OT: .38 S&W Special +P Mightier than .357 Mag or .44 Mag

[Andrew]

These threads are great.

The original post said nothing about the .38spl +P out performing the .357 or the .44 or the .45. It said that within a short range(25yards) that it would accomplish the same death that the bigger rounds did. IOW, dead is dead no matter what your holding in your grubby little hands. All the talk about FPS and ME are missing the point entirely. But I guess some people get more sensitive about this stuff than I do and they have to read stuff that's not actually there.

[gglass]

I agree with the OP. .38 Specials can be devastating to bears... As long as you do your part.

[Paladin]

Here is parting shot on this subject, since I, too, am concerned that some newer shooters might put a little too much credibility on some of the posts here that infer that a tiny .22 caliber pill, or even a hard cast .38, is universally acceptable and sufficiently humane for anything much over 150 lbs.

1) Accuracy counts, sure. But not all hunters shoot 1,000 rounds a month, like some here apparently do; so near accuracy should be taken into account.

2) Have we forgotten the adrenalin factor? Shooting game - even a harmless lil' Bambi - starts your juices flowing, breathing heavier, and hands shaking quite a bit more than shooting at a paper target, on your own time, from a pistol rest. Those of us who are VERY experienced hunters (no, I don't call myself one of those) have possibly taken control of these highly undesirable variables to the shooting process. But I've been around enough really good hunters to know that the effect does not go away completely - let's be honest with each other.

3) My carry gun is the Colt .45 ACP, which I sincerely believe is the finest and best handgun and caliber combination for self-defense, excluding perhaps some $5,000 custom job of the same type that I can't afford. For me, a properly loaded .44 Magnum is the optimum fun gun and hunting handgun for anything in my state, even though I also own a beautiful .357 6" Python (which I rarely fire). For hunting, no .38 Special load can come close to a similar load in a .44, I don't think. I THINK that the .44 boolit IS bigger, and that its optimum expansion is also larger; but don't quote me. And even my bespectacled eyes can see that the casing holds more powder; and the gun has more steel on it to handle more powerful loads. Simple observations, methinks.

Having said that, people who prefer larger firearms are not all inept at shooting or cleaning their handguns, thank you very much. In fact, I would guess that MOST folks who prefer the larger bore firearms are quite experienced shooters; new shooters are frequently intimidated by overblown stories of recoil and other nonsense. My first handgun was indeed a sweet little Colt Police Positive Special (.38 Spcl. caliber). That was 50 years ago. For 43 years (starting with the .45 ACP in Viet Nam) I've fired and regularly carried by mandate, necessity or (sometimes) choice the .38, .380, .357, 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. And while it's true that most men between 13 and 18 years of age, and then again most folks older than 45 think that they know it all (and none of us do), I've seen a few and studied quite a few police shootings, the source of most of my observations handgun effectiveness.

4) Again realizing that rank-and-file police officers are not necessarily the best shots in the world, they are (at least in California) regularly trained and must qualify several times a year, under stress conditions and rather considerable peer pressure. Even so, they do not always land their shots in a 1/2 inch circle on live "prey" - quite the contrary. Now liken that to a shot at some Bruin or large tusker that emerges out of nowhere, perhaps confronting a hunter who might only practice just before the season begins! We are not all 86er's on this net!

5) I have experienced (been a part of) the police transitions all the way from the off-hand in pocket, one hand upright side stance(!) with .38 revolvers to .357's to 9mm's to .40's and .45's. Since the FBI in all of their supposed wisdom did not "bless" the .38 Super semi-auto pistol (pretty much the same, ballistically), the .357 died to the semi-auto. Citing Fresno City Police and Fresno County Sheriff shootings of which I have studied since the 38 and 9mm era (whatever was FBI's Holy Grail at the moment), memory serves me well that there were several continued attacks after the assailant was shot several times. Once the .40's and .45's were employed, the assailants were usually dropped immediately in their tracks, either permanently or long enough for the police to take control of the situation.

