ATTN: MDs. Sending a poor boy to medical school?????

[adirondakjack]

I know we have at least a couple of doc's who frequent the forum. This question is for you. My youngest is 15, a tenth-grader at or near the top of all of his honors HS classes, (so he's got the brains and the work ethic) who wants to be a doctor. How in the heck do people get that done if they don't have a lot of cash? Our school counselling folks parrot back canned answers and don't know themselves how to help, or so it seems.

My wife and I are not rich by any measure. I suffered a work-related injury that sidelined me for about 8 years, and those should have been my big "earning" years. We live ok, don't have any debt, but we don't have a whole lot of money either (hint, it's taking me two years to scrape up 10K to replace my aging truck with a newER one...)

The boy is one of those rare kids who is good at virtually anything he puts his mind to, and has never been in any trouble, etc. In my obviously biased opinion he deserves this, but I am at a loss to figure out HOW this happens without the wife and I getting buried in debt we couldn't handle. We're both in our 50s and will be well into our 60s by the time he got an MD, let alone started making money.....

Please feel free to PM if you don't want to post openly.

I need to know what it is I don't know.....

Thanks.

[Pisgah]

It is easier today for a "poor kid" to get through school than ever before. Education loans, like all other types of loans, are hard to find right now, but loans aren't the best alternative many times, anyway.

Large universities, especially the big names like Harvard, Yale, Brown, etc., are sitting on humongous endowments and, fortunately for many, their liberal guilt is brimming over. For a kid from a poor economic background, particularly one with a record of academic excellence, these schools can be cheaper to attend than your local community college -- even free!

He's got 3 or 4 years to prepare. #1 priority should be academic excellence -- not just "pretty good", but "the best"; #2 should be looking in to every scholarship program available, from the local Rotary Club to schools up to the Ivy League level and beyond. If he wants it bad enough and is willing to work for it, he can get it. My daughter did it. By her own initiative and hard work, she attended a $40,000 a year college and now has a Masters in her field -- and my TOTAL cash outlay for her higher education has been under $5000.

[RANisbet]

Not that many years ago, I was not in a situation much different than you.
Both my boys decided to go to med school. Twice your problem!
We found out that if they attended a state med school, the tuition was very reasonable.
Both my boys atended and completed med school.
One went to a University Of Texas Med school and the other to a private med school that has an ageement with the state to accept the same tuition as a state Med school.
Both my boys went on to do their specializations in Radiology with sub-specialty in Neuro-Radiology.
Both received outstanading educations and are now partners in their respective groups.
There are numerous places that will provide loans and grants.
Believe it or not, there are some "communities in the U.S." that will subsidize or completely cover med school costs if the student agrees to practice in their locality after graduation.
There are also Pell grants and others that provide small gifts that help pay for books etc.
There are also gvernment loans avaialable that are interest free until after graduation.

Note: At 15 your son needs to be concentrating on finding a good college, then seeing that he graduates with a GPA of at least 3.5. What undergrad degree isn't as important as the quality of the school and the grades, but a scisnce based degree (not engineering) will help more than one in English or History. Biology is always a good one.
Also, Med schools want people that have diverse interests. They will take a 3.5 GPA student with many outside activities on his vitae before they will take a book nerd with a 4.0 GPA and no other credentials.
Good luck.

[AJMD429]

Making excellent (not just 'good') grades, and being 'well-rounded' and participating in community things helps.

Our income was around $3,000 a year and no way I'd have been able to do any college if not for a full-tuition scholarship at what ironically was a rich-kid's private university. I had to keep over a 4.75 GPA there to keep the scholarship, but did so, until I switched to Pharmacy as a major (got me out of taking French, which I'd never have gotten an 'A' in). Eventually I transferred to another university, but kept the borrowing to a minimum, lived cheaply, etc. Medical school involved more borrowing but some scholarships still, and a state school by all means was the way to go for me. After those ten years (6 for pharmacy, 4 for medicine) went by, I finally got a chance to get paid for work - during residency I made about $21,000 a year (had to work 80-hour weeks to do it, though).

So the above posters are right - got to lay the groundwork, and get the scholarships. Consider a 'side' degree like pharmacy, as a career alternative should he/she change goals, or for some reason not get in to med school. Pharmacists make way more than 'premed majors' without an MD.

Steer them away from primary care, though; unless they want to spend 13 years training and delaying income, to make $20-$25 an hour. You can make that much doing far less stressful things, and start making it when you're alot younger.

Personally, unless we reverse this socialist nonsense, and halt the breakdown our society is having, I don't think I'd recommend any career in health except maybe nursing (RN's make almost what pharmacists do) or PT or as an Xray Tech. Too much regulation.

Better they get a job for something people pay cash for - lawn care, tattoos, etc. - volunteer at a local shelter for the 'humanitarian' aspect, if desired.

[/cynicism off]

[oic0]

I didn't do medical school and I am not a Doctor. I did just graduate from college 3 years ago though and never payed a dime. My ACT score opened up all of the doors for me, for undergrad anyway. It went from no one knowing I existed to 3 or 4 letters a day begging me to come to different colleges. Some offering nice scholarships.

