OT - Is the .32 Mag REALLY a good Defensive Gun?

[piller]

... if you are using a smaller caliber... shoot till the target STOPS! Next.....

I think that sounds like good advice. I do not want to kill anyone, and I will stop shooting when the perpetrator stops attacking. If he does not stop until he is dead, then that is his choice, not mine. I am shooting to stop. Because of that, I happen to choose guns which I can handle, conceal, and shoot with enough skill that I feel confident in protecting my family and myself.

[Nixterdemus]

I see the 38 corto has reared it's ugly head.

I'd take the .22 LR out of a rifle over that any day of the week.

Narurally, I can't swing the rifle or hide it as easily.

[madman4570]

Guys,
I hate to say it but if the bad guy is armed also -----90% of us will be killed in many situations.
Why, most of us will hesitate(for that tiny fraction of a second)you forget these BAD guys won't be shooting you with a shootout at 20 feet. If you ever realize they are brandishing their weapon (probably too late)Big thing now is just to pop you!
They will not for one split second wait.(they will pull it and bang instantly)

For those of you who have ever been in that bad place where you are packing and feel those bad ones might give you some conflict, then you notice as one bends over and you see HIS weapon stuck in the back of his pants knows what that is.

The majority of the people intend those tiny guns to prevent a couple rednecks pounding on you or wife,or maybe if one starts to pull a knife?
But the majority of GOOD people will hesitate for an instant and with a real BAD guy that instant can get you killed. Somtimes carrying might be worse for the untrained! and really how many are really trained???

So after that rant, yes I still somtimes carry and yes the .327 would be great.
The 9mm is not the 9mm of old though.With the new components,to push a 115gr @1400fps out of a 4"
pistol and have 16rds or more makes the 4" .357 not such a big step above.I have got to think that type 9mm ammo will seal the deal!

[piller]

That comes down to mindset. Are you willing to stop someone, even if it means their death? Unless you can answer this with an unhesitating YES, then you might need to think about it at home a while before you go out. Mindset is important.

[madman4570]

That comes down to mindset. Are you willing to stop someone, even if it means their death? Unless you can answer this with an unhesitating YES, then you might need to think about it at home a while before you go out. Mindset is important.

Spot On!

[KirkD]

Mindset is crucial. That is where reading actual reports, analyzing actual videos, and running scenarios over again in your mind so that if things happen, you will already have decided how you will react, is so important. When there is no time to think through a decision, it can be crucial to have already made the decision long before you ever found yourself in that situation. As I said before, even though I'm just an armchair opinion-giver (and I hope to stay that way when it comes to shoot-outs), I have made a lot of decisions already for general classes and categories of situations I pray I'm never in. As the primary protector of my family, I have run a lot of scenarios over and over again in my mind so that I can react quickly and with purpose if something bad ever happens. It helps, sometimes, to be a pre-programmed machine so that if things go wrong, you automatically react accordingly. When we are out in public or in the wilderness, I am very aware of my surroundings and, if I see something that needs to be avoided or thought through, I'll do it, rather than hope for the best.

Part of advance decision making is to decide if you are prepared to kill another person. It wasn't good enough just to teach my wife how to use our Springfield Armory 45 ACP if she was not prepared to kill. I asked her specifically if she would actually shoot another person. I did not ask this question at the range, but during a quiet evening at home when shooting was the furthest thing from her mind. Without a moment's hesitation, and with feeling, she said emphatically, "I will defend my children!" For me, that was a better answer than simply 'yes', because it has a powerful driving force and reason behind it. The timing of the question showed me the decision was already made in a situation that came totally out of left field. Not only has the decision to kill another person under certain circumstances already been made, but the reason to do so is already front and center. All the brain has to do is process 'family in danger! Start firing at threat!'.

Another decision that has to be made in advance is the decision to keep firing at the target even after you are hit and fading out. I have already assumed I will be hit and taking more hits (worst case scenario). I have already assumed that I will not survive the shootout, so I had best focus on dealing with the threat as long as I am conscious and can lift my gun. I have already decided I will ignore any hits I take and keep 100% focused on shooting at the threat. In my armchair opinion, people who don't think they are going to get hit and die are unprepared. Of course, if I come out alive and unscathed, that is a bonus. This brings me to my last opinion .....

