Another horse question

[Doc Hudson]

Would it be unreasonable for three men on horseback, with spare saddle horses and a pack horse to make a 200 mile ride in less than a week? Even over some pretty rough terrain?

This would be no pleasure ride but a forced march, which relates to my earlier cavalry question.

[horsesoldier03]

IMO it is doable but would have to know the complete senario to say a definate YES!

I am sure someone somewhere has done it in the past!

[76/444]

Doc,.... to answer that one,... one would have to know the condition of the terrain to be traveled. When I lived in Cave Creek Az. and rode primarily on the Tonto National Forest ... it could take all day to ride to a place I could see with the naked eye, just 10 miles away.

Why?


Because I had to ride around hundreds of acres of impassable rock, washes and cactus.

I have been on ancient animal paths out there that were eventually used by and developed by traders and travelers that would make you dizzy do to the obstacles they had to circumvent.

Now,.... here in the wide open southwestern part of the state,... I ride 12 sections (12 sq. miles) of State Land out my back pasture gate. I can ride in any direction (360degrees) I choose. I can travel the same distance here,... that would have taken up in the Tonto,... ten times the travel time.


If there is a a good passable trail, and horse and rider were properly conditioned,... I would say possible. But, I would find the added inconvenience of a spare saddle horse more negative than positive. I train all my pack horses to ride as well as pack. If my riding mount comes up a little lame, I can switch out tack and keep going, if need be. Here in the dessert southwest, there is a point of diminished return concerning how much feed can be carried in the back country. Here, we do better by using the extra mount as a pack animal that could be ridden if needed.

Which opens the door in your scenario as to whether or not ALL the animals are trained well enough for such work,... and whether or not the riders are trained for such work. Can you ride your horse safely in unknown territory? Will your horse ride safely in unknown territory? Can YOU lead a pack horse through the wilds, safely? Can you ride and lead two pack horses in tandem through the wilds, safely? Are ALL these horses familiar with each other and trained to work together in such a scenario?


This list of "safety" preparations can go on and on,... before you can even think about loading them up in the trailer,... just conditioning animals for such a trip could take many months. If they are in relatively good shape to begin with. I hope I made my point.

[Don McDowell]

Yes you could do it, but you and the horses would have to be in pretty fair shape to start with, and it wouldn't be a 9-5 deal. You'ld be in the saddle by the time the sun breaks the horizon in the east, and you'll be rubbing the horses down in the last bits of twilight.

[gimdandy]

Rough terrain makes this really bad for the stock. In a have to yes , other wise no , I won't abuse my mules like that. Easier on the rider by far than the stock. I have put in long days before and really don't mind but I ride mules and they are lots smoother than most horses and my saddle tree fits both the mule and me. If I had to ride any of my horses ........no thanks. Your Question said 3 riders and a pack animal and 3 spares , yup doable . But the practicality is just as 76/444 says. For a trip such as this I'd have my vet kit ,shoeing kit,a few spare shoes , (more for the rough terrain scenario ) leather repair kit , 4# grain a day per animal , looks like we need 2 pack animals if you throw in bread and fixings and 3 bed rolls, ( I don't take grain usually when I pack unless it is late season elk hunt for snow and cold . Now how did they used to get by ? Well like I said they just got by. If an animal came up lame and it was have to get some where situation , you gonna be late and probably walking unless you took the spare rider.

[Buck Elliott]

Would it be unreasonable for three men on horseback, with spare saddle horses and a pack horse to make a 200 mile ride in less than a week? Even over some pretty rough terrain?

This would be no pleasure ride but a forced march, which relates to my earlier cavalry question.

A qualified YES... (or NO, depending on how you look at it...)

Been there -- done that, when we were scouting the Teton Wilderness area and Yellowstone Park for trails & suitable campsites, after the '88 fires. Two saddle horses for two riders, and two pack animals for grub & gear. Just over 210 miles in 6 days. Horse were picketed overnight on good grass, and grained morning & evening.

On a "regular" pack trip, we grazed the horses (25 -35 head...) two hours in the morning and two hours in the evening, grained them and made sure they had plenty water.
Horses and riders have to be in shape for it, though.

