OT-AR-15

[shooter]

I was just reading the stickie'd post "Fear Purchasing" on the Politics forum. I ran across one of O.S.O.K.'s posts about Del-Ton's rifle kits. They come with a complete upper, a lower parts kit for a stripped lower, and a buttstock for $465. I can get a stripped lower for around $100. I'm not a big fan of AR's, but I figure they're not a bad gun to have if worse comes to worse. Ammo is relatively cheap and readily available. I have an SKS, the only semi-auto I own, and if I pull the trigger (no pun intended) on this AR, I figure that no matter the situation I can always pick up extra ammo and have a gun to shoot it with. If I can get a complete AR for under $600, I figure that's a pretty good way to go considering some of the outrageous prices I've seen lately.

[Hillbilly]

AR prices are starting to moderate back to pre-paranoia prices. Back-orders are starting to fill and guns are on the shelf going unsold in most retail settings.

Building a AR from stock parts is a fun project. If you have a little knowlege, skill and time you can build a very nice rifle for a "few dollars more" than a price leader retail gun.

That being said... a very good mid grade factory AR can be found for $800-900 again.

You cant go wrong either way. I am still waiting for the surplus ammo situation to improve. There is not a lot out there... and prices are still a little out of whack for brass- cased 5.56x45.

[cnjarvis]

Just be careful, those EBR's are ADDICTIVE! I bought one two years ago for similar reasons and built one a year after that. I just finished ordering an upgrade to my optic for the first one and I'm already trying to decide what the next build will be...

My Bushy ORC is now my go-to coyote rifle.

Del-Ton is good, so is J&T/DSA.

ETA: Make sure that the kit you order includes the bolt carrier group (BCG) as some kits don't automatically include one. If it doesn't, expect to pay $120+/- for one from the vendor.

[MrMurphy]

For the money, get yourself a S&W M&P15.

I'm in the AR business, and for under a grand for a basic gun, it will do everything you need to do, RELIABLY. A Bravo Company upper/lower will do well for a hard use defensive gun, and cost a bit more. A Colt 6920 or 6940 will do also.

[shooter]

Just be careful, those EBR's are ADDICTIVE! I bought one two years ago for similar reasons and built one a year after that. I just finished ordering an upgrade to my optic for the first one and I'm already trying to decide what the next build will be...

ETA: Make sure that the kit you order includes the bolt carrier group (BCG) as some kits don't automatically include one. If it doesn't, expect to pay $120+/- for one from the vendor.

That's my problem, I'm addicted to guns, period. I've held off for a good long while and not bought an AR. My buddy has one, and just went and bought a new upper for his. I like them because they are so customizable and all of the other reasons I stated in my original post, but I'm not a big fan of shooting them. I like 'em ok, but they just don't DO IT for me like some other guns I've shot. I actually like shooting my SKS better than any AR I've shot. I love levers, and bolt actions are great for hunting or shooting from a bench, but for some reason semi autos just aren't my cup o' tea. Don't know why. I'm sure as I get to fooling around with it I will be addicted soon enough.

The kit I'm planning on ordering comes with a fully assembled upper, bcg and all.

[Streetstar]

BRD is a real problem for me as well (Black rifle disease). Its not enough for me to have an M-4gery, AR pistol, and a retro with an M-16 upper, --- now i am aquiring parts for a retro CAR style carbine build and have enough excess inventory to make a good start on a heavy barrelled varmint type rig

They are fun , and as with leverguns and Lays potato chips --- its hard to stop at just one.

I typically will pick up a 400 round box of XM-193 every few paychecks for blasting ammo. I am building up a modest stockpile this way without hurting my wallet too much (sometimes i can only get to the range once a month) --- but its not uncommon to put a couple of full mags downrange in a session , (and some people shoot much more than this)

Naturally i save all my brass, and will likely load up a case or two if i get bored enough in the coming weeks -- but its slow going on a single stage. Have considered investing in a 650 dillon for the AR and 45 Colt, and keeping the single stage around for the big rifles.

