Leverevolution Ballistics? Same as a normal round?

[oic0]

Ok so I was researching this new hyped ammo. Supposed to stretch the range of lever guns and make them shoot flatter blah blah blah. I was having grand dreams of what they could do if loaded like buffalobore or you guys would load them (~2200fps). Possibly a 200+ yard pistol round carbine?!?! Then they lost me. On their web page. They list their XTP rounds as having the same ballistic coefficient (0.169). So what is supposed to be the advantage of the newfangled rounds? Did they list that correctly? They do list the velocity higher but they probably just beefed up the powder. Is the bullet really no better and people are just buying gimmicky pointed bullets loaded a bit warmer than normal to make it seem as though they shoot flatter? Or am I missing something (I hope I am)?

On a side note, playing with that calculator. I think the bufallo bore 158 grain rounds have more oomph at 300 yards then hornady's regular loads at the muzzle? ever after 30 inches of drop. (Comparing rifle to handgun velocities). So I assume we limit ourselves to 150 yards for accuracy reasons alone?

[O.S.O.K.]

They provide a bit flatter trajectory but reports of terminal ballistics leave much to be desired.

I personally see no big advantage to using them. If I want a flatter shooting rifle, I have several others to choose from.

[Idiot]

On their web page. They list their XTP rounds as having the same ballistic coefficient (0.169). So what is supposed to be the advantage of the newfangled rounds? Did they list that correctly? They do list the velocity higher but they probably just beefed up the powder. Is the bullet really no better and people are just buying gimmicky pointed bullets loaded a bit warmer than normal to make it seem as though they shoot flatter? Or am I missing something (I hope I am)?

Even though they may have mistakenly listed the ballistic coefficient as the same, they are different. Pointed nosed bullets fly through the air with less resistance than flat nosed bullets and have better trajectories. Hornady also uses non-canister powders that are somewhat moist to allow more to "packed" inside the cases of this load (and their light-magnum stuff). This allows for higher velocities, within pressure limits, than standard factory ammo. The combination of higher velocity and better ballistic coefficients result in flatter trajectory and attendant energy retention. Both the theory and execution is correct and an improvement over standard and traditional loadings.

Now, with that being said, you must determine whether or not that little extra velocity and trajectory matters to you or not. It doesn't to me. I don't think the gain in the larger caliber loads makes much difference at all, and the gain in the smaller caliber loads, 30-30 Winchester to be specific, does not off set one annoying consequence. That consequence is that the point of aim is so different between the flex-tip bullet and a standard 30-30 loading that one cannot interchange the two loadings without re-sighting in the rifle. The gain was not worth the trouble to me. In addition, if I really need better trajectory than can be achieved by simply holding the sights a little high, then I'll use a 30/06 and actually realize a significant improvement.

If you have the money to buy one of the new Marlin's with the long barrels that are designed to complement Hornady's new ammo then I think it might be worth it. But I have neither the money or desire to do so. Besides, I'm perfectly happy with the performance I achieve with my old 94's and 336's using standard 30-30 Winchester ammo.

I won't repeat what I wrote on a earlier thread discussing 45/70 Government flex-tip performance except to say that I think that Hornady's new ammo in this application actually diminishes performance rather than enhance it. http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=23391

[Old Savage]

Jim Taylor had a chance to see a fellow hunter use the LeverEvolution ammo in the 45-70 in Africa on a number of different types of animals and was quite impressed. I will go with his report. I do know they are quite accurate in the calibers I have tested them in.

[BigSky56]

As all my elk are shot under 100 yds I'll stick with hornadys FN and RN bullets they been working for years. danny

[oic0]

So they probably just copy and pasted the ballistic coefficient from the hollow point of the same weight? well that is no fun. How are we supposed to theorize

[TedH]

Much hype, little improvement.

[86er]

Here are my notes from actual shooting - NOT some ballistics chart:

The Factory specs on the 45-70 LeverEvolution is:

MV 100 200 300
2050 +3 -4 -27

With a 22" barrel rifle I got:
1988 +3 -7 -36

With my 350 gr Kodiak handload I got:
2050 +3 -4.75 -28

With Grizzly Factory 350 gr Kodiak I got:
2250 +2.75 -4 -25

With Grizzly Factory 405 gr Kodiak I got:
2006 +2.75 -6.5 -40

30-30 Factory HLE out of 20" barrel I got:
2177 +3 -4.75 -30

30-30 PSE Starfire 150 gr factory:
2112 +3 -5 -34

30-30 170 gr Handload
2064 +3 -5.5 -35 (large groups- hard to tell exactly but 35+" at least)

You show me the LeverEvolution advantage!