[Sarge]

I'd say it could be done but

a) It'd depend on the terrain,
b) availability of water,
and
c) I'd want a solid old range horse who could live on grass

Not doing it at my age unless somebody I cared about a WHOLE lot had their fat in the fire, at the other end.

[Doc Hudson]

More details:

Time : Second week of September, 1887
Place : Arizona Territory

Route: Florence to St. Johns, distance about 200 miles. The route is along Salt River as far as Cedar Creek, then up Cedar Creek Canyon and up the Mogollon Rim, then a hard ride to St. Johns. The announced intention was to set a record for the trip and "not spare the horses." Day one and two are hard riding days from before daylight to after dark. Days 3 and 4 are easier traveling daylight only travel. The remainder of the trip back to the hard riding of the beginning.

Following Salt River and Cedar Creek, water should be no problem. Assume the travelers have plenty of grain for the horses and are more intent on making time than preserving horseflesh.

So, would the trip be doale in a week or less along that route or will reades simply have to suffer the author's ignorance?

[Rusty]

Along these lines J.E.B. Stuart and his men made a famous ride into enemy held territory that was a pretty fast marathon. Anybody remember how far that one took them in the time allotted?

[octagon]

Doc: I will quote from a book written by my lovely wifes Grandpa, a Cavalryman...

"There was a Junior Polo Tour held under the auspices of the First Cavalry Division at Fort Bliss in June of 1922. The regiment entered a team, as did other regiments and organizations of the division. There were no funds available for the transportation of horses by rail, at a cost of perhaps two hundred dollars. Nor were there trucks available to transport them by road. So, the polo ponies were marched overland, a distance of some two hundred miles. This little polo detachment of 20 or so ponies accompanied by the communications platoons of the First and Tenth Calvary Regiments, which together formed the First Calvary Brigade at the time...Forage, rations and occasionally water were delivered at appropriate sidings along the El Paso and Southwestern Railroad for the ten day march. And to make it all worthwhile, the regimental team won the tournament against the favorites in Ft. Bliss. Then the same team won the Senior tournament, which was held that fall. (From: Twilight of the U.S. Cavalry 1917-1942 by Truscott)

[Doc Hudson]

Thanks Octagon, that was an interesting excerpt from General Truscott's book. But my scenario is a bit different. Those troopers gently pushed those polo ponies along at about 20 miles per day so they'd be in shape for a hell-for-leather game of polo at the end of the trip. My character doesn't much care if his horses are badly tuckeered at the end or the trip or not.

[gimdandy]

Don't know the terrain that you are speaking of but BUCK has already done this . Only difference is local , and I've been in several burn areas and it is unsafe with constantly falling trees even a year after the burn but lots of falling timber directly after the fire like he was , and besides that you are constantly going around downed timber and back tracking. Reading your situation and Bucks , Buck was much more grueling . Water and feed being equal (no way to qualify this that I can see)

[J35]

More details:

Time : Second week of September, 1887
Place : Arizona Territory

Route: Florence to St. Johns, distance about 200 miles. The route is along Salt River as far as Cedar Creek, then up Cedar Creek Canyon and up the Mogollon Rim, then a hard ride to St. Johns. The announced intention was to set a record for the trip and "not spare the horses." Day one and two are hard riding days from before daylight to after dark. Days 3 and 4 are easier traveling daylight only travel. The remainder of the trip back to the hard riding of the beginning.

Following Salt River and Cedar Creek, water should be no problem. Assume the travelers have plenty of grain for the horses and are more intent on making time than preserving horseflesh.

So, would the trip be doale in a week or less along that route or will reades simply have to suffer the author's ignorance?

I would be a little skeptical.

Florence is close to 1500 ft elevation , where ever they crossed the rim was probably in the neighborhood of 7000 to 9000 ft elevation and in between is a good 100 + miles of some of the roughest country you could possibly imagine, rough rocky mountainous broken country.

One thing is for certain they used the Salt river reference as a general direction, they were almost certain to have never rode with in 5 miles of the canyon , think Grand canyon on a little smaller scale, complete with all the side canyons, the only road that crosses the canyon today is 5 miles down and five miles up and it is steep and switch back city.

With all the up and down crossing canyons and MTNS you could probably double that 200 miles and not be to far off of actual miles traveled. Not to mention what all that up and down does to horse flesh compared to the flat.