Prepare for worst case scenarios, not just best-case scenarios. Neutralizing someone with a shot in the face with a light handgun is a best-case scenario.

[madman4570]

Well said Kirk!

[rimrock]

With advances in bullet manufacturing, I do currently believe the .327Mag with the right bullet can serve some people as an adequate defensive round. If I have time to choose a defensive gun, I want my .444 lever as I know it will impart serious hurt on a BG right now. But if a handgun is what I must use, then I like larger caliber to increase my chances of stopping the BG who is dancing around. It's not so much of a power factor as it is a diameter factor. All things being equal, a little larger bullet can nick an artery when a smaller one might not. Of course, I hope I never face this situation.

[madman4570]

rimrock,

If that .444 don't do the BG, that's one bad dude!

[Leverdude]

I think some are confusing the .32 H&R which more closely approximates a .38 Special and the .327 Federal which bumps up power level to the .357 Mag level. I think that the recoil consideration is important to some folks. Very important. One can put 6 rounds in a 5-shot .38 Special cylinder. Some consider that worthwhile for the same energy level as the .38 Special. If it was what I had I'd use it.

I have a Single-Six .32 H&R and I like it. Seems to be a great "trail" gun.

Say Hobie, how does one, ". . . put 6 rounds in a 5-shot .38 Special cylinder. . . " anyway??

I think he meant that guns like Rugers SP101 that are 5 shooters with a 38 are 6 shooters with the 32. I'm not certain I buy it being on par with a 357 though. Its ballistics seem on par with a 32/20 and not many consider it in the same league with a 357.

That said I carry a 9mm mostly or a 380 occasionally & dont feel unprotected.

[Bogie35]

I'm with Kirk. Training and preparation are more important than caliber. His posts here are magnificent!

As far as caliber choice, a larger caliber will leave a bigger hole, provided it penetrates deeply enough. If you're attempting to stop an attack from a man who's not actually attacking you, then a 22LR will be plenty. But, if you are attempting to stop a criminal-minded freak who's tweaked on meth and trying to kill you for his next score, then you need more gun. My vote goes for something in the range of 44 Special, 45 Colt, or 45ACP placed center of mass using standard loads. Big diameter, expanding bullet, appropriate penetration, and tolerable recoil.

However, from an armchair perspective, cop shootouts may not be representative of what a common citizen would encounter. From what I've read, criminals are more likely to call off the crime once the shooting starts, when all they stand to lose is something they are trying to steal from you. Whereas, when up against the cops, they stand to lose things that are already theirs, like freedom and/or life, so it takes more to stop them.

I hope I'm never tested.

bogie

[L_Kilkenny]

I also liked Kirk's post's. I figure if I can miss a pheasant at 20 yards with a 12ga under "hunting pressures" I have a good chance at missin a BG at 20 feet with a handgun under "life or death pressures". I think I'll just avoid the situation if at all possible.

LK

(P.S. I still woundn't feel under gunned with a .32M though, just scared as hell)

[Rexster]

I have used the .357 Magnum, with devastating effect, for defense. When I first started policin', though, in 1984, I was a disciple of Col. Cooper and other believers in big bores, so I mostly carried .41 and up, through most of the 1980's, up to 1993. (mostly .41 mag and .45 ACP) By the '90's, though, I knew that while Big Boredom was not incorrect, it was not the only way, and during an interim between autoloaders, I felt comfortable enough with the .357 to carry my GP100. The GP100 had been a fun/field gun for me, already, but then it was tested on the street in the ultimate way, in my hands.

So, no, I am not excited by the .327 Federal Mag for defense, nor the .32 H&R wannabe mag before it. But, I do have a much-liked 4" SP101 in .32 H&R, and if I just happened to have it handy when a bad guy attacked, I would not drop it and surrender. No, a hole leaking blood is a hole leaking blood. I would, however, prefer that others be the guinea pigs/lab rats for the defensive use of the .327 Federal Magnum. Until then, I will consider it a sporting cartridge. I may try it myself, for sporting purposes.

