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I am a recent newbie at reading Backwoodsman magazine and I really enjoy some of the their articles. It is neat to see a magazine without someone doing the umpteenth test on the new wonder mag. However, one of the articles this month is on Cowboys and guns, and it has me a little rankled...."Five Shots are not enough"by Rusty Keller. He makes some cogent points about Hollywood and their depictions of Old West Cowboys and their equipment. Two of his points are a little much though.
He states that loading a six shooter with five shots would be idiotic and that the old timers never would have done this. They rested the hammer on the space between the chambers, he states. While I agree that many men must have loaded 6 shots in the revolvers, especially the 1858 Remingtons which had a secure cut out for the hammer, I don't think one should never say never. I'm sure a number of men did load their revolvers with five shots after witnessing accidental discharges. Also, the author's method does not seem to be conducive at all to not snapping your firing pin off at some point on a cartridge revolver.
Another statement that has me rankled is his statement that very few people in the Old West actually had guns. Well, I didn't know everyone from the Old West but I did know a great number of folks who grew up in Texas and Oklahoma when the Wild West was still on(my Grandparents included) and it would be sheer idiocy for them NOT to have had a gun. During the hard times there would have been no other way to get meat, except for trapping which was also employed. They always had a 22 or a single or double barreled shotgun. ALWAYS. Now, I know alot of folks did not carry guns openly in town during the Old West but they did own them. This idea that a family did not have one for food or personal protection is a strange one to me. When the Civil War came on just about every Southern boy showed up with his own weapon, and in case of the Cavalry his own horse. The catalogues from the time show weapons of every variety. How could these things have been if most folks didn't own a weapon? Not sure where these ideas come from really. Thanks for letting me rant. I love the magazine, this one article got me going a little though.
Last edited by C. Cash on Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:09 pm, edited 4 times in total.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
I have an 1860 Colt that has the cut out in the hammer and there are little nipples or posts in the cylinder between the chambers that you can set the hammer down on. So it would be safe to load six. Not sure about the cartridge conversions that became popular in later years, maybe they had a similar feature. But you would be crazy to load six in the others for general carrying. I could see loading six if you where expecting trouble!
My grand father came to Dakota Territory in 1866 or so. He raised a bunch of boys and they all carried some kind of fire arm. My father has a few of his uncles guns. Several had the pocket pistols if nothing else.
Yea, I believe some gunwriters write articles knowing full well that MOST people won't know the truth, one way or another, so to them, its a paycheck and to the unknowledgable, gospel.
People were no more unintelligent then as they are now. In fact, they were most likely more knowledgable about their firearms then as even a small penetration from a .22 could mean a death sentence in the way of infection.
As you say in your post, the '58 Remingtons had safety notches as did the old Manhattens. These were not put in to satisfy lawyers.-------Sixgun
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD
They may not of owned the latest Winchester repeating arm, nor had any use for a Colt Peacemaker (Quigley) but they certainly did have at least single or double barrel shotguns. Also read that many a poor settler preferred the economy of a muzzleloader almost up into the 20th century. Besides providing food for the larder they had to also deal with restless natives and later cattle barons and their henchmen.
The Backwoodsman is written by people like us(no professional gunwriters).It's just in magazine form .Some of the stuff in it really interests me and some of it is stove fodder.
Rebel1972 wrote:The Backwoodsman is written by people like us(no professional gunwriters).It's just in magazine form .Some of the stuff in it really interests me and some of it is stove fodder.
A good point and it is refreshing overall to read a wide variety of opinions/topics. Not everyone has to be right all the time. The assertion about there being few guns in the Old West or in America during the early years for that matter, is truly puzzling though. You see this idea bandied about alot. This is good fodder for the anti's. Many have the common sense not to believe it but for the masses.....
Dakota7 Yes...I remember seeing a great number of pocket pistols being carried by the generation born around the turn of the century(ca. 1900)...men who grew up in these regions of the rather unsettled West and Southwest. Single barrel .410's were as common as pots and pans in the kitchen among this generation as was a good 22. I have my Grandfather's Single Barrel 12 Gauge and will pass it down to my kids.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
I had a friend that brought me what turned out to be an old encrusted Colt Bisley in .45 that he had found. he was checking out some old shack remains in the south eastern part of AZ (Tombstone/Bisbey area) he did not give exact coordinance, when he tripped on something sticking out of the ground... it was the grip frame!
Anyways, I was able to clean and "de-crust" it down to serial number level. I got it cleaned up down to where you could see all the cartridges in the chambers... all except there was NOT one under the hammer! I cleaned it down to where you could even read the manufacture dates, caliber, serial number. I wanted to keep going but that was good enough for him as he just wanted to hang it on the wall as it was.