[WyrTwister]

I was just reading the stickie'd post "Fear Purchasing" on the Politics forum. I ran across one of O.S.O.K.'s posts about Del-Ton's rifle kits. They come with a complete upper, a lower parts kit for a stripped lower, and a buttstock for $465. I can get a stripped lower for around $100. I'm not a big fan of AR's, but I figure they're not a bad gun to have if worse comes to worse. Ammo is relatively cheap and readily available. I have an SKS, the only semi-auto I own, and if I pull the trigger (no pun intended) on this AR, I figure that no matter the situation I can always pick up extra ammo and have a gun to shoot it with. If I can get a complete AR for under $600, I figure that's a pretty good way to go considering some of the outrageous prices I've seen lately.

I gave ~ $ 500.00 to my door for a DEL-TON kit . Light weight barrel 16" , A2 sights , collapsible stock .

~ $ 100.00 - $ 150.00 for a lower , locally , out the door .

Plus tooling .

I think this is about typical .

God bless
Wyr

[WyrTwister]

AR prices are starting to moderate back to pre-paranoia prices. Back-orders are starting to fill and guns are on the shelf going unsold in most retail settings.

Building a AR from stock parts is a fun project. If you have a little knowlege, skill and time you can build a very nice rifle for a "few dollars more" than a price leader retail gun.

That being said... a very good mid grade factory AR can be found for $800-900 again.

You cant go wrong either way. I am still waiting for the surplus ammo situation to improve. There is not a lot out there... and prices are still a little out of whack for brass- cased 5.56x45.

Prices are still out of whack for use reloaders , too .

God bless
Wyr

[win7094M1]

Picked up my pre-ban A2 Colt about four years ago - the nearby nuclear plant traded these in on new Bushmasters and I got this one for $599. I have enjoyed it and wish I had more time to shoot it more and the time and $ to take a training course with it. My agency does not issue or authorize any rifles, so this would be strictly on my own dime.
BTW, Would it be possible to attach a different upper since this Colt has the screw at the hinge and not the push pin like the M16s?

[John in MS]

"BTW, Would it be possible to attach a different upper since this Colt has the screw at the hinge and not the push pin like the M16s?"

Colt, in their infinite wisdom (sarcasm mode ON), went through a bunch of permutations with their front pivot pin setups on AR's over the years. The short answer to your question is, yes, you can put on different uppers. The longer answer is that how you do it depends on what era Colt AR you have.

Many pre-ban Colts have the "large pivot pin" lowers/uppers, in which the front pivot pin is significantly larger than the rear takedown pin. On GI-spec rifles, both are the same diameter, so that makes it easy to spot what you have in the way of Colts.

An aside: If you fool with Colt/AR's much, you will hear people talk about "large pin/small pin" but they are most often talking about Colt's other ... a-hem... foible. That's when they changed the hammer/trigger pins from standard (GI Spec) "small pin diameter" to Colt-proprietary "large pin diameter" fire control parts. This made it impossible to use mil-surp and other manufacturer's parts as replacements in Colt lowers, and during the time they had the monopoly on large-pin hammer/trigger and related parts, their parts prices were astronomical. (Yeah, I'm one of the ones who got hammered by that little ploy.) As soon as Bush-hamster came out with replacement large-pin fire control parts for Colts, the monopoly was broken and Colt could no longer hose its customers at will. But, I digress....

So, it's important when discussing "large-pin/small-pin" with other AR shooters to know whether they mean fire control parts (for Colts) or pivot pin diameter.

From here forward, I'll be talking only about the front pivot pin size.

Assuming you have a small pivot pin lower, you are very much good to go. (I will assume you want to install standard, GI-style small front pivot pin uppers as made by everyone except early Colts.) Small-pin uppers will fit using your original front screw without modifications. If your Colt has the early "slab side" configuration lower, without the raised "fence" that goes around the mag release button and holds the detent pin/spring to retain a GI-style front take-down pin, you are stuck using the "Colt Screw" (how appropos...) to hold them together.

Your other option would be an after-market push-pin that has its own, internal, captured spring/ball detent, which allows quick disassembly w/o tools. That's the original type setup ArmaLite used in the first iterations of the AR15. Unfortunately, it's not a good system, as the separate pins are prone to wear and loss, so I don't recommend them. The Colt Screw front takedown pin assembly isn't perfect either ; I personally know of 4 cases in which these broke during normal use (yes, really!), so it wouldn't hurt to lay in a spare or 2.

