Why octagon brl?

[Nixterdemus]

I know some were made back in the day, but other than that can they be loaded w/hotter rnds to greater limits or is the action the weaker link in comparison to the brl?

I'm trying to wrap my head around the reason(s) for these heavy barrels in a short rifle.

I can see the bull barrel concept in a bolt action.

[Mich Hunter]

They just look sexy

[JReed]

They were the bull barrel of their day. No you cant load them any hotter the barrel shank is still the same size as a round barrel once the threading is done.

Personally I think they look better then the round barrels they just have more character.

[AJMD429]

I think on my "1895" Marlin (24" 336 in .45-70) the barrel is surely LIGHTER weight than it would be if round. Every time I pick up the gun I'm startled by how little it weighs.

Somehow the all-round barrel of the 'Guide Gun' just LOOKS stronger.

I suppose they are basically the same strength, though, are they not...?

[Griff]

They were the bull barrel of their day. No you cant load them any hotter the barrel shank is still the same size as a round barrel once the threading is done.
Personally I think they look better then the round barrels they just have more character.

Remember, steel is a relatively recent invention... and hi-content nickel steel is even more so. However, given the physical properties of iron and early steels, the hexagonal shape of the "octagon" barrel provides more strength and rigidity than a round barrel. The "harmonics" of a projectile that is .001-.002 greater in diameter and the subsequent shock wave of expanding gases behind it provide movement of metal and affect accuracy when disrupted thru tenons, bands and other appurtenances attached to the barrel. Octogan barrels exhibit less of these harmonic disturbances.

If you understood that, then good... cause that's as far into the subject as I'm able to!

[J Miller]

Balance: With the big bore rounds such as the .44s and .45s the bore is so large in comparison to a round barrel they often don't balance right. The octagon barrels being heavier balance better.

Stiffness: Octagon barrels are stiffer than round barrels. This can and often does help with accuracy.

the hexagonal shape of the "octagon" barrel provides more strength and rigidity than a round barrel.

Griff me thinks there is something wrong with that part of your statement. A hexagon has 6 flats, an octagon has 8 flats. How can one have the shape of the other??? I'm cornfused.



Joe

[Nate C.]

The manufacturing process for octagonal barrels was easier than that for round barrel production? Just a guess.

[AJMD429]

Question on the 'weight' and 'balance' issue:

If you have an octagonal barrel, there are two 'thicknesses' to measure, the thickest part, from the bore's groove surface out to a 'corner' of the exterior, and the thinnest part, halfway between, from the bore's groove surface out to the middle of a 'flat' on the exterior.

The octagonal barrel would be heavier than the round one if the normal round barrel were to have the thickness of the 'flat' measurement.
The octagonal barrel would be lighter than the round one if the normal round barrel were to have the thickness of the 'edge' measurement.
I suspect the round barrels vary, but in general are NOT necessarily the same as the 'flat' measurement, but likely somewhere in between the two.

Judging from the examples (modern reporductions) I've seen of round and octagonal in the same caliber, my octagonals all seem to have about the same diameter across the flats, whether .35 or .45 caliber, so the .35 octagonals are quite a bit heavier than their round counterparts, but the .45 ones seem lighter than their round counterparts.

[stew71]

They just look sexy

Yup. 'Nuff said right there.

[jhrosier]

The manufacturing process for octagonal barrels was easier than that for round barrel production? Just a guess.

I think that we have a winnah!

An octagon barrel can be shaped from a forging with a flat file. A round barrel requires a lathe.


Jack

[KirkD]

As others have mentioned, an oct. Barrel is stiffer. For Winchester, the round barrel was standard and the oct. barrel a bit more expensive, so I doubt the oct barrel was easier to prduce.

[Griff]

the hexagonal shape of the "octagon" barrel provides more strength and rigidity than a round barrel.

Griff me thinks there is something wrong with that part of your statement. A hexagon has 6 flats, an octagon has 8 flats. How can one have the shape of the other??? I'm cornfused.
Joe

T'were a test... glad to see you passed!

[Nixterdemus]

Thanks for the replies gent. I just compared a rnd 20" SS in 44 mag w/oct 20" bl in 44 mag and the octagon brl comes in at 1.6 lbs more and it's all forward of the receiver so it's more than a little brl hvy.

Enough so that I'm figuring on how much to chop off so I have a little more balance w/o sacrificing ballistics.

I probably could use the extra weight if it was a 454, but the 44 mag is a pussycat out of a rifle/carbine.

[Griff]

...but the 44 mag is a pussycat out of a rifle/carbine.

Aye GAWD, but that's subject to personal interpretation! Certain characteristics, such as drop at comb, drop @ heel and such have an impact on that. My original, '69 Winchester 94 in .44Mag was more punishment on my shoulder than my Remington 700 in 7mmRemMag.

[pokey]

the hexagonal shape of the "octagon" barrel provides more strength and rigidity than a round barrel.