This was before digital cameras and I didnt get a picture of it anyways.
But my estimates was this gun had been there since some poor sole dropped it nearly 100 years ago!
But note that it had an EMPTY chamber under the hammer!
longhair1957 wrote:I had a friend that brought me what turned out to be an old encrusted Colt Bisley in .45 that he had found. he was checking out some old shack remains in the south eastern part of AZ (Tombstone/Bisbey area) he did not give exact coordinance, when he tripped on something sticking out of the ground... it was the grip frame!
Anyways, I was able to clean and "de-crust" it down to serial number level. I got it cleaned up down to where you could see all the cartridges in the chambers... all except there was NOT one under the hammer! I cleaned it down to where you could even read the manufacture dates, caliber, serial number. I wanted to keep going but that was good enough for him as he just wanted to hang it on the wall as it was.
This was before digital cameras and I didnt get a picture of it anyways.
But my estimates was this gun had been there since some poor sole dropped it nearly 100 years ago!
But note that it had an EMPTY chamber under the hammer!
AHA!!!!!!! Thanks for relating this longhair....that would be a neat find indeed. I loved exploring the desert as a kid with my Dad...north of Phoenix and toward the Superstitions. We never found our treasure but alot of neat things out there for sure.
Last edited by C. Cash on Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Just out of curiosity I tried resting the hammer pin of my (*unloaded*) Cimarron in between the chambers of my SAA.
It worked I suppose, but I for one would not want to walk around with all six chambers full like that.
It *might* handle being dropped, but any kind of rubbing against the revolver and I'd be afraid it could become very dangerous, very fast.
Capitalism is notable for the unequal distribution of wealth.
Socialism is notable for the equal distribution of poverty.
***************************************************************
If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
Food for thought, folks: An empty chamber, under a revolver's hammer might prevent an inadvertant firing if the hammer was hit, say by a stirrup falling off a saddle, or somesuch other happenchance, but - what if said hammer was cocked just by being caught on brush, just enough to rotate the cylinder & fire the next chamber, when it slipped off ?
Pete44ru wrote:Food for thought, folks: An empty chamber, under a revolver's hammer might prevent an inadvertant firing if the hammer was hit, say by a stirrup falling off a saddle, or somesuch other happenchance, but - what if said hammer was cocked just by being caught on brush, just enough to rotate the cylinder & fire the next chamber, when it slipped off ?
You've just described an issue with almost all "hammer" guns.
Once cocked the dang things just want to be ready to fire!
I know for a fact that both of my Grandfathers ( 1902&1910) went packing in the '20s and '30s. And when they were kids rarely went w/o a .22 for small game to add to the pot.
When my Dad's father went West in the '20s he ended up on the Border patrol for a few years. Was always armed in those days. I know he had a Colt or S&W 1917 at that time. Sure wish I knew what happened to that one.
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
If you hang around the auctions in Oklahoma and Kansas you will see a perponderance of old arms with provenance. Just wanted to work 2 "p" words into a sentance.
I think a lot of people and homes had firearms...maybe not so many Colts, Hi-walls or hi end levers... stuff like the S&W copies or Iver Jonsons show up pretty often
~Hill
C.Cash. After I posted I went back and looked at the magazine again .he is griping about movie cowboys wearing spurs everywhere they go.Then he goes too far and starts pickin' on Quigley .He says MQ puts his spurs on before he gets on the boat for Austrailia.I always thought he was still in Wyoming at the first of the movie.And when he got off the ship he thought he would be riding a horse as evedenced by the scene where they laughed at him for his comment about ridin' in the back of the wagon with the women.The same guy is in the front of the magazine ,in the letters to the editor, saying not to shoot at a charging bear .After he tells us its's not a good idea to take a dog walking in the woods where you might encounter a bear ,he proceeds to tell us tha he takes his dog with him.He also says that a 44 magnum out of a pistol is like an underpowered 30-30 on a bear.