Like the other guys said, there is a lot more involved but good test scores definitely help! I was offered a scholarship to northwestern scholars college (Nerd section at NSU, definetly not harvard. Then again my highschool grades were soso) and the requirements were at least a 28 on every section of the ACT and a 3.0 or higher (I had to retake it to get my math higher , I suck at math). Though they would accept lower grades with higher ACT or higher grades with lower ACT, a sliding scale thing.

All that work and I went to a dinky local college here in town so I wouldn't have to get a loan to afford living (dorm wasn't part of the scholarship, neither was food etc...!). I have an aversion to debt. It worked out fine though. The alternative would have me still in school, up to my eyeballs in debt, never would have met my wife, and about to graduate into a horrible job market with student loans to pay.

[adirondakjack]

I didn't do medical school and I am not a Doctor. I did just graduate from college 3 years ago though and never payed a dime. My ACT score opened up all of the doors for me, for undergrad anyway. It went from no one knowing I existed to 3 or 4 letters a day begging me to come to different colleges. Some offering nice scholarships.

Like the other guys said, there is a lot more involved but good test scores definitely help! I was offered a scholarship to northwestern scholars college (Nerd section at NSU, definetly not harvard. Then again my highschool grades were soso) and the requirements were at least a 28 on every section of the ACT and a 3.0 or higher (I had to retake it to get my math higher , I suck at math). Though they would accept lower grades with higher ACT or higher grades with lower ACT, a sliding scale thing.

All that work and I went to a dinky local college here in town so I wouldn't have to get a loan to afford living (dorm wasn't part of the scholarship, neither was food etc...!). I have an aversion to debt. It worked out fine though. The alternative would have me still in school, up to my eyeballs in debt, never would have met my wife, and about to graduate into a horrible job market with student loans to pay.

Thanks all.

oic0, My son took the PLAN (ACT practice test) a few mos ago. He did pretty durn good. Without the numbers in front of me, the aptitude side showed he'd do well in the healing arts, science.... The sub-scores showed if he did as well on the ACT, he'd just about make the cut for Ivy league schools (I don't remember the numbers, but let's say they need a 2.7, he had a 2. and would fine for any less competitive schools. His dream of course is a full ride to Harvard, and if that keeps his nose to the grindstone, I won't discourage it.

I guess I need to chill a bit, but my fear is that I will be thinking he's got plenty of time and only needs to keep up the excellence in academics, then find out we missed the boat somehow... He deserves better than that

Keep the ideas coming please......

FWIW, regardless of the way the world is going, I think the world will always need decent, caring docs, and they will always eat at least as well as the guy who cuts the lawn. If yer happy with what yer doing, and it is something that is needed, YOU HAVE success

[Old Time Hunter]

Now don't laugh, have him learn Mexican or something similar....you'll find quite a few grants that'll open up. They snap up bilinguals fairly quick, especially if they have a language skill that'll help illegals and such. Of course he'll still require "good" grades.

[2571]

Now don't laugh, have him learn Mexican or something similar....you'll find quite a few grants that'll open up. They snap up bilinguals fairly quick, especially if they have a language skill that'll help illegals and such. Of course he'll still require "good" grades.

Daughter's first language in Mexican Spanish although we're Anglo's. Never did a bit of good for her. HS grades (honors) & athletics got her into Univ Michigan. Degree and 4 years of NCAA varsity experience but having hard time finding employment.

[Ray Newman]

Look into the undergrad and grad programs offered by the armed services.

[pharmseller]

The way health care is going, if I could go back in time I'd get a BSN and become a Nurse Practioner (NP), also know as a mid-level. Much less education cost, much less overhead, decent to excellent income. I know several doctors who believe that cuts in reimbursement will result in a big demand for more mid-levels, since MDs will be too expensive.
Talk to an NP for more info.
NOT THE SAME AS AN MD! Just want to clarify. For the money I spend on my insurance I demand an MD, but those days might be coming to an end.


P

[AJMD429]

The way health care is going, if I could go back in time I'd get a BSN and become a Nurse Practioner (NP), also know as a mid-level. Much less education cost, much less overhead, decent to excellent income.

I've worked with a couple NP's over the years who I firmly believe delivered FAR better health care than the majority of MD's I've worked with. There are precious few MD's (or NP's) who truly care about being thorough, and doing solid preventative care, and are willing to fight the insurance companies vs. get 'cut in on the action' by prescribing the most profitable (usually generic) drugs, ordering the cheapest (not necessarily useful) tests, and so on.

I've worked with NP's who made MORE than I do, but that was always because they saw more patients, worked longer hours, or otherwise truly deserved that income. Yes, their training IS different, and often entails fewer years, but IF (and that is a BIG 'if') their focus is truly on delivering quality care, they can surely do it. I feel that by sharing my patients with an NP, the two of us have different backgrounds, and will make different mistakes , so between the two of us, we'll provide better care than two doctors would.