Similarly, I waited until some real humans had been shot with the .40 S&W before I was comfortable carrying it on the street. Thankfully, others were willing to be beta testers in large numbers, including some police agencies who keep stats, and whose employee unions would make much noise if the officers were not happy with their new guns and ammo. I doubt the new .32 will be used nearly as much on the street as the .40, which quickly grew to dominate domestic law enforcement. It is the standard duty pistol cartridge for my employer, a big-city PD, though I could keep carrying my "grandfathered" 1911s until I semi-voluntarily got with the program.

[JohndeFresno]

I have used the .357 Magnum, with devastating effect, for defense. When I first started policin', though, in 1984, I was a disciple of Col. Cooper and other believers in big bores...

Thanks, Rexster.

This gets to the heart of what I was posting this thread for. I'm still a big bore aficianado, and my research shows a definite correlation between final diameter of a bullet that hits the target and major incapacitation or at least quick cessation of hostilities. That is my definition of a defensive round. Killing rounds don't necessarily apply. In my area, the .22 LR is frequently used to dispatch cattle as noted above; but I've not met any gang-bangers yet who stand by as one holds a firearm up to the dead center of their head and pulls the trigger, as with cattle slaughter.

As for the research: The Sanow charts are quite useful but they are still heavily disputed; you can see a few goofy negative figures there that don't make any sense.

But in the region where I worked for many years, Fresno, the city and county rangemasters kept statistics on officer related shooting incidents (of which there have been many). Acknowledging Madman4570's post that bullet construction has changed radically since the revolver days, the evidence is still undeniable that the number of one-shot stops rose dramatically when the Fresno area officers switched from the hollowpoint 9's to .45's and .40's. Usually, a shot from a .4 caliber drops the suspect or stops him here, immediately. In contrast, there are several recorded incidents where the bad guy absorbed many 9mm caliber rounds and kept firing or advancing.

Piller is absolutely dead on about "mindset" - one friend and partner was ambushed and shot in the leg with a .357, in fact somewhat crippled for life from that devastating hollowpoint; but he remained calm, kept firing at the bush where the the round came from and chased off the ambusher, stayed on the radio to call for help and alert the authorities of the suspect, and stayed alive, despite heavy blood loss. He was in the county area, and the paramedics and officers took a while to get there.

But I was looking more for anecdotal information of how good this round actually is, using the gold standard of the 125 grain HP .357 Mag as a yardstick. All of the posts have been interesting, but you, KirkD, Hobie, and AJMD brought things to the table that relate most closely to the actual question. Jumbeaux is correct about the two to the body and one to the head - that is the drill here, with most agencies, because the center mass is a WHOLE lot easier to hit in an instant than the head, and the headshot is only needed if the person has a vest or is somehow still aggressive due to bad bullet placement or superhuman adrenalin strength or bad bullet construction or fabrication (all of which can occur).

I have disliked the .357 Mag as a defense arm since I used mine in an incident, firing behind a car at a cop killer. Incidentally, the downed officer was my best friend at the time - we worked together, dated together, and I even brought him to the Lord a week before the shooting. The fender apparently kept bouncing the sharp muzzle blast back to my face, because after the felon was dispatched I could not hear much of anything in my surroundings, including instructions from the Sheriff (THE Sheriff - my boss) when he arrived, and I thought that everybody was lisping for a week after that.

Many self-proclaimed experts who have never been in a shooting incident will frequently advise others that "your adrenalin takes over and the muzzle blast won't bother you." They don't consider that the delicate eardrum and mechanisms still don't have a defense against the blast.

I have a bit of hearing loss in one ear ever since that shootout. I had a .45 sidearm in Viet Nam and I never had that problem. It was for that reason that I started reading Cooper's articles and switched to the .45 with its lower pressure and gentler muzzle blast - at that time my agency allowed you to choose your weapon, providing you were accurate with it. It is still my daily carry weapon, now that I'm retired (although that will most likely change when those Grizzly Extreme .38 monsters arrive in the mail). How much more would one be deafened at night by a .357, or even a high pressure .40 SW, shooting in a room to defend the family against a late night attacker? Especially with a .357 snubbie. As you know from your training, Rexster, the ability to hear and to keep track of your surroundings is paramount in self-defense. At least the powder companies are improving somewhat with their lower sound intensity forumations.

