OT: Jaguar in the tall grass

[Machado]

Just finished reading "Jaguar Hunting in the Mato Grosso and Bolivia" by Tony Almeida. Interesting reading and plenty of photos. Beautiful but inhospitable country. Out of print but available used from
http://www.amazon.com/Jaguar-Hunting-Ma ... 0940143216
Antonio

[gamekeeper]

Beautiful Cats, I remember reading about them when I was a kid, the book I had said 12 gauge shotguns with buckshot were the preferred weapon then.
What does your book recommend?

[Doc Hudson]

Beautiful Cats, I remember reading about them when I was a kid, the book I had said 12 gauge shotguns with buckshot were the preferred weapon then.
What does your book recommend?

Guns!!

We don't need no stinkin' guns fer spotted kitties!

At least Sasha Simmel, the famous Brazilian Tigrero killed most of his huge bag of jaguars with a spear. most of the ones he shot were killed with a .32 S&W revolver 9don't know if it was a Long or Short .32). Someone eventually gave him a Smith & Wesson .357 Magnum and he bagged a number with that revolver.

iffen it was me going into the tall grass, I'd want nothing less than a .44 RemMag carbine or a .45-70 even better. Them big spotted kitties might scratch my delicate hide if I tried it a la Sasha.

[KCSO]

Thank God someone else remembers Sasha! I still have an old Outdoor Life article on him, when I was a kid he was my hero. He used Spear, bow and arrow and later in life he carried a 303 british carbine. He was still guiding in his eighties if I remember right. I think he was in the movies too as ??? Jungle Man. Now we are going back 40 years or so. I would love to canoe or kayak the pantanal.

[Machado]

If you're culling buckshot will do, but will tear too many holes in a valuable pelt. The weapon of choice has been - for over a century - the Winchester 92 in .44-40.
Jaguars can be dropped with almost anything that goes bang, PROVIDED you score a solid hit where it counts. The weaponry cited in the book is extensive: 7x57 Mausers, .270 Mannlichers, .30-06 Springfields, a .350 Remington Magnum carbine, and the ubiquitous .44-40 M-92. The author states that the only rifle that can take on the Pantanal is the Mauser. All the others developed "irrational behavior" after a while. As far as handguns are concerned, The author is particularly favorable to a 6" barrel, stainless steel .357 magnum S&W. The equipment list is long.
Sasha Siemel is a legend in those parts. He hunted like an indian, after learning how dangerous jaguars can be in the tall grass. Local indians use a strong spear called ZAGAIA: a foot-long, double edged, very, very sharp forged steel blade fixed upon a 7-ft long staff of Ipê or Roxinho hardwood of about 2" diameter.
The second largest jaguar on record was killed by Texas industrialist John Howell. This cat was shot with a .350 Rem mag and weighed 263 pounds. The largest was killed by Erwin Wilson, then president of the Shikar-Safari Club with a 7x57 Mauser and weighed 290 pounds.
Traveling in the Pantanal can be great fun, if you have a good guide. I urge you to go. Canoeing and kayaking may be exciting. But remember the piranhas and the 25-ft anacondas that seem to be always hungry.
I was in the Pantanal early in October last, before the rain began. It truly is the metaphor of biodiversity.

[Hobie]

I thought that Sasha Simmel was too cool. I tried to emulate him by spearing a groundhog... I got the groundhog but he ran up the shaft at me! Didn't think about putting a crossbar on that thing.

[Machado]

Hobie, I have an old paperback copy of Sasha Siemel's book Tigrero!, published by the Explorers Club in 1953. It is mandatory reading for all of us shooters and hunters. He learned his tricks from a Guató indian named Joaquim Guató, who was killed by a jaguar a few years later. By the way, in this day and age, the Guató and other tribes of Lower Amazonia - and Pantanal cowhands as well - still swear by the Zagaia and a pack of dogs as the best jaguar insurance there is. And yes, all zagaias I have seem do have a stout crossguard where the blade ends.
Antonio

[Doc Hudson]

Thank God someone else remembers Sasha! I still have an old Outdoor Life article on him, when I was a kid he was my hero. He used Spear, bow and arrow and later in life he carried a 303 british carbine. He was still guiding in his eighties if I remember right. I think he was in the movies too as ??? Jungle Man. Now we are going back 40 years or so. I would love to canoe or kayak the pantanal.

