45---long---colt

[pokey]

maybe there should be a LONG in that name.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylo ... t_colt.htm

hhmmmm

[J Miller]

Never was any "long" in the proper cartridge name and should never be.
That article you linked to was in regards to the .45 Colt Govt round. A hermaphroditic round made with the .45 Colt rim and the .45 S&W (Schofield) case length, powder charge and bullet weight. It was Frankford arsenals version of the "one size fits all" concept. The idea was to reduce the ammunition inventories of the Army and Cavalry. That way it didn't matter weather they were equipped with the Colt SAA, S&W Schofield, or both.

The commercial versions of the .45 Colt Govt came head stamped in at least a couple different ways. Some were simply head stamped .45 Colt as in the pics, and some were actually stamped .45 Colt Govt..
In any case the use of the "long" in the nickname .45 long Colt is incorrect and should be avoided.

Oh and some say the "long" part came about when the .45 ACP was introduced. This makes no sense at all when you really think about it. Why would anybody use an extra descriptive word to diferentiate a revolver cartridge from a auto cartridge?

It's the .45 Colt. That all that needs said.

Joe

[Chas.]

And yet another opinion:

Never was any "long" in the proper cartridge name and should never be....

Joe

From the Colt website "Colt revolvers come in six standard calibers. Choose the classic .45 Long Colt or any of five others to suit your taste: .357, .32/20, .38 Special, .44/40, .38/40." (my bold)

So Joe, you should probably call Colt Mfg. and tell them they're all wrong.

[JerryB]

I thought Paco mentioned the .45 Long Colt in an old article and where the term came from.I have heard the term all my life, don't mean it is right and it sure don't mean it is wrong. But it sure seems to get some folks blood pressure up.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I call it the .45 LONG COLT cause I hear it sooooo much it just stuck.

[Terry Murbach]

And yet another opinion:

Never was any "long" in the proper cartridge name and should never be....

Joe

From the Colt website "Colt revolvers come in six standard calibers. Choose the classic .45 Long Colt or any of five others to suit your taste: .357, .32/20, .38 Special, .44/40, .38/40." (my bold)

So Joe, you should probably call Colt Mfg. and tell them they're all wrong.

I DID AND THE ANSWER WAS "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A BUNCH OF ADVERTISING YAHOOS?"
THE CARTRIDGE WAS NAMED THE 45COLT IN 1873 AND THAT IS THE END OF IT !!! IT WAS NOT UNTIL THE END OF WWI THAT THE TERM 45 "LONG" COLT WAS EVER SEEN IN PRINT. EVIDENTLY THE DOUGHBOYS CALLED THEIR 1911 PISTOLS 45 COLTS AND DID NOT KNOW THE CARTRIDGE HAD IT'S OWN NAME "45ACP". AND INSTEAD OF USING THE CORRECT NAME FOR THE 45ACP THEY BASTARDIZED THE ORIGINAL 45COLT TO THE IGNORENT DESIGNATION WE STILL SEE TODAY TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE TWO.

[J Miller]

And yet another opinion:

Never was any "long" in the proper cartridge name and should never be....

Joe

From the Colt website "Colt revolvers come in six standard calibers. Choose the classic .45 Long Colt or any of five others to suit your taste: .357, .32/20, .38 Special, .44/40, .38/40." (my bold)

So Joe, you should probably call Colt Mfg. and tell them they're all wrong.

I DID AND THE ANSWER WAS "WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM A BUNCH OF ADVERTISING YAHOOS?"
THE CARTRIDGE WAS NAMED THE 45COLT IN 1873 AND THAT IS THE END OF IT !!! IT WAS NOT UNTIL THE END OF WWI THAT THE TERM 45 "LONG" COLT WAS EVER SEEN IN PRINT. EVIDENTLY THE DOUGHBOYS CALLED THEIR 1911 PISTOLS 45 COLTS AND DID NOT KNOW THE CARTRIDGE HAD IT'S OWN NAME "45ACP". AND INSTEAD OF USING THE CORRECT NAME FOR THE 45ACP THEY BASTARDIZED THE ORIGINAL 45COLT TO THE IGNORENT DESIGNATION WE STILL SEE TODAY TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN THE TWO.

Joe

[.45colt]

Keith wrote about this in "SIXGUNS",page 285. He says there is some basis for calling it the Long. Good enough for Me......Long Colt it stays. .

[J Miller]

And yet another opinion:

Never was any "long" in the proper cartridge name and should never be....

Joe

From the Colt website "Colt revolvers come in six standard calibers. Choose the classic .45 Long Colt or any of five others to suit your taste: .357, .32/20, .38 Special, .44/40, .38/40." (my bold)

So Joe, you should probably call Colt Mfg. and tell them they're all wrong.

Chas.,
Terry is right about Colt. Think about this, if Colt is right and the name is .45 Long Colt, why do they stamp their guns with the cartridge designation ".45 Colt"?
And why is every cartridge case made by every manufacture since the 1870s head stamped .45 Colt?