If your lower has the small front pivot pin diameter and the raised "fence" but still has a takedown screw in the front, you will likely find that Colt never drilled the hole for the GI style takedown pin's spring/detent. If so, you can have that hole drilled and convert your small-pin lower to GI specs. This allows installation of standard front pin parts and you can then swap uppers with the push of a pin. IIRC, Colt did drill a few of their raised-fence/small pin lowers, but didn't install the spring/detent, so you could "luck out" and find the hole already there, awaiting only $4.00 worth of parts to make your rifle work like all the other AR maker's.

If you have the large front pivot pin, you can get an "offset pin" from Bushmaster or other suppliers that allows installing a small pin (GI spec) upper on a large pin lower. They can be a little tricky to use at first, so go slowly and feel for unusual tension/resistance when closing up your rifle the first time or 2 you use one of these. Again, it would not hurt to get a spare of these in case yours breaks in use.

In the sad case that you find yourself stuck putting your Colt large pivot pin upper onto a small front pin lower, there is a bushing assembly available from Bushmaster, as well, that allows this. IIRC, they call it a "reverse offset" pin or assembly. Their techs can help you get the right part.

If you have a large front pin lower and want large front pin upper receivers to interchange using Colt's original large pin/screw assembly, ArmaLite has made large-pin upper receivers just for that purpose. (I don't know if they still offer them, but if not, someone else may.) Prior to that, used large-pin Colt uppers sold at a big premium as they were much in demand. (This was years ago; many more people now have standard, non-Colt lowers or Colt's later small pivot pin lowers and have no problems, so demand has lessened.) I have seen 2 small-pivot pin uppers that were machined out to take the Colt large front pivot pins, and I DO NOT recommend this, as it leaves very little metal remaining around the pivot pin hole. IIRC, one later broke in normal use.

While the above may be potentially confusing, at least I didn't get into the problems Colt engendered with their "blocked" lowers (you can easily tell if you have one -- a weird block inserted behind the hammer says "COLT" and makes it hard to fit match triggers, etc.), or some of their other genius ideas, like the stupid, el-cheapo black plastic, solid buffer they used in commercial rifles for a while. This pure cost-savings measure lacked the proper internal, moveable counter-weights that have been an integral part of the AR15 system since about 1966. (At Colt's Law Enforcement Armorer's School, our instructor pulled one of these out, showed it to us, and said "the first thing you do if you see one of these is throw it away and install a GI-spec buffer"... but, again, I digress...)

For all my kvetching about the weird Colt variations/hassles over the years, I will say that otherwise their parts, etc. have been of top quality. Colts as a species are very highly respected for their reliability/durability by the instructors at Thunder Ranch (Texas), where they saw well over 20,000 rounds a week fired through various AR's during Urban Rifle classes, several times a year, over many years. The Colts stood up and performed well, while most other brands didn't have nearly the reputation for reliability that Colt enjoyed.

One quick "lesson learned", if I may (heck, I can't stop myself...) I once watched a law enforcement officer's DUTY RIFLE become disabled during a TR UR class, because he'd installed an ever-so-cool "trashtical" "ergonomic" pistol grip made of soft rubbery material with the all-important finger grooves on his rifle. He laid it out in the sun on Black Range where it baked in the Texas sun for maybe 20 minutes while we had a short block of instruction. It then promptly MELTED and came apart, and his rifle was down, just like that. (The safety pin/detent is captured by the pistol grip...)

Luckily, I had a worn, scratched, Viet Nam-era, GI-spec M16 pistol grip on my back-up rifle (never needed, by the way) and lent it to him for the remainder of the course. It wasn't fancy, not "Ninja Demon of Darkness" fare, but it worked just fine. I always advise folks to think of that lesson whenever they are tempted to "pimp up" their AR's with aftermarket gewgaws and gimcracks, especially if the rifle could ever be used in a self-defense role. "GI spec" may not be "high speed, low drag," but utter reliability is durn hard to beat. Gene Stoner's original concept of the AR15 as a LIGHT, HANDY rifle seems to be forgotten these days in the headlong rush to see who can hang the most c&*p off their AR's, but there's a lot to be said for the original, lightweight M16A1 configuration as a fast-handling, easily carried, practical field rifle!

Hope this helps,

John

[Sixgun]

Yep, I Love my leverguns but "highly like " my AR's. ----------Sixgun

Not mine, my buddys---Fun switch--3 way
,

My Colt 6940