As far as I'm concerned, in the real world where you might not be able to take 3 seconds a shot and punch neat little cloverleaf patterns, using shooting glasses and earplugs, into a piece of highly contrasted target paper at 25 yards, and on a flat terrain with no obstacles and plenty of warning, it is clear to this old codger (among many other opinionated old codgers on this site ) that the .38 argument for larger game is, shall we say, a bit too apologetic and therefore exaggerated for this fine little target round.

+1, There is a reason we fought for our .45s in SOCOM.

[pokey]

I agree with the OP. .38 Specials can be devastating to bears... As long as you do your part.

where did you find a left handed smith?

[pokey]

Gday all,
It basically does not matter a stuff about ballistics et al, the answer is bullet placement, elephants have been killed with a rimfire 22, not that it would be my pref caliber. Placement is essential. If you can do the deal under pressure you will win every time. One great African hunter whose name escapes me at this time took the heaviest species with a 7mm Mauser.
It would have taken great faith to stand in front of a charging bull elephant coming in at several thousand kilos with a 7X 57
They prevailed. Elephant etc are no stronger now than they were then, nor is man. I am very comfortable with a heavy slug in a 38spl to do what I want it to do with good placement. Maybe we gotta look at training again. Gun control is hitting your target.
Rgds

william [karamojo] bell.

[Nath]

I don't know about the large african critters but some folk are still quoting Ft/lbs here!

When I see critters carrying pocket calculators it may be of some value!

I think some folk take bears with fancy airguns now! So yeah,,,,,

Nath.

[rimrock]

We all have the opportunity to became the shakiest gun in the west in a bad situation. Shoot the the one you own or the one you K N O W you can hit where it aims. A little large bullet enhances the chance you might actually make a one shot stop if you have to.

[336A]

ED,just out of curiosity what ammo were you using when you shot that bear?

[86er]

Here's my $.02 or maybe it's only worth $.01: A living thing dies because the brain cannot get O2. Bullets do this by making a hole in the circulatory system or respiratory system, or severing the signal that tells one or both of them to function. You can make the hole with anything that will get to those parts and cut a hole. A slow leak will cause a slow death (animal runs, bad guy causes a few more seconds of havoc). A big leak will cause a reaction in less time. Now if you totally pulverize the parts and the blood pressure drops instantly the creature will drop or stop very quickly. So if you hit the brain or spine you will likely get a drop, but not necessarily a death if you didn't cut the wires to the resp/circ system(s). That person, animal can be kept alive but may be immobile. If you shred the lungs completely, especially on an exhale, the lack of new O2 and blood holding O2 dropping from the brain can cause a very quick stop. A heart shot will sometimes take a few seconds to take effect because the shock can shoot the blood through the arteries and actually fuel the brain for those seconds before it cannot replenish it. This is why on animals a lot of folks like to disrupt the musculo-skeletal system by breaking bone and tearing muscle at the same time as cutting the pipes. This way the animal is broken down so it cannot flee while the 02 loss takes effect. Everyone knows this - I'm preaching to the choir. But if we all know it, how come it is not obvious that the chance (odds) of getting a quick stop are greater with the bullet that causes the most damage? The 38 here could be a Grizzly Extreme that opens to a 1 inch cutting X while the 44 could be a hardcast or bullet that fails to expand and makes a .429 hole. Give the same exact penetration to the right pipes (or brain or spine), the 38 with the Extreme bullet would likely cause a faster reaction than the non expanding 44, but both would result in death eventually. That is where penetration comes into play with thin skinned game (and people). The longer the channel of the bullet the more surface area it cuts. This compensates for a big hole with a short channel. Obviously, this is why the bonded core, controlled expansion, whatever you want to call it bullets work so well - they cut a big round hole and the channel carries on for several inches perhaps even through the animal. So to kill isn't really that hard. To STOP right now is much more difficult to achieve and in that case, the cartridge/bullet combo that causes the most damage is more efficient than the one that causes less damage (lets less blood and 02 out of the pipes). More consideration needs to be given to the bullet when making a comparison in this case. I am certain an equal bullet behavior in 38 and 357 would show a quicker reaction caused by the 357 with equal shot placement. Go to 45 diameter, same bullet behavior and it would be quicker than the 38 but might equal the 357 or might exceed it, depending on the penetration. What is the length and diameter of the damage in the flesh? Did the bullet make it to the brain or spinal cord? The one that reaks the most damage will be the one that causes a quicker stop but both are going to kill with the same placement whether they cause a leak or open the floodgates.