From the rim to St Johns would be a little better going once you got down out of the pines and break out into the cedar country,but there are still many deep canyons with rim rock to cross and the land still has a lot of roll to it with plenty of rocks.

Have fun

[Doc Hudson]

I've seen Salt River Canyon! That switch-back road is breath-taking for more reasons than one. At every turn we looked out over the canyon and said "WOW!!" again and again. We were very near sensory overload by the time we reached the bottom and the drive up the other side was just about as impressive. (We weere headed north from Florence to Holbrook.)

If the Grand Canyon is more impressive than Salt River Canyon, I don't know if I could stand it.

OK, you've convinced me. Suggest me anothe route, one that avoids towns preferred. A route that is through wild country, rough but not impossible to ride hard and make good time from Florence to St. Johns.

[76/444]

Doc, Arizona is some of the meanest territory I have ever ridden, if not the meanest.... some of the most beautiful ,.... but, some of the MEANEST as well!!

Historically the Territory of Arizona didn't incorporate until 1863, and didn't become a state until 1912. There is a reason for that!

Phoenix wasn't incorporated until 1881.

The city of Tucson wasn't incorporated in 1940.

There are reasons for this !

If you are really serious about such a venture, really serious, ( and you do seem to be) my suggestion is to look into ancient maps made by the Spanish explorers who came into this part of the world when horse travel was all there was. This will relate some of the easiest trails available in this territory at that time which probably hasn't changed to this day, yet, at the same time some of toughest riding a man and horse could ever ride. From such maps you will not only realize the limited choices to travel such a distance, but, when cross referenced with modern maps, you will see how this country has changed and developed since then. Cities and towns just didn't plop down on a whim, ( some did but are ghost towns now) they all sprouted up due to water and travel convenience. To find an ancient trail of travel as you seek without a development in your path is going to be a task,... if possible at all, in my opinion. My guess is you had better be ready for some road/highway crossing/travel and better have animals trained to do such.

You may also want to Google "long riders", and get an idea of some of the trails they may have used, as well as realizing the infrastructure sometimes needed for such ridding.

This is no slight undertaking! And I hope you can shoe a horse well!!

Best of luck!


p.s. I would also suggest you reconsider the mind set that goes along with this statement of yours.

"A route that is through wild country, rough but not impossible to ride hard and make good time from Florence to St. Johns."

[76/444]

As for MuLES,... I don't think there would be any better critter for what you plan on. Especially for pack'n. And yup, putters are better tempered,... here is a take off on a well known video I couldn't find. Just still pics but you get the idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLqI2bjz ... re=related

Now I read that some claim it a hoax,... that the lion was dead,... but I'll bet my last dollar that Mule didn't think so! And probably wouldn't give a dam if it was!

========================

Here is a little diddy on what back country travel on a mule COULD be like traveling from the desert washes to the high country forests. I am not a MULE MAN,.... wish I was!! My trail pard is,.... has probably the best pack'n ridd'n Mule in the state of Az.,... he does stuff like this with his mule all the time. WITH A 200 LB. PACK when need be!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1sfDlLl ... re=related

Mules rule the Arizona back country!!!!

[Doc Hudson]

Doc, Arizona is some of the meanest territory I have ever ridden, if not the meanest.... some of the most beautiful ,.... but, some of the MEANEST as well!!

Historically the Territory of Arizona didn't incorporate until 1863, and didn't become a state until 1912. There is a reason for that!

Phoenix wasn't incorporated until 1881.

The city of Tucson wasn't incorporated in 1940.

There are reasons for this !

If you are really serious about such a venture, really serious, ( and you do seem to be) my suggestion is to look into ancient maps made by the Spanish explorers who came into this part of the world when horse travel was all there was. This will relate some of the easiest trails available in this territory at that time which probably hasn't changed to this day, yet, at the same time some of toughest riding a man and horse could ever ride. From such maps you will not only realize the limited choices to travel such a distance, but, when cross referenced with modern maps, you will see how this country has changed and developed since then. Cities and towns just didn't plop down on a whim, ( some did but are ghost towns now) they all sprouted up due to water and travel convenience. To find an ancient trail of travel as you seek without a development in your path is going to be a task,... if possible at all, in my opinion. My guess is you had better be ready for some road/highway crossing/travel and better have animals trained to do such.