Griff me thinks there is something wrong with that part of your statement. A hexagon has 6 flats, an octagon has 8 flats. How can one have the shape of the other??? I'm cornfused.
Joe

T'were a test... glad to see you passed!

grab your hat, here we go again.

[gundownunder]

Just a theory and it may have no basis in fact, but here goes

it was all done for the movies!!!
As you have already been told, octagonal barrels are stiffer so imagine how many round barrels John Wayne would have bent around peoples heads

[Gobblerforge]

I would say that the reason octagon barrels are the way they are is because that is the way the blacksmith made them. In the process of making a barrel by hand the metal is drawn out to length in the square cross section. Then by hammering in the diamond cross section and working the four corners down an octagon is formed. Very easy and fast. Now to take it to round, and yes this is done by hand, the 8 corners are hammered down and then the 16 and so on until the barrel is roughly rounded. So now the roughly rounded blank is hammered by rotating and sliding the stock back and forth between two tools called swages to round and straiten the surface. It is a lot more work to make round over octagon. Filing the flats is a lot easier than a round surface also. I don't know this for a fact but I've heard stories of barrels being shaped with draw knives that were very sharp. Iron is that much softer than steel.
Gobbler

[Cliff]

I think Gobbleforge has it right. Early Smiths could make an octagon easier than a round barrel. Another thought, no evidence but it would make it easier to define it as a rifle as opposed to a smoothbore. Same as the arsenal made muskets. They were left in the white and all rifles were made with browned finish. Springfield tried browning muskets which were stored in stands, but could not spot any rusting so they went back to leaving them in the white.. At that time smoothbore muskets were the norm for military issue. When they went to rifled muskets they tried browning them same problem. As rifles were limited issue they could control the problem. When the military adopted the rifled musket they could insure they were kept in the white. You don't see many octagon smoothbores either. Just a SWAG. I will shutup now.

[Hobie]

Remember that when octagonal (not hexagonal) barrels became the norm all the work was done by hand, whether the barrels were forged with the flats and finish filed or the flats layed out and filed, most smiths didn't have the lathes necessary to get a correctly round barrel. The big producers, arsenals, did have the necessaries and muskets had round barrels. Smooth or rifled was not a determinate condition. So-called smooth rifles had rifle form including octagonal barrels and were likely a predominate form in some areas.

The octagonal became a traditional thing. This was so ingrained that although the Winchester M1894 rifle was standard with a round barrel (cheaper in the industrial age than octagonal) most were made with octagonal barrels. Many folks still see the octagonal barrel as harkening back to the traditional.

The octagonal form is stiffer, it is sort of like a fluted barrel in reverse, but I don't think that is the real selling point for most people.

[Nixterdemus]

My original, '69 Winchester 94 in .44Mag was more punishment on my shoulder than my Remington 700 in 7mmRemMag.

Now, bear in mind I'm only shooting wwb target loads, but I thought the carbine was mild. I haven't shot the short rifle.

"...a fluted barrel in reverse..."

Well, I'm trying to double clutch & put 'er in reverse.

[buckeyeshooter]

Can't say why the started making them, but I can tell you they look better!

[Leverdude]

I think on my "1895" Marlin (24" 336 in .45-70) the barrel is surely LIGHTER weight than it would be if round. Every time I pick up the gun I'm startled by how little it weighs.

Somehow the all-round barrel of the 'Guide Gun' just LOOKS stronger.

I suppose they are basically the same strength, though, are they not...?

It is lighter. Its the same corner to corner as a round barrel so from flat to flat its smaller. They all are and have to be if you think about it on most guns. If you look where a round barrel abuts the reciever in most cases its not very shy of being flush. So if an octagon barrel were heavier the corners would stick out beyond the reciever ring.

I'd say theyre both plenty strong but its obvious a regular oct barrel would have less hoop strength.

[Leverdude]

The manufacturing process for octagonal barrels was easier than that for round barrel production? Just a guess.

Originally yes. Originally a barrel was forged around a mandrel and a flat sided barrel was easier on the gun maker. I think once mass production kicked in and round barrels were easier the demand for octagon barrels continued because people dont like change. They may be more rigid but I think if that contributed to acuracy we'd see barrels with corners on modern target and sniper rifles.
I'm of the opinion its just a cosmetic thing then & now.

[kimwcook]

What ever the reason, I like octagon barrels. I agree they look sexy!!

[gundownunder]

They may be more rigid but I think if that contributed to accuracy we'd see barrels with corners on modern target and sniper rifles.

Isn't that why they put all those corners on fluted barrels

At the end of the day, who really cares, as long as they look good

[JReed]

They may be more rigid but I think if that contributed to accuracy we'd see barrels with corners on modern target and sniper rifles.

Isn't that why they put all those corners on fluted barrels

At the end of the day, who really cares, as long as they look good

And Remington makes those new triangular barreled varmint rifles.