You don't mess with Quigley!!!! Why doesn't he just take a swipe at the Duke himself while he's at it? Actually to his credit he does say Quigley is a good flick. Thanks for letting me rant fellas. Stuff like this bothers me when it's presented as gospel truth.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Just got back on the site after a week and seen this thread. I buy the backwoodsman as often as possible. I also had an issue with the article on cowboys and sixguns. My grandfather was a real life cowboy( as opposed to a REEL life cowboy). He spent a goodly portion of the early years of the last century working cattle and sheep in the wyoming montana and Dakotas areas. His one sin, much like my own, was a desire to own the newest and bestest he could afford. Some thing Gramma took issue with in later years and caused them to split the sheets. When I was a lad and Just learning I carried various and sundry hand guns from every maker imaginable. My great uncle John who had a dramatic influence on me; used to tell me stories from his Bother-in-law, my Grandpa Ralph. He told me stories of people that gramps had worked with in the early years who figured they weren't cowboys unless they had a hog leg with them. I heard many stories based on green horns who shot themselves and there horses working cattle with a full load of six in their pistols! This included one poor fella whose saddle stirup did indeed shoot him in the foot. Apparently it took him the better part of the summer for the infection to finally kill him. This was MANY rough miles from a regular doctor that none of them could afford. I also heard of a roped steer dropping the hammer on another fellow who ended up shot through the fat part of his leg. He ended up with a dead horse and a very P.O.d steer at the end of a rope! He darn near bled to death before he finaly hopped out to where they could find him. So I heard of people who learned the hard way and fortunately took it to heart. I never loaded any of my old revolvers with all chambers full.Even my old F&W and a couple of old H&Rs were 5 shooters and I still have all my toes and most of my fingers! I pity the new generation that take articles like this as a basis for their learning the ins and outs of shooting and packing. As an aside to this uncle John was very partial to the S&W and Colt DA 32/20 revolvers. And when he was packing on snow shoes he always carried the Colt with an empty chamber he didn't trust them like he did the S&W; but he claimed they shot better than the S&W! Just wanted to add my two cents.
Everyday is a learning day!
Pain is good, pain is our friend, pain is the ONE TRUE constant in a changing world! Sargent David L. Meyers gone but not forgotten.
Thank you for your story/info Cavebear. Sounds like you and your family had some neat experiences. BTW my Uncle John was the Cowboy of the family too(in thumbnail photo below) and he had a great influence on me...lived with and around him for a number of years. With the Lord now but he helped save my young life for which I will be forever thankful. Those Cowboy Uncles sure leave an impression!
PS: I'm not putting 6 in my Flat Top any time soon
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Regarding the hammer down on an empty chamber, on the old colt peacemakers in the old west, I believe that is best way to carry one, and I think a lot of oldtimers did just that.
Elmer Keith grew up at the close of the old west, and talked to a great many old timers, even civil war veterans. And he always advocated carrying with the hammer down on an empty chamber.
However, I also think that many of the old timers, did not know much about gun safety, and did carry with six rounds, probably with the hammer resting between the chambers as that was the way it was done on the old cap and ball guns, and many more carried the gun with six loaded and the hammer on the first click up, and more then one of them, got shot in the leg when a sturip fell down from the saddle horn and hit the hammer, shearing off the halfcock notch and firing the gun.
I have even seen people that should know better, carry an old flattop ruger with six loaded and the hammer on halfcock. I have even pointed it out to them and they still continued to do it that way. So I have no doubt that the old peacemaker was carried at the ready with six, but I wouldn't, not unless I fully expected to get in a gunfight that morning.
I had an old Cowboy buddy (GOD rest his soul) that claimed that many cowhands put their burial money (a rolled up bill) in the empty chamber of their Colts. I always load my SAA... half-cock....load one, skip one, load four then roll the hammer back and let it down on an empty. Old school I guess but that's the way I was taught.
You know? It seems that all the "Gun Writers" would just look at us today. Even in America today we ALL go packing just thinking about a possible confrontation. Rewind about a hundred years and all us Servivalist types would just come out of the woodwork. Where would these guys think that he Male instinct to protect and hunt and a yearning for adventure would go? He must be from New York
I've heard of this idea of loading six then resting the hammer between the cylinders. I was reading Charle's Pate's book on the S&W American the other day. He's got a tremendous amount of research in that book. Anyway, contrary to what I'd thought, the S&W Model three was the most common cartridge sixgun in the old west in the 1870's, not the Colt 1873 SAA and he has the actual numbers of each in his book to compare. Well, the significance of this is that I have an original S&W Model Three (circa 1873) and the cartridge rims pretty much touch each other when chambered. There is no place to rest the hammer between the cartridges. I don't know if the Colt 1873 SAA has the cartridge rims further apart or not, but I sure wouldn't want to try loading six with the hammer down halfway between the two primers with an original S&W sixgun. Now I also have another S&W sixgun made in 1880 and it has a rebounding hammer (and here I thought the rebounding hammer was a dad-blamed invention of Miroku). I can see where a fellow would be tempted to load six in that gun. I do pack these old irons into the bush from time to time and I load five and keep the hammer down on the empty chamber.
thats right , my great grandad born in 1853 missouri always carried a double barrel shotgun while driving his horse and wagon, while in town and everywhere else. for food, self defense and you name it. darn near everyone in missouri during that period owned and carried them.