You may also want to Google "long riders", and get an idea of some of the trails they may have used, as well as realizing the infrastructure sometimes needed for such ridding.

This is no slight undertaking! And I hope you can shoe a horse well!!

Best of luck!


p.s. I would also suggest you reconsider the mind set that goes along with this statement of yours.

"A route that is through wild country, rough but not impossible to ride hard and make good time from Florence to St. Johns."

I am not planning to make a hurried ride from Florene to St. johns. I'm not enough of a horseman to even plan such a trip.

The trip is part of a story I've been working on off and on for years. The trip from St. Johns to Florence was very leisurely and took near two weeks of uneventful travel with very few details given. The return trip is planned and begun with my hero in a killing rage. Such rudimentary plans as existed were pretty well stated here:

Commodore Perry Owens and I have some things to discuss when I get back. And I don’t plan to spare the horses on the way back.”

When I specified a "rough" route, I should have said " rough route is acceptable so long as it is not impossible and it is fast. it was not my plan to have my travelers encounter any natural dangers that experienced desert travelers could not handle as a matter of routine experience. Danger on the trip will be in the form of enemies, and I don't mean Apache. The story is set after Geronimo is "safely rotting in prison in Florida." I know there weere some broncos actively raiding till after the turn of the century but they play no part in the story.

I've lost my maps in the Great Confuser Crash of '09, so if you have any links for late 19th Century Maps, I'd appreciate them.

Is it making any more sense now?

[76/444]

Oh, Yah,.... much more sense. But, I think you should come on out and take a few all day rides in all the varied terrain a trip like that would entail. Just to get in touch with artistic reality, rather than license! It would open your eyes!

[KirkD]

Instead of bringing spare horses along with you, is there a possibility of swapping for fresh horses at locations along the way?

[preventec47]

[quote="76/444"] I think you should come on out and take a few all day rides in all the varied terrain a trip like that would entail. Just to get in touch with artistic reality: It would open your eyes![/quote]
========
NOT if you are not a seasoned horseman at the time !
every 8 or 10 years I'll go somewhere or be invited
for for an afternoon ride and I am cripple for a week
and my butt is so raw I cant sit in a chair of any kind.
If I am never saddle sore again for the rest of my life
it will be just fine by me.

The mention of mules being smoother to ride sure sounded
good to me. Why would that be ? ?
Also, What is a gaited horse ? That is something to do with
smoothness isnt it ?

[Buck Elliott]

Mules have a completely different gait. Watch one move some time, and you;ll notice it right off.

BTW, If your butt is sore, your stirrups are too long, and/or you're sitting on IT rather than on your inside thighs, which is where you should be sitting.

[Doc Hudson]

Instead of bringing spare horses along with you, is there a possibility of swapping for fresh horses at locations along the way?

I actually gave that some thought then rejected it. My hero is pretty attached to his horse since they've been together for a number of years.

[Doc Hudson]

Oh, Yah,.... much more sense. But, I think you should come on out and take a few all day rides in all the varied terrain a trip like that would entail. Just to get in touch with artistic reality, rather than license! It would open your eyes!

Unless I could find someone with a string or Percherons or Shires broken to saddle, I'm afraid the SPCA would be after me and the owner both for animal cruelty if i made a horse carry me all day.

[76/444]

I think you should come on out and take a few all day rides in all the varied terrain a trip like that would entail. Just to get in touch with artistic reality: It would open your eyes!

========
NOT if you are not a seasoned horseman at the time !
every 8 or 10 years I'll go somewhere or be invited
for for an afternoon ride and I am cripple for a week
and my butt is so raw I cant sit in a chair of any kind.
If I am never saddle sore again for the rest of my life
it will be just fine by me.

The mention of mules being smoother to ride sure sounded
good to me. Why would that be ? ?
Also, What is a gaited horse ? That is something to do with
smoothness isnt it ?

Mules are smoother for the same reason gaited horses are smoother,.... genetics!

A "gaited horse" is a horse with genetics that has an extra gait.

A typical horse has 5 gaits,...walk, trot, canter, lope, gallop. Most of my old time cow poke buddies say they don't call the walk a gait,...or, that the lope and the canter are the same. So let me qualify something before I get started,... that all below is just what I have personally learned over my entire life with horses. And others folk's opinions will differ.