[madman4570]

Now, that is what I call one fine explanation. Thanks Joe, for keeping it real!

[Ridgerunner]

as I recall, the army went with a Colt Double Action .38 LONG COLT during the Phillipine Insurrection. The Moros, fanatical Islamists (deja vu????) would chew betel nut, with an effect similar to cocaine, then bind their testes in wet rawhide. Between the drug high and the intense pain caused by the testical binding, they were darn near unstoppable, often asorbing 6 .38 LONG COLT bullets and still inflicting fatal knife wounds on the sentries.....

[Travis Morgan]

All things being equal, a bigger bullet will do what a smaller one does, but better.

[oic0]

Higher energy rounds have a higher chance of shock waves creating remote organ damage and the quick blood pressure spike causing blood vessels in the brain to explode right? I would be much more confident that if I shot a perp with the hot 125g JHP double tap loads that they would fall down and never get back up. I went and shot some at a friends house. He said there was so much flame both from the barrel and the cylinder that he thought my gun had blown up. Also it kicked pretty darn good. It was worse in my friends 6 inch raging bull than in my 2 inch snub. The rubber handle on the bull just sucks for high power rounds IMO. With the high force the rubber disappears and the narrow metal underneath presses into your hand.

Now that the gun is back resting in the top shelf of my closet guess what is in it? .38 special mouse fanny burp loads. Why? when some stuff is going down and my adrenaline is going real good I'm probably going to shoot at least 2 or 3 rounds (probably in 1 second lol). Maybe all 6. I have a lot more likelihood of getting a 2 or 3 on target with a little pop and a smidge of muzzle flip than with an explosion of thunder and fire backed by my hand trying to come off. What if I don't grip the gun good? what if it is my wife picking the gun up? anywho, there are a lot of reasons but in the end I feel safer having old reliable .38s in there. The wife was the original reason but the more thought I put in to it, I would personally rather have the .38s too. The double action on the python is nice and smooth, I can cycle it several times a second. I think my chances of killing a perp with several small controlled shots exceed my chances of lobbing a couple big ones at him and praying they hit.

[don Tomás]

RE: .38 S&W
It's all about shot placement...

An old top-break Iver/Johnson .38S&W was the murder weapon used in one of the last 187's (DA ruled justifiable) I investigated before retiring. Jealous boyfriend beating on the girlfriend's windshield with a bumper jack (when's the last time you saw a bumper jack? You know this was a while ago). Anyway, the girlfriend takes offense to this and sticks this rusty piece of cr@p Iver Johnson out of the driver's window and cranks off 5 rounds. Amazing that it fired at all with all the corrosion; we had to use a wooden dowel to drive the casings out of the cylinder to do forensics.

First shot takes the boyfriend in the left femoral artery, second shot catches him in the abdominal aorta, third round 5X's the heart, fourth round creased the scalp (the coroner found this one), fifth round we never knew. Tech doing the autopsy said the fella had bled out like a hog that had been hung.

We figure recoil and the gal falling back in the seat caused the climbing rounds. This fella got his ticket punched but good, with 140gn lead slugs traveling at about 600FPS?

[Travis Morgan]

First shot takes the boyfriend in the left femoral artery, second shot catches him in the abdominal aorta, third round 5X's the heart, fourth round creased the scalp (the coroner found this one), fifth round we never knew. Tech doing the autopsy said the fella had bled out like a hog that had been hung.

We figure recoil and the gal falling back in the seat caused the climbing rounds. This fella got his ticket punched but good, with 140gn lead slugs traveling at about 600FPS?

Good girl! Can't say much for the grouping, but the results speak for themselves!