There is no cartridge named the .45 SHORT Colt, never was. There is NO cartridge named the .45 LONG Colt. The .45 Colt always was and always will be the .45 Colt.

Why do otherwise intelligent people insist on arguing about things when they are DEAD wrong? And they know it!

...........................................

Terry,
You sure this "long" nonsense didn't start earlier with the .45 S&W and Colt Govt rounds? Not arguing, just curious cos I heard it differently.

Joe

[Gun Smith]

Here's an article that may answer some of the above questions.

Go to: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ta...short colt htm.

[Big Bore 94]

I saw a very old box of Colt manufactured ammo about 25 years ago. It was labeled 45 LONG COLT on the box. I do believe Colt new the name of the product and knew what they were selling.

[Hawkeye2]

As far as I'm concerned it is .45 Colt period. Since there never was a .45 Colt Short, or a .45 Colt Extra Long why do we need to call it anything except .45 Colt? There is another one that is begining to burn my butt and that is .32 S&W Short. There is no such animal. There is only .32 S&W and .32 S&W Long!

[J Miller]

I saw a very old box of Colt manufactured ammo about 25 years ago. It was labeled 45 LONG COLT on the box. I do believe Colt new the name of the product and knew what they were selling.

Show Me!

I've seen one photo of one cartridge head stamped 45 Colt Govt.

I've seen a lot of ammo boxes, all marked .45 Colt.

Joe

[J Miller]

Here's an article that may answer some of the above questions.

Go to: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/ta...short colt htm.

Gun Smith,
Linkie no workie:

Not Found

The requested URL /articles/ta...short colt htm was not found on this server.

Additionally, a 404 Not Found error was encountered while trying to use an ErrorDocument to handle the request.
Apache/2.2.14 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.14 OpenSSL/0.9.7a Phusion_Passenger/2.2.11 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635 Server at www.leverguns.com Port 80

Joe

[.45colt]

I found this on the internet. it should work. these are the short rounds that Elmer is talking about in Sixguns.http://www.leverguns.com/articles/taylo ... t_colt.htm

[Old Savage]

Thanks to TERRY for his info here on the original name.

[Gun Smith]

Sorry, try www.leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm

[J Miller]

We're working on 137 years since the .45 Colt was introduced to the military as Cartridges for "Colt's Revolver, Cal; 45"

Colts Revolver, Cal; .45.JPG

.
In 1874 the "Colt's Revolver, Cal; .45" cartridge was discontinued for the universal "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Cal, .45".

Military .45 S&W ammo box.JPG

That round was the issue .45 Caliber military revolver cartridge until the 45 ACP was adopted. I'm not up on it's military nomenclature.
The "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Cal, .45" made the transition from the Martin inside primed cartridge to the now standard boxer primed version.

Now, the civilian commercial world, not being so nomenclature specific as the military is, names things to suit themselves.

The "Colt's Revolver, Cal; 45" cartridge became the .45 Colt.

The "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Cal, .45" became the .45 Colt Government.

The .45 S&W (Schofield) cartridge that the "Revolver Ball Cartridge, Cal, .45" is based on, never made it to military issue.
I have never seen one in the flesh or photographs with the larger .522" rim.

Now the .45 Colt Government as produced by the commercial ammo makers is a confused mess.
Some are head stamped .45 Colt, even though they are not really the .45 Colt. You can see this in Pacos and JimT's article. Here, I stole the pic:

45sc1 jpg.JPG

As you can see the box is correctly marked .45 Colt Government, but the cartridges are marked .45 Colt. Basically, W.R.A. Co. either got lazy and didn't change the head stamper, or the correct stamper wore out or broke and they didn't replace it.
Some are marked .45 Colt Govt.

Can you imagine going into the store and asking for a box of .45 Colts and being given a box of the .45 Colt Govt instead? Wouldn't it cause you to use an additional descriptive term to differentiate what you want from what you don't want?
From everything I've read and seen, this is where the "long Colt" nickname came to be.

I don't know about the WW I dough boys and the 1911 with it's short .45 ACP round, but I do know there is enough confusion and miss-information about the real .45 Colt and the .45 Colt Govt. to make your head swim.

Writers, including Elmer Keith are not perfect. The whole point is, the long in .45 long Colt is just a nick name. In reality, no matter what Keith, or anybody else says, there never was any ammo that was correctly called the .45 Long Colt. Never was, not since 1873.
It's just a nick name that's stuck long past is usefulness.
................................................

BB94,

I'm not sure Colt ever manufactured any ammo. I'm pretty sure that like S&W if any was put out with their name on it, it was made for them by someone else.
I'd like to see that cartridge box, and the cartridges within. I'll bet you a case of LP primers they were head stamped .45 Colt.

Joe

PS: Phew, this just tuckered me out. I'm tired and have a headache now. You guys go ahead and argue with yourselves.