C. Cash wrote:I am a recent newbie at reading Backwoodsman magazine and I really enjoy some of the their articles. It is neat to see a magazine without someone doing the umpteenth test on the new wonder mag. However, one of the articles this month is on Cowboys and guns, and it has me a little rankled...."Five Shots are not enough"by Rusty Keller. He makes some cogent points about Hollywood and their depictions of Old West Cowboys and their equipment. Two of his points are a little much though.
He states that loading a six shooter with five shots would be idiotic and that the old timers never would have done this. They rested the hammer on the space between the chambers, he states. While I agree that many men must have loaded 6 shots in the revolvers, especially the 1858 Remingtons which had a secure cut out for the hammer, I don't think one should never say never. I'm sure a number of men did load their revolvers with five shots after witnessing accidental discharges. Also, the author's method does not seem to be conducive at all to not snapping your firing pin off at some point on a cartridge revolver.
Another statement that has me rankled is his statement that very few people in the Old West actually had guns. Well, I didn't know everyone from the Old West but I did know a great number of folks who grew up in Texas and Oklahoma when the Wild West was still on(my Grandparents included) and it would be sheer idiocy for them NOT to have had a gun. During the hard times there would have been no other way to get meat, except for trapping which was also employed. They always had a 22 or a single or double barreled shotgun. ALWAYS. Now, I know alot of folks did not carry guns openly in town during the Old West but they did own them. This idea that a family did not have one for food or personal protection is a strange one to me. When the Civil War came on just about every Southern boy showed up with his own weapon, and in case of the Cavalry his own horse. The catalogues from the time show weapons of every variety. How could these things have been if most folks didn't own a weapon? Not sure where these ideas come from really. Thanks for letting me rant. I love the magazine, this one article got me going a little though.
I guess you can go into the psychology of some of these men too. If one had a job where he was constantly being shot at and his occupation was to eliminate the one doing the shooting(like a Texas/Arizona Ranger, Sheriff, Soldier fighting hostiles nearly every day or at least expecting to), he might just take the chance on leaving a gun loaded with Six. A guy might just figure his life was worth spit anyway so why not? Young kids that are ten foot tall and bullet proof would probably do it until they realized that they might get killed. But for someone who was experienced with firearms and shooting people was not his primary occupation(like a Cowboy ), no way would he tote it loaded that way. Some few maybe, but most would be smarter I would think. Just my .02 and I appreciate all your input on this fellas. I'm not crazy after all, apparently! Well, maybe the jury is still out on that one but this has been very interesting and informative to say the least.
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
I cant really add more than has been said. I am almost 67 but have studied history, been brought up in the country and from early on talked to all the old timers I could. My conclusions are this: Almost without exception I would say all farmers and ranchers kept guns around. Most of the guns werent glamorous but a lot of old single barrel shotguns etc.
I bet a lot of revolvers were carried with 6 instead of 5 the way we want to belive. Maybe high as 50/50 %? Even the storekeepers kept at least a pocket gun around for defendse. One of my grandfathers ran a old country general store around the turn of the century and I know he did. I had a old great uncle who ran a little butcher shop in our village yet in the 40s and I remember him pulling out a large nickle s&w .44 breaktop and laying it on the counter while he counted out change to a cronie, probley to impress me as a 7 year old kid. A lot of those old timers were combat civil war vets as my great great grandfather was and they knew guns and how to shoot. My folks had some close very old friends and that guy had chased poncho villa around with blackjack pershing and showed me guns he had used back then. I came from a huge family on my dads side. He was the oldest of 10, and he had 7 older half brothers and sisters for a total of 17 kids! Every one of them had multable guns in the house and hunted. Maybe it was different with city people in the east.
I posted this old picture on the old site but thought it would be fun to post again. It probley was a gun club around 1890s or 1900. It was in my grandpa,s stuff.
Very cool Bogus Bill. Lordy! That is some nice iron there. Any idea where it was taken? They remind me of some of the Butch Cassidy photos...perhaps early 1890's?
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Not sure if this will come through, but this is my Great Uncle Joel Hartley in Eastern OK somewhere in the teens or twenties. He is on left and brother right, holding Stevens Favorite. He was an avid Coon hunter and broke/trained horses much of his life and passed off his knowledge to my Uncle John in thumbnail below. I was supposed to inherit his 22 Revolver but it walked off to other family members. This photo always reminded me of "Where the Red Fern Grows".
KirkD: been thinking about your S&W info. You know, you do see more Smiths in old West photos than anything else, among the common folk, it seems to me. Makes sense and thank you for the info. Thanks to all again for your input. This is a great site to learn much!
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
Thanks for relating this longhair....that would be a neat find indeed. I loved exploring the desert as a kid with my Dad...north of Phoenix and toward the Superstitions. We never found our treasure but alot of neat things out there for sure.