FWIW, regardless of the way the world is going, I think the world will always need decent, caring docs, and they will always eat at least as well as the guy who cuts the lawn. If yer happy with what yer doing, and it is something that is needed, YOU HAVE success

THAT is very true. I feel blessed to do the little 'good' that God facilitates through me. I feel irritated that our socialist society has made it punish my family, when I could 'go with the flow' and be a 'corporate' MD and make three times the income, but I guess that's the breaks. Could be worse. I could have been born in Sri Lanka or somewhere. So far, I've not gone hungry or without shelter, and now and again I get to buy a really cool toy. No real 'complaints' - but that doesn't stop me from complaining...

The kid should follow his 'calling' and enjoy his life; trying to second-guess the government and do what 'they' will reward is not only impossible, but not very fulfilling, even if you do manage to get rich off the deal.

[stretch]

What everybody else said.

Let the young man keep his nose to the grindstone, get good grades,
and be well-rounded. There are, today, LOTS of academic scholarships
available.

When I went to college back in the early 80s, there were not so many
academic scholarships available. I had a little bit of money coming from
my time in the USAF. I worked - up to three part-time jobs at one point -
went to a Community College for the first two years, and managed to get
my 4-year degree in 4.5 years, Summa cum Laude with no debt. It can be
done. I have never worked so hard before or since, and I cannot recall any
period in my life as rewarding as that one was.

My 13-year-old is in the same boat as your 15-year-old. Best of luck to
them both!!

-Stretch

[adirondakjack]

What everybody else said.

Let the young man keep his nose to the grindstone, get good grades,
and be well-rounded. There are, today, LOTS of academic scholarships
available.

When I went to college back in the early 80s, there were not so many
academic scholarships available. I had a little bit of money coming from
my time in the USAF. I worked - up to three part-time jobs at one point -
went to a Community College for the first two years, and managed to get
my 4-year degree in 4.5 years, Summa cum Laude with no debt. It can be
done. I have never worked so hard before or since, and I cannot recall any
period in my life as rewarding as that one was.

My 13-year-old is in the same boat as your 15-year-old. Best of luck to
them both!!

-Stretch

My own story is similar to yours. The product of a dysfunctional family (if ya look it up, our picture is in the dictionary), I quit school and became self-supporting at 17, got married (big mistake) at 18, joined the USAF, and after my 4 for Sam, got divorced and went to school, first at community college, then state U, a process that including the USAF, only took me 12 yrs from the time I left HS. By then I was a parent of a newborn (not this one, his 24 yr old brother), and went broke working jobs requiring a 4 yr degree, so went into sales, then into business for myself, etc... yet I value my college experience because it taught me that despite hardship, working two or three jobs and eating mac n cheese (the box kind, 4 for a dollar) I could tackle about anything, etc. Had I been a "pipeline" student with moral and maybe $$$ support, I could have gone further (advisors leaned on me to go to grad school, even as I drove a 200K mile pinto, had $12 in the bank, and a newborn). I want to do a bit better for my kid if at all possible, make that trans-generational leap that American dreams are made of, etc.

[stretch]

It's funny - each generation wants to make things better for the next.

On the other hand, tough times DO build character, and they have a
tendency to prioritize things. I'd like to make things easier for my kid than
they were for me, but I don't want him spoiled. I want him to know what
hard work is. I want him to know what it is to do without, but I don't want to
watch him suffer too much. Sort of a contradiction there, eh?!

-Stretch

[AJMD429]

It's funny - each generation wants to make things better for the next. On the other hand, tough times DO build character, and they have a
tendency to prioritize things. I'd like to make things easier for my kid than
they were for me, but I don't want him spoiled. I want him to know what
hard work is. I want him to know what it is to do without, but I don't want to
watch him suffer too much. Sort of a contradiction there, eh?!

I had a conversation once with a friend who has the same number of kids as I do, yet an income 5 to 10 times mine, and he said it must be difficult to raise kids when you didn't have a great income. I thought for a moment, and thought about other people I know who have similar sized families and live on half or less what I make, and then I looked the way his kids each had their own bedroom (luxury, in my book), AND their own individual 'hobby' room (and the bedrooms and hobby rooms were all bigger than our house's living room), and responded that I thought it would be hard to raise kids when you had lots of money, because it would be hard not to spoil them. How can kids raised like that cope with life if they ever DO have to live in a ghetto where they have to take their $200 car's battery inside to keep their car from being stolen, and live on MacNCheese & beans? Will they be able to have a 'fun' vacation taking hikes at the local State Park, or will it have to involve the ocean, or Europe, to be worthy of considering 'fun'?

[adirondakjack]

It's funny - each generation wants to make things better for the next.

On the other hand, tough times DO build character, and they have a
tendency to prioritize things. I'd like to make things easier for my kid than
they were for me, but I don't want him spoiled. I want him to know what
hard work is. I want him to know what it is to do without, but I don't want to
watch him suffer too much. Sort of a contradiction there, eh?!

-Stretch

It ain't so much a matter of spoiling em, IMHO, as giving em a leg up. If a kid has some help, he can compete for the desired schools, jobs, etc with those born with a silver spoon. Now he's still gonna have to work hard if daddy can't buy a college library or whatever to oversome sloth or stupidity, but given that he will work hard and has a family in his corner, he has half a chance..... Even things like books, car insurance, etc cost money.....