I guarantee it!!!!!!!!!!!

Some GAITED horse only have two gaits, some three, some four or five and some six. It really boils down to the genetics of its ancestry. And, just to get you confused real eary in this diatribe,... GAITED horses can have a TROT gait, or not, can have a canter gait, or not, and , can have a gallop gait or not. Genetics dictates all!!

I will explain what the smooth gait of the gaited horse is , but, it probably won't do you any good. I bought gaited breeding stock and was a breeder with my first foal on he ground before my HORSES explained it to me, so I could understand. Until that moment I had "GAITED BREEDERS AN GAITED GURUS" explaining it to me on what seemed to be a weekly schedule for around 4 or 5 years without success. Once my horses explained it to me I honestly fell over laughing. I expected it to be so complicated that I blinded myself from understanding it for so many years, I felt like an idiot.

Bottom line, (you ready) ,.... the GAIT is classified as a "four beat lateral leg sequence". Now, that is for the majority of GAITED stock,... then there is the "four beat diagonal leg sequence which is more commonly known as the Fox Trot.

The more common "four beat lateral gait",... is called a MULTITUDE of things across the country and outside of this country. this is where the origin of my original confusion was cultivated and is still the basis for confusion in people who have been ,... quote/unquote,... gaited horsemen all their lives!

Peruvian Paso folks call this four beat lateral gait the LARGO, folks from Virginia area call it the RACK, Icelandic folks call it the TOLT, ancient historic Narragansett horsemen really confused things for folks of today by calling it a PACE, Tennessee Walker folks call it a RUNNING WALK, some southern no names called the AMBLERS, I call my Ramblers,... and the Neze Perz bred Appaloosa was called a INDIAN SHUFFLER. The list goes on from there, but, I think I made my point.


Bottom line, the "four beat lateral gait" is what the western folk more commonly referred to as the "SINGLE FOOT GAIT". And the single foot gait is the four beat lateral gait and it is as simple to understand as falling off a log if you don't get caught up in all the Gaited Guru Snake Oil salesmen and saleswomen who have their own personal agenda in either books to sell, lessons to sell , clinics to sell, or whatever.




And here its is.





All four legged creatures on God's green earth with four legs, ... from cats to elephants,... walk in the same foot fall sequence!!! I will simplify this by picking the right side of the animal over explaining it from the left,... but this is interchangeable.

The left rear leg will lift off the ground and before it touches the ground it will trigger the right front leg to lift off. As the front right leg lifts off the left rear will be triggered to lift off and as the right front touches down after the right rear, the left front will lift off and touch down after the left rear.

Hence , you have all four legs moving independently, creating a sound on hard dirt roads that sounds like,.... packa,packa, packa, packa,... packa, packa, packa, packa. Or, if you prefer,... one, two, three, four,....one, two, three , four. Hence the term single foot, or, one foot hitting the ground at a moment in movement.

Now, to confuse the hell out of you,.... there are different genetics at play that cause some gaited horses to have a different CADENCE than others. Creating a four beat gait that sounds like,....packa,packa,......packa, packa.... packa, packa,....packa, packa. This is called a broken four beat lateral. This sound is caused by the two legs on one side falling faster than evenly and creating a pause before the left two legs fall.


Simple huh?

Bottom line, watch your dog, your cat, your horse, your pig, goat, sheep,... I don't care, they all do the same.


Now,... take that four beat lateral gait that falls one foot onto the ground at a time and what you get is a very smooth ride compared to the trot of a non-gaited horse, like a Q'ter horse, which has a foot fall sequence called a TWO BEAT DIAGONAL. the two beat diagonal is a foot fall sequence of,........

.......... left rear foot (or right, which ever you want to start with) and the diagonal front right foot move simultaneously off the ground and simultaneously touch back down, while the right rear and left front do the same. this causes a TWO beat,.... or,..... packa,....... packa.

That is why it is bouncy, and rough. And that is the difference between the two genetic types. And that us why you can sit your seat in the saddle of a gaited horse. And ride it like your favorite arm chair.


I'm gonna go soak my two index fingers in ice water now.


later.