[Tycer]

Didn't we read somewhere that the LEs were a bit brittle on bone?

[Idiot]

So they probably just copy and pasted the ballistic coefficient from the hollow point of the same weight? well that is no fun. How are we supposed to theorize

The BC of the FTX is .160 and the XTP is .169, which of course this makes your question even more relevant. (When comparing the bullets in loaded ammo the BC's are the same, but when comparing bullets to bullets in reloading components they are different.) So, if one were to assume there was a difference and all other things being equal, the XTP bullet would have a flatter trajectory than the XTP bullet.

Now for some perspective, the 357 Magnum cartridge is a handgun cartridge designed for close quarter self-defense. Trying to turn it into a long range cartridge, especially with smoke and mirrors, is an exercise in foolishness. And Hornady is doing a darn good job of "fooling" a lot of people.

[tman]

i used them in my bigbore .444 94 and had a couple of jams. i'd rather have the light magnum ammo with the flatnose 265 grain bullet, but hornandy discontinued the light and heavy magnums according to the latest issue of the RIFLEMAN!

[Idiot]

Here are my notes from actual shooting - NOT some ballistics chart:

The Factory specs on the 45-70 LeverEvolution is:

MV 100 200 300
2050 +3 -4 -27

With a 22" barrel rifle I got:
1988 +3 -7 -36

With my 350 gr Kodiak handload I got:
2050 +3 -4.75 -28

Thanks for the data. It certainly backs up the fact that heavier bullets retain their velocity longer than lighter bullets. It is however, difficult to measure the bullet's actual trajectory advantage or disadvantage given the assumption that Hornady must stay within SAAMI specs and us handloaders are not required to. The true test would be to compare two loads of identical velocities, using bullets of identical weight, and with the only difference being the points - one with a flex-tip, the other with a flat point. However, the test, in my opinion, would be pointless (excuse the pun) and not amount to a dimes worth of difference in the field.

BTW, do you have a tunnel or something to test points of impact? Your points of impact at various ranges are very precise.

[Idiot]

ii'd rather have the light magnum ammo with the flatnose 265 grain bullet, but hornandy discontinued the light and heavy magnums according to the latest issue of the RIFLEMAN!

I noticed that a while back also (this confirms it). Like Ruger replacing a perfectly good Vaquero with a Vaqueroette. Replacing instead of "adding to" is a real detriment - not an improvement.

One thing is sure in my experience; once I find something I like, it's discontinued.

[86er]

I only have one place that I can shoot 300 yds. However, the target backings are 50 in X 44 in white cardboard graduated by the inch on top and bottom. My measurements are the average or middle point in the group. I must say at 300 yds the groups are very hard to find a center of. Also, I have to put the bullseye very near the top of the paper to capture the holes on the backing. Lastly, all the shooting was done from a rest with a scope.

[Idiot]

That's good shooting 86er. On my best day I can obtain fairly accurate general trajectories, but lack the skill to obtain the precision you did. Hat's off.

[m.wun]

I am wondering if the new 150gr GMX LE will be better.I would think expansion would be
more reliable and alittle more velocity might flatten the trajectory.

[336A]

I am wondering if the new 150gr GMX LE will be better.I would think expansion would be
more reliable and alittle more velocity might flatten the trajectory.
I am wondering if the new 150gr GMX LE will be better.I would think expansion would be
more reliable and alittle more velocity might flatten the trajectory.

I'm wondering how well that little booger will penetrate in comparison to the 160gr FTX. The 160gr FTX shoots quite well from my Marlin. However I don't have any experience with the pistol ammo with the FTX bullets.

[Nixterdemus]

"Like Ruger replacing a perfectly good Vaquero with a Vaqueroette.

Oh lawdy, that cuts to the bone!

Already I'm wondering if I should question my manhood.

[edsguns]

Just a couple of comments to the excellent info provided in this posting already. As far as I know, there is no caution reference use of the LE 45-70 ammo. In other words, it is not loaded above the low SAAMI standards for the round. Thus it can and will be outperformed by the after market loads that may (and normally do) carry some type of caution reference what arms may use them safely. Kind of an apple vs orange thing, IMO.

Also, I believe that even though their appearence is much different, the .444 265gr load LM uses the same bullet type and design (interlok, I believe) as the LE load and only had a 10 FPS higher rating, which would quickly be lost with the improved BC of the FTX bullet. This may be the reason the LM .444 round was dropped. It will be interesting to see if this old LM load will be replaced by a new "Superperformance" one though.