IIRC, I first encountered Sasha in s vopy of Boys Life in the early 1960's.

he certainly was MUCHO HOMBRE!!

[levernut]

Hi Machado.

It's pleasant to see another Brazilian at Leverguns.
Where is your location? Perhaps we are near to each other.
I live in Anapolis, GO.
I've done some reading on Sacha Siemel.
The Smith & Wesson he owned and used on them jaguars, was a 8³/8 pre Model 27. The Winchester 92 was a 14" barrel 44-40. A favorite for many people who lived in the rain forest and very common in Brazil.
He also used a 7X57 Mauser carbine (mosquetao) with a bayonet fixed in it to deal with the huge cats. And there's a photo were Sacha appears with a Drilling.
He was, indeed, a great outdoorsman.
I guess I was born too late, when our freedom is gone.

[mescalero1]

I read abou Sasha in Capstick's book

[Machado]

Yo, Levernut,
I'm in Belo Horizonte, 1,200 km from you.
Siemel reported using a top-break S&W .44, with which he shot himself in the foot allegedly because he was dazzled by a lady journalist he eventually married. I think he was very brave to go poke a jaguar with a 7mm Mauser and military FMJ bullets. I know I wouldn't. We're having problems with jaguars in the Paranã valley, near Alvorada do Norte. They have no predators and the law (?!) is on their side. We've complained with Ibama, to no avail. Our losses continue. Keep your ammo high and dry.
Antonio

[Machado]

Mescalero, Capstick's narrative in Death in the Silent Places is far juicier than Siemel's. The Latvian's composition was dry as a good martini and gives you the bullet hole only, no target paper.
Antonio

[Hobie]

Hobie, I have an old paperback copy of Sasha Siemel's book Tigrero!, published by the Explorers Club in 1953. It is mandatory reading for all of us shooters and hunters. He learned his tricks from a Guató indian named Joaquim Guató, who was killed by a jaguar a few years later. By the way, in this day and age, the Guató and other tribes of Lower Amazonia - and Pantanal cowhands as well - still swear by the Zagaia and a pack of dogs as the best jaguar insurance there is. And yes, all zagaias I have seem do have a stout crossguard where the blade ends.
Antonio

I am one to reaffirm from personal experience that if the thing you intend to stick might come up the shaft after you, it will. Put that crossbar on there!

[mescalero1]

You are probably right,
but still, I do NOT think I would do it.

[mescalero1]

Groundhog,
Hobie you are too much!
would loved to see the look on your face.

[Hobie]

A ten year old boy who managed to spear a groundhog in the chest only to have it come right up the shaft at him and him trying to maintain "control" with his fingertips by pushing on the butt of the spear... Yeah, I'd like to have seen that too, now. Not then. I went back and got my grandpa's rifle! I ran. I was sure that old boar was going to chase me down and chew me into nothing! He was dead by the time I returned.

The spear? It was made from a broken bamboo fishing rod and the point was some scrap flat strapping from Grandpa's shop sharpened to a "keen" edge on his bench grinder. I will never forget how it felt to push that blade into that groundhog. I can see why people hunt hogs with dogs and knives.

[mescalero1]

[levernut]

Machado

Thanks for the advice concerning the ammo.
Here in GO we have notice of some puma attacking goat and other domestic creatures in the region of Padre Bernardo, about 150 km north from my town.
I've been there last month. We stayed four days in a friend's cattle ranch.
It was sure conforting to have my Winchester 92 38-40 close to my bed. I also took my trusty Rossi Puma 357 and, just in case, I kept my Rossi model 720, 44 Special, in my hip.
As you know, 38-40 ammo is gone for a long time so I have to handload. Brass is an issue. I have some but I'm transforming 44-40 into 38, whith good results. In order not to harm this old lady (1926) I keep my loads in the light to medium side.
But there's a whole different story with the Puma 357. I like to push 158s @ 1850 and 180s @ 1650.
And you bet I keep them dry.