That, of course, is a forseeable problem with the loud, high frequency .327 Mag, but I was just curious if anybody has any information on how the round REALLY performs, on deer, for instance; since no cop or civilian related shooting stats are out there.

Thanks, all for the lively debate and comments.

[KirkD]

...I even brought him to the Lord a week before the shooting.

Very glad to hear that, John.

[TCB in TN]

A pea shooter in the pocket beats a cannon in the car! Not saying the .32 mag is a pea shooter, but the analogy holds. IMHO one should carry the BIGGEST cal that 1, they can shoot accurately, and 2 comes in a package that they will carry regularly. Cause if you don't got it, it won't help you!

[donw]

i saw on a program on the outdoor channel where the Glock 17 is the most popular handgun on the planet in 9mm. true? false? i don't know and I'm not really concerned about it.

the U.S. military puts its faith in the Beretta 9mm for it standard sidearm and recently 're-upped' to get more of them.

my personal choice for self/home defense is my 870 Remington with #7 shot. when I'm "out and about", either Colt 1911, .45 ACP or Ruger P95DC 9mm.

.32 mag? sure...why not? will it "stop"? yes...will it "kill"...yes...it "stops" by killing.

this subject has been debated since men began using firearms for defensive/offensive reasons. there's so many factors involved there is, no one, CORRECT, answer.

you have to determine what YOU feel is best for YOUR application and work on it from there.

[JohndeFresno]

Groan... Here we go again. Here is my view (right or wrong!).

Yup, the 9 is the current military choice, but there is much talk about returning to the .45. Many highly placed folks in uniform believe that the 9mm choice was a mistake. Logistically, it's easier to arm our troops with a caliber that is more common throughout the world. And so on. That does not mean it's better, or even as effective. Look at what our Armed Forces have for a rifle - one that is not legal for hunting deer in several states!

One can effectively argue that a smaller caliber affords more rounds in the magazine. But then again, I have a little handgun that offers well over 40 shots before refilling. It has very little incapacitation power, however - but it does a good job of drenching your opponent.

And I note that many hostage teams in civilian and military agencies (like FBI, SWAT units, elite military units) prefer the .45 or even the .40 or .357 SIG (marshals, Secret Service in some instances, from what I've gathered) over the 9's - they drop 'em more reliably, their armorers claim. RK Campbell recently wrote another article about the military needing to switch back; but again this isn't specifically about the age-old 9mm vs. 4 tenths of an inch debate.

So any hammer is better than your fist when framing a house; but I was looking to see if a particular hammer reliably and quickly drives a big nail, so to speak. Reading between the lines, it looks like the .327 Mag might prove to be a reasonably decent little defense round; but it looks like the jury is still out on this one. C'mon .38 Special Grizz Extremes!

[Hankster]

""How much more would one be deafened at night by a .357, or even a high pressure .40 SW, shooting in a room to defend the family against a late night attacker? Especially with a .357 snubbie. As you know from your training, Rexster, the ability to hear and to keep track of your surroundings is paramount in self-defense. At least the powder companies are improving somewhat with their lower sound intensity forumations.""

John I would hope you aren't advocating those rounds for in the house defense..... the "penetration" thru interior walls is VERY dangerous.....be it your house, or worse an Apartment!!! Who is in the next room over??? Kind of like the 12 ga "Buckshot" crowd..... BAD choice indoors.... #6 or #7 will do it all..... there ARE times when you can have "TOO MUCH" gun!!! Just a thought.......

[JohndeFresno]

John I would hope you aren't advocating those rounds for in the house defense..... the "penetration" thru interior walls is VERY dangerous...

You are right on, Hankster.

