Ross Seyfried's article on the 45 colt

[jd45]

CowboyTutt, I have to say I don't understand. jd45

[CowboyTutt]

Hi JD. I'm just poking fun at those of us, myself included, who need the most penetration/heaviest bullet weight that is feasable versus the "old standard" cartridges which work quite well. The 400 grain 22 mag I mentioned was just a rediculous example of the concept.

Grizz is my forum friend and as I said, I think his heavyweight 44 mag bullet is really neat. And I'm pretty certain it will do the job for him if he ever needs it to stop a bear. And I'm serious about the 500 grain bullet in the 454 more for very long range pistol shooting than as a "stopping round".

However, I'm not convinced that penetration is or should be the only criteria for a "stopping cartridge" based upon all the experiences of Professional Hunters in Africa. An example would be the original 458 Win Mag cartridge which did not live up to advertised ballistics. It was not as reliable a "stopping cartridge" as was hoped. One of the many outcomes of that led to the invention of the 458 Lott. For some inexplicable reason, the modest extra FPS of the Lott really made a difference when stopping charging animals. There just seemed to be some sweet spot with a 458 diameter, 500 grain bullet and it needed to be going about 2200 fps plus change to reliably anchor game.

Then I read Garrett's article (of Garrett Cartridges) about how he demonstrated that a 458 bullet will penetrate LESS at speeds above about 2000 fps if memory serves. The 460 Weatherby penetrated the least in his experiments.

This information suggests to me that there is more happening here than we realize, that penetration is perhaps not the best criteria by which to measure effectiveness as a stopping cartridge and that velocity, even in very heavy bullets, still has something going for it as far as a "stopping" round.

I still think that Grizz's heavy weight 44 mag is a neat idea and I'm always glad to see new life breathed into classic cartridges.

-Tutt

P.S. Regarding penetration on buffalo using original Sharps' cartridges there is something often overlooked. Those bullets were made from pure lead and paper patched. So not only did they penetrate end to end, but they mushroomed to a REMARKABLE amount leaving a very large diameter and very long wound channel even at "slow" by modern standard terminal velocities. So, again, I don't think it was penetration alone that made those old world cartridges so effective.

[Grizz]

I stand corrected, Grizz.....Good shooting! jd45

All in good fun. Calibers and loads for those calibers have fans, like comparing the Chicago Cubs fans to the Chicago White Sox fans. They all love baseball, but they hate each other's teams.

Seems to me that there's a lot of that in the world of guns too. I admit to being provocative occasionally, just for the fun of it.

BUT, the info I relate from my own use and testing of loads is as honest and accurate as I can make it. And my own preferences are just that, my preferences.

If the writer of the original article hadn't dissed .44 cal handguns I might have stayed on the sidelines. It's the fan thingy.

Best

Grizz

[Idiot]

Then I read Garrett's article (of Garrett Cartridges) about how he demonstrated that a 458 bullet will penetrate LESS at speeds above about 2000 fps if memory serves. The 460 Weatherby penetrated the least in his experiments.

This cannot be proven and Garrett did not demonstrate it. Garrett's implication is pure marketing, and clever marketing at that. Send two heavily constructed bullets shaped to penetrate through the same testing medium at different velocities, one faster than the other, and the faster will always penetrate deeper. Garrett says on one hand that slower bullets will penetrate deeper, then goes on to sell you his ammo that is based on the concept of heavier weight bullets at higher velocity (than original velocities). So he hopes his customers will "buy" into the idea that his "range" of velocity will provide maximum penetration over anything slower or faster. What a deal, right?

I have written to Garrett many times and asked him to send me data to back up his bogus implications (they are not "claims," his wording is very carefully drafted to "imply" a particular result and let the reader/customer jump to the desired conclusion) and he never has. He hasn't because he doesn't need to - he's fooled a lot of people, and because he can't prove his implication that slow bullets penetrate deeper than higher velocity bullets of equal solid design and construction. Garrett makes good high quality ammo, it is too bad he won't sell it on its considerable merits alone.

[Grizz]

Well, leaving Garrett out of it for a moment. I've presented evidence that suggests this is true in some cases at least. But not conclusive because not the same exact thing.

For example, the 405g 44 going 1020 fps went thru 13 water jugs. The 425g 45/70 going 1900+ fps stops in 7 or 8 jugs. That 1900 fps load is all the faster I will push that bullet in my marlins.

I know, apples to oranges because the 44 and 45 have different sectional densities. But the fact is, the slower 405 is the better penetrator on the jug test. I grant that it's counter-intuitive. But it is documented.

Bullets normally don't travel very far in water. To get a 44 mag round from a pistol penetrating 13 gallons of water is an eye-opener.

I challenge anyone with any caliber/bullet combo to meet or exceed this. I hope someone pulls it off, but so far it hasn't happened.

I think the punch bullets might have a good chance because I think they won't deform at high velocities.

So far, I've found no evidence that those bullets actually do out-penetrate any others, at least not on the jug test.

I know, I know, water jugs are not game animals. Or whatever else we like to shoot. But they do show how bullets behave, and they do allow good direct comparisons of momentum, penetration, stability, and impact reactions of the bullets themselves.

I would not be able to categorically state that such-and-such a bullet will ALWAYS penetrate farther at higher velocities UNLESS I had shot the tests, or seen them shot.

Grizz

[CowboyTutt]

Good responses from the both of you. Thanks guys!

I'll have to go back and read those articles from Garrett with a more discriminating eye. Its been a long time since I read them. I think there is a concept in physics pertaining to water that does explain the described phenomenon but I can't remember what it is anymore. Its been too long since I thought about it.

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

You are squaring the resistance while the momentum rises linearly. Has to be a sweet spot for the pentration.

[CowboyTutt]

O.S., I think your correct, or something to that effect. I'm fairly certain it was something to do with fluid dynamics. I'm trying to find it again. -Tutt

[jd45]

Point well taken, Grizz. Thanx.
CowboyTutt.....thanx for explainin. I appreciate it when someone uses the tool of absurity to get a concept across. jd45