[Machado]

Levernut,
I know where Padre Bernardo is. In 1992 I was there with Emsa people bidding for Antonio Chevrolet's farm, a 35,500 acre stretch of land. We rarely see pumas in the Paranã. They used to come and steal pigs from the pigsty, kill calves and goats but they're not nearly as dangerous as a full-grown jaguar. I never ride without my Redhawk .44 mag on my hip, a .44 mag Puma 92 in the scabbard and a good machete, but I'm positive that if a jaguar goes for the horse I'll be in very hot water. They're still killing. Good thing is that the alligators are back in the Paranã river, piranha is better controlled but the damnable stingrays are still everywhere and I worry when the kids go swimming.

[AmBraCol]

Machado and Levernut, I was raised in northern Goiás before it became Tocantins. It's good to see folks from Brasil on the forum. When I was a kid the jaguar were plenty thick but as cattlemen moved into the area they got shot out. My sons were born in Balsas, Maranhão. We didn't have many jaguar in the area, but puma (onça amarela) were common enough. Most of the '92s and '73s I saw were rusted hulks. 44-40 ammo was available and it was interesting to see the various Rossis that were rechambered to 357. It's surprising to me to hear you guys talk of the 44 mag and 44 spl. Such were no where to be seen when I was growing up, nor later when my kids were born. Of course, up north life is different. The main weapon to be seen was either a cartucheira or a "por fora" with smaller bores being common. There were a lot of the old "por fora" of about 40 caliber with wire wound and soldered on around the chamber area. The "36" (410) was the most common shotgun and the 20 gauge was king of the jungle, so to speak. It was a pleasure to visit some of the old gunsmiths for the chance to dig around in their junk piles. A number of old European and US built firearms were to be found there. I recall an old hulk that I'm 90% sure used to be a Smith & Wesson top break. Probably originally in 44-40, but who knows? By the time I saw it the chambers had rusted to where a 44-40 cartridge would rattle around like a pea in a gourd. Anyway, it's good to see y'all on the forum. And it's good to hear you've access to some fairly decent firearms. I carried a Rossi 6" 851 in 38 spl for a while. Along with a number of other guns at one time or another. Someday I'd like to go back and see if the old home place is still standing.

[Machado]

Paul, happy to hear you were brought up in Goiás. Maranhão is beautiful, and I was in a plane crash in the Tocantins river near Imperatriz in 1971. Do come back, in more pleasant seasons, the heat is unbearable now. My son is in the Mato Grosso fleeing from Carnival now, and said temperatures in Rochedo are nearing 43C.
I totally agree with you, the 20 gauge was considered the mostest gun you'd need anywhere. Jaguars - the big canguçu and many black panthers - migrated to Goiás, and are abundantly found in the Paranã river valley, on the slopes of the Geraes. President Collor's no-hunting law made them untouchable. Too bad our calves ain't.

[AmBraCol]

Thanks, Machado. I was raised in Araguaína, just south of where you had the wreck. I think I remember my uncle and dad talking about that incident. Collor did a lot of "great" stuff for the nation... Funny thing on the "no hunting" laws - they don't seem to apply in a lot of places. I quit hunting long before that because I saw what was happening to the fauna. But back in the middle of no where, folks have no idea that such laws even exist. Now I'm locked in a city, but at heart I'm just a sertanejo who'd rather be in the woods and jungle along some river.

[mescalero1]

It is good to hear you guys talk about the home place.
I think I now have to deal with one of your miscreant felines.

[levernut]

Yahoo!
I've never expected to "dig" so many brazilians.
Very nice to hear from you fellows
As you showed, AmBraCol, down here there's no tradition in useig high power rifles, not to say even weak rifles, for game hunting. Game (jaguar, puma) is (was ?) to be shot at short distance and shotguns will get the job well done.
Rifle hunting is not wide spread in Brazil, except 22LR.
I wish our friends from North America and Europe don't read this message.

[JerryB]

mescalero is that jag starting to act up?

[mescalero1]

Jerry,
Still behaving, but still around.
Plenty of water from all the snow, I don't think it will change it's behavior.

[mescalero1]

Jerry,
Still behaving, but still around.
Plenty of water from all the snow, I don't think it will change it's behavior.