No, I'm all for a big hole made by a relatively slow moving large caliber round. My choice has always been the .45 ACP with proper hollowpoints, with a close second of a .44 caliber rapidly expanding round - or the great .45 Colt in a slow, expanding round if it is available. If an .80 caliber expanding slow velocity cartridge were available in a modern handgun, I'd like that even better. If the aircraft propeller blade Grizzly Extreme .38's work as reliably as I expect them to, my home and personal defense paradigm will drastically change. I'll carry my little aluminum .38 snubbie (with speedloaders) from that point forward, and maybe even purchase a Bersa .380 for that purpose. Whatever makes an obscenely big hole without excessive penetration. 100 yard accuracy is not part of the equation; controlled, quick close range shots are.

[2571]

the man who was hit with a .22 and didn't drop right now, probablly won't have with a similar hit from a 357.

I'm a lawyer. Defended a cop in a wrongul death suit who returned fire from a thug, hitting the guy with factory loaded .357 in the heart. Thug ran 1½ blocks before falling over dead.

[KirkD]

I'm a lawyer. Defended a cop in a wrongul death suit who returned fire from a thug, hitting the guy with factory loaded .357 in the heart. Thug ran 1½ blocks before falling over dead.

Very interesting. Do you happen to recall if the bullet penetrated completely through the heart, or just one side? I'll wager that a 45, with its increased mass, would not only penetrate completely through the heart, but would have made a larger diameter hole, resulting in a shorter life span for the thug.

[KCSO]

On game up to dog size it's just dandy. On a man size target I would rate it as about equal to the 38 +p. This is from 10+ years of shooting it in a Smith 3" and a Ruger 6" revolver and using it to put down injured deer. The upside to the 32 is that it is so easy to shoot and so accurate. It's my wife's favorite gun and she shoots a Marlin 32 Mag and a companion Ruger Bisley and I wouldn't want to have her shooting at me. I load a 115 grain s/w bullet pretty warm for serious use and it seems to work.

[tman]

the man who was hit with a .22 and didn't drop right now, probablly won't have with a similar hit from a 357.

I'm a lawyer. Defended a cop in a wrongul death suit who returned fire from a thug, hitting the guy with factory loaded .357 in the heart. Thug ran 1½ blocks before falling over dead.

yep, real world is different from laboratory controlled expected results in a pre convieved environment intended to sell MAGIC BULLET ONESTOP DROP DEAD RIGHT NOW ON THE SPOT. i don't hunt brown bear with a handgun. if i'm in that country i got a .357 180 hardcast. far below the expert's minium caliber. in the hot summer, i'm carring a keltec .32 with 60 grain hardcast. in either siuation, i am avoiding any contact. if i can't run away, i'm gonna shoot and reload and shoot until the bear eats me or the bad guy kills me. LIFE'S TOO SHORT TO SWEAT THE DETAILS.

[JohndeFresno]

On game up to dog size it's just dandy. On a man size target I would rate it as about equal to the 38 +p. This is from 10+ years of shooting it in a Smith 3" and a Ruger 6" revolver and using it to put down injured deer. The upside to the 32 is that it is so easy to shoot and so accurate. It's my wife's favorite gun and she shoots a Marlin 32 Mag and a companion Ruger Bisley and I wouldn't want to have her shooting at me. I load a 115 grain s/w bullet pretty warm for serious use and it seems to work.

Finally - we scored some empirical data!

That's precisely the information that this ol' Central Valley boy was looking for. Now I know, and can make a suggestion to a friend who is considering that exact same setup for his wife, who doesn't do well with stouter setups.

The gun mags rate it well, but then again those nice fellas tend to fawn over almost everything that they test, since they are more or less courted by the industry.

Thank you for the comparison and info, KCSO.

[Hankster]

Thanks for making that clear Johndefresno..... had me worried for a moment!! The thing is, all these discussions are "academic".. it depends on the person, the state of mind, the mindset, the adrenaline level, and even the DRUG level etc as to how any and all would respond to a hit.. from ANYTHING!! .22's have killed quick, 44 mags have let perps run off....yes, the basic "rule" is bigger caliber hit harder and knock down better. Best to err on this side than "play games" with less potent rounds.. can it be done?? Sure.... would you want to bet you LIFE on it??? THAT question says it all.....