy. It had a little more lead in the alloy than normal to make it easier to work with.

The cost of the rounds was always a problem. Mainhardt kept leaning on the staff to come up with a way to make the rounds as cheaply as a .45 ACP round. There was no way.

Using the little solid rocket motor to propel an underwater spear seem to work. It was tested in Mainhardt's pool. He didn't want to pursue producing it commercially for some reason.

M&B also made a carbine using the same techology as the pistol. It had the same short comings as the pistol.

You can see some of the rocket guns in an old James Bond movie; the one that takes place in Japan.

I have a tool room Gyrojet pistol gathering dust in my safe but no rounds.

[jhrosier]

Regarding the Dardick ammunition, there were two different kinds, as I recall.
There was a regualr cartridge that had a plastic body with a metal casehead imbedded to hold the primer. The other one was a plastic sleeve that accepted a factory cartridge, either .38SPecial or 9mm, I don't remember which.
I have one in my cartridge collection and I will try to remember to dig it out when I get home from work today.

Anybody remember the Army squeeze bore project?
A .50 BMG cartridge was loaded with a stack of umbrella shaped bullets and fired through a barrel that tapered from .50 to .30 caliber.

Jack

[Hobie]

Regarding the Dardick ammunition, there were two different kinds, as I recall.
There was a regualr cartridge that had a plastic body with a metal casehead imbedded to hold the primer. The other one was a plastic sleeve that accepted a factory cartridge, either .38SPecial or 9mm, I don't remember which.
I have one in my cartridge collection and I will try to remember to dig it out when I get home from work today.

Anybody remember the Army squeeze bore project?
A .50 BMG cartridge was loaded with a stack of umbrella shaped bullets and fired through a barrel that tapered from .50 to .30 caliber.

Jack

The Germans had AT squeeze-bore guns of several calibers. The goal of those was to increase velocity on lighter recoiling guns enough to penetrate the newer armor of the time. The guns were outpaced by armor and displaced by the explosive shell technology.

[Streetstar]

HK G-11 never made it either (caseless military battle rifle concept )

[765x53]

If I recall Daisy's case-less .22 was killed by the gun-control act of 1968. They had hoped it would be exempt because the propellant was ignited by a jet of compressed air. Until a few years ago Gun-Parts Corp. had the ammo for sale at very reasonable prices.

[mohavesam]

Winchester made a strange lever-action rifle. It had two stocks instead of one, always failed to re-chamber a second round without operating a manual crank, and wouldn't take a scope without gunsmith modifications. The magazine wasn't detachable, and it required special bullets to avoid detonation upon recoil, but maybe that was an urban myth? Not very accurate past 300 yards and it didn't even have a pistol grip or picaninny rail!
They tried several chamberings and variations, but I heard they gave up on the design and canceled it after a few million were made... Come to think of it, the company couldn;t even stay in business and is long gone now. I'm sure the French had something to do with it?

[Old Ironsights]

I don't know what's wrong with the Caseless idea... My Externally Ignited Caseless Ammunition 50 cal EBR works just jim-dandy.

Though I can only get off about 1 round every 45seconds or so...