[revolvergeek]

I have not used any of them, but I know three people that shot the Leverevolution .45-70 out of NEF Handirifles this past year for our revised primitive season. They were very pleased with the performance compared to the 'traditional' factory SP ammo that they had been shooting.

[shooter]

Thanks for all the great info, guys. I just got my 45-70 for Christmas and haven't got a chance to shoot it yet. I also got a box of Hornady LR ammo. I was excited about the new ammo, but sceptical. I got some brass for it too, so I'll have to work up some handloads to compare the two.

[Streetstar]

I am impressed with the accuracy i squeaked out of my 45-70 Guide gun at 100 yards with these bullets. Better than i have gotten with most other loads i have tried (but thats not saying much)

Cannot testify to their effectiveness at long ranges, ---- i like them due to the accuracy potential alone and will continue to use them as my go - to load in deer season. I am going to use something a bit heavier for hogs though

I also have a 30-30 sighted in with the FTX factory load. I am still up in the air about using it though based on some negative info i have heard about unreliable expansion at times. The FTX load does shoot a bit higher, but if it works, i dont mind dedicating one rifle to the load. Again, i really like its accuracy in my rifle, but in the end, i will probably switch back to boring 'ol 150 grain soft points when its time to hit the woods

[76/444]

I thought they were specifically marketed to eliminate the fear of chain fire?

I tried them in 444 and 44. nothing special. But i really, reeeeeally like the Hornady 265 FNLM in my 444. I hope I can pick up some bullets before they all dry up.

[jkbrea]

This is a 45-70 LE round I dug out of a large cow elk a couple years back. It wasn't a long shot, about 90 yards. It dropped her quick. The round went through a couple ribs and lodged just inside the hide on the opposite side. The crease is from hitting a rib.
I don't know how they stack up against other factory loads, but they are extremely accurate.

[Bogie35]

I've shot several of the 35 Remington LE factory loads. In my Marlin, they are very accurate. I haven't had the opportunity to try them on game, but I've read very favorable reports regarding their terminal performance. However, I've read mixed reviews about the 30-30 LE's. A guy buy the handle "35remington" on the marlin owners forum tested the 35 Rem LE's more thoroughly than anyone I've ever seen. Here's the link:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 117.0.html

And for comparison purposes, he had done exhaustive testing on other 35 Rem bullets:

http://www.suitorsgarage.com/gunstuff/3 ... part1.html

From these reports, the 35 Rem LE shoots flatter, is at least as accurate, and offers expansion and penetration characteristics (and weight retention) similar to the venerable Core-Lokt (in ballistic gel).

bogie

[rjroberts]

They're not bad though, depending on caliber no miracle either. Accuracy results from most of the other variables and Hornady generally is good stuff. They will have a little better terminal ballistic because of the more aerodynamic shape, though not extremely better. I'd say you might get another 50 yards at the outside from a Leverrevolution vs. the equivalen "normal" round.

Hornady has an excellent ballistic calculator on their site. Run some numbers on it, taken from examples in your caliber, and see. I made a couple of determinations from that and made a few decisions on my "mix".

[Hobie]

I bought a partial box of some Leverevolution from somebody but haven't shot them. I can't say that I see a need to switch to the flex-tip bullet. The concept is interesting.

[Modoc ED]

I didn't see this in any of the above post so I'll relate it in this post.

As pertains to the .444, on the end flap of the LeveRevolution .444 ammo there is a warning that says, "For use in 1:20 twist barrels only." That equates to Ballard rifling. Hornady does not recommend their LeveRevolution ammo for use in 1:38 Micro Groove rifled barrels or any Micro Groove rifled barrels for that matter.

As to the rubber tip getting stuck between the follower and the side of the mag tube in some rifles, Marlin's fix for it was to make their followers with a dished/dimpled face. The solution for Winchester BBs and older Marlins using LeveRevolution bullets is to load a regular flat nosed round into the mag tube first and then load the LeveRevolution behind it.

The truth of the matter of what I posted above as to barrel twist are my own rifles. I have two Marlin .444 rifles -- one 1:38 Micro Groove and one 1:20 Ballard and the LeveRevolution IS NOT as accurate in the Micro Groove barrel as it is in the Ballard barrel.

I can mirror the performance of the Hornady Light Magnum .444 by loading 54gr of H322 behind Hornady's 265gr Interlock Bullet in either Winchester or Hornady cases using Winchester Large Rifle Primes. That load actually impacts to within a 1/4" of factory light magnums.