[KirkD]

[Unless I could find someone with a string or Percherons or Shires broken to saddle, I'm afraid the SPCA would be after me and the owner both for animal cruelty if i made a horse carry me all day.

Percherons! I think a Howda might be a better idea for one of those, and a lot more comfortable, especially if a fellow had an E-Z-boy reclining chair installed under the canopy. I don't know what one of those boys eats per day, though, and I think y'all would be limited to a walk.

[Buck Elliott]

Instead of bringing spare horses along with you, is there a possibility of swapping for fresh horses at locations along the way?

I actually gave that some thought then rejected it. My hero is pretty attached to his horse since they've been together for a number of years.

Your hero's kinda anal, ain't he...? The object is to get from Point A to point B, and if he ain't gonna spare the horse(s), he oughtta do it on some other nag...

Just my $0.02 worth...

[76/444]

Properly matched rider weight to horse is good policy, but isn't the deciding factor all the time.

I have seen 200 to 225 lb. men with no sense of balance lame a horse in a couple hours, just walking.

Where as, I have seem a 250+, big +, lady with excellent balance go all day on a horse that I truly felt sorry for,... without a hitch.

[Buck Elliott]

We hired a cook one summer -- loaded everything up and headed into the wilderness for the first trip of the season -- she rode like a bag full of bowling balls -- no balance whatsoever -- sored up 3 horses so bad in five days, they were on the "sick & disabled" list the rest of the season -- we hired a replacement cook.

[76/444]

One last thought. Not all trotting horses are rough. I had a registered Spanish Mustang mare that had the most fantastic rubber band jog/trot. Just the nicest little jog that I could sit and she could go all day in. My trail pard had a retired Q'ter halter horse that was even nicer,.... a lot nicer!

On the other hand, not all gaited horses are smooth. Gaited horses like any other horse, need training to do what they are bred for,... to the best manner they are able!

Like a race horse that needs to be trained to run properly, to get the best it has!

Specific muscle groups need to be exercised and developed just like any other athlete, to do their best.

[J35]

Hey doc I just had a thought, they probably had routes worked out decent enough for wagons between the Forts so if that is true your Hero's should be able to make good time all the way from Florence to San Carlos to Ft Apache and if that's the case they might just be able to make the trip in six days more so if their dash took place around the full moon.



Now I am wondering if the pack animal would be a asset or a liability ?



Have fun

[20cows]

Peruvian Paso folks call this four beat lateral gait the LARGO, folks from Virginia area call it the RACK, Icelandic folks call it the TOLT, ancient historic Narragansett horsemen really confused things for folks of today by calling it a PACE, Tennessee Walker folks call it a RUNNING WALK, some southern no names called the AMBLERS, I call my Ramblers,... and the Neze Perz bred Appaloosa was called a INDIAN SHUFFLER. The list goes on from there, but, I think I made my point.

Ok, I guess that goes along with what I call the running walk on this one. I inherited him when my brother (pictured) passed away.

[76/444]

Nice Single Foot gait you got going on there 20cows!!! Or, a dead walk,... you tell me?


But, being an Appy, (unless he is a WalkaLoosa) that would be called the Indian Shuffle, where I come from, if you are going at any speed faster than a slow walk!


Perfect pic to validate my explanation on how the right rear picks up and triggers the right front to pick up, before it sets back down,... and so on,.... thanks!!!!!!!!!



ps. I can see from the slight lift in his tail base that he is a natural gaiter, for sure. Which also , usually, signifies you are going into a single foot and not at a walk. But I have seen gaiters that do that at the walk as well. Probably a nice smooth ride on that one.


Oh, yah, .... nice blanket !!!

[Doc Hudson]

Is a single-foot gait limited to a Walk or is the gait applicable to all speeds

[76/444]

The Single-Foot gait has the EXACT foot fall sequence of the WALK,.... so, in a still pic, it is almost impossible to tell which gait is being done. As explained above.

Basically, the Single-Foot gait is a fast walk. Tenn Walker actually call it the Running walk. As I described above. Single foot Gaited stock travel at a wide range of speeds, according to genetic inheritance and , or, training. Some can go quit a ways between 5 to 9 mph. Most are more comfortable between 3 to 5 mph. Some faster. Some VERY FAST like close to 20mph, and slick as snot on a brass door knob!