[kimwcook]

Years ago, when I started shooting the 45 Colt I called it the 45 Long Colt. I didn't know any better. I agree with Terry and Joe. I've called it the 45 Colt for many a year now.

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I have been shooting the 45 Colt cartridge since 1975. I have heard once or twice of commercially loaded ammo being headstamped and labeled 45 Long Colt, but I have never seen any, either in person or on the internet. Not saying it never existed, but I have never seen any.

Today, SAAMI only recognizes the name 45 Colt, not 45 Long Colt. I agree, Colt probably has Web designers that wouldn't know a 45 Colt if it came up and bit them. I put no credence in the fact that the Colt website refers to 45 Long Colt. Commercial websites are rife with examples of misinformation.

The only time I hear the name 45 Long Colt is by gunstore clerks who just want to make sure I don't want a box of 45 ACP.

Here is an interesting article about 45 Colt and 45 Schofield headstamps by a guy who makes his living at cartridge collecting, so he should know something of what he is talking about.

http://www.oldammo.com/march08.htm

And those photos posted by J Miller of the copper cased 45 Colt rounds with the big wrinkle down near the base are very interesting. Those are rounds that used Benet priming, an internal primer. Chances are there is no headstamp on them at all. The big wrinkle is a canelure that holds an internal anvil plate in place. The priming compound was sandwiched between the case head and the anvil plate. There was no separate primer like we have today with Boxer priming or Berdan priming. Those are the very earliest 45 Colt and 45 Schofield rounds produced by the Frankford Arsenal in 1873-1875. They are not to be confused with Balloon Head cases. These are of a folded rim construction, and had an even greater internal powder capacity than Balloon head rounds. It was truly possible to stuff 40 grains of FFg into these rounds under a 250 grain bullet.

[Chas.]

It really makes no difference to me either. I don't have anything chambered for a 11.43 Colt.

[J Miller]

It really makes no difference to me either. I don't have anything chambered for a 11.43 Colt.

Chas,

That is one thing I'd love to add to my collection, a metric labeled .45 Colt cartridge. I've never seen one, but I'd like to.

Joe

[J Miller]

Driftwood Johnson,

Thanks for posting the link to that page. The author says pretty much the same thing I've been saying for years, just with better pics and a bit more information. I saved it a web page. And check out the picture of that Peters .45 Colt Govt cartridge. If anybody has one they'd be willing to sell me for my collection PLEASE contact me.

Love it.

Joe

[Beaker]

I think you all in this thread have had too much Colt 45 in the long cans.

Beaker

[Old Savage]

Wait just a minute here - I am drinking barefoot chardonay and about to go get another bottle. Update - pinot grigio now.

[gundownunder]

Whether it's right or wrong, the addition of the word "long" in the name does remove some confusion. You say 45 "long" colt and everyone knows what you mean.
We had a first time reloader from our club walk into an LGS and ask for a set of reloading dies for his 45 colt and he started to reload ammo with the 45 ACP dies that the shop sold him. His reloading skills were poor in more ways than one, and when another club member went to his home to teach him how to do it properly the error came to light.

[willygene]

im gona go shoot my 38 s&w oh no or my 38 long colt oh heck who cares it will go bang. it's a 45 for a pistol colt made it's longer than a 45 acp other than that who cares wether the box the ammo came in say's 45 colt or 45 long colt everybody here knows which is which.

[J Miller]

I don't drink Colt 45 Malt Liqueur, and I care about the incorrect use of the word "long". Don't need it, just use the correct name and you're good. Just watch out for the duffasses at the gun counter that think they know it all. You may have to smack them up side the head to get their attention.

Hee hee, why don't you guys who insist on using .45 Long Colt go over to the Ruger Forum and tell them you're gonna shoot .45 Long Colts from your New Model Vaquero.
That aught to start something.

I'll make some pop corn and watch.

Joe

[Griff]

I got 7 firearms chambered in .45 Colt. None have LC on the barrel... 5 of 'em are even foreign made... where you might expect a little confusion to arise. And let's not EVEN get on the subject of the knowledge level it takes to be a clerk in a gun store... (No offense Hobie... who stands out as a shining example of what we'd all like in our store help)!

It's a .45 COLT, period.

[Old Savage]

Griff is my authority on this and it is what is written on my Rossi 92 barrel.

[El Chivo]

thanks I'll just stick with 22 long rifle

[KCSO]

I can't believe this fight has come up again. You say potato and I say...

Good thing leverguns don't have CLIPS!

[TedH]

Personally I don't see what all the hubub is about. As long as a person knows what cartridge is in question, what does it matter?

[Van Morgan]

I don't particularly care what you purist want to call them. I will continue to shoot my 45 Long Colts.

[rjohns94]

and hear I thought the long was for rifles, where the sixguns would be shorts!!! Just kidding.

.45 colt for me. I used .45 Long Colt until I was educated here on this forum.

[O.S.O.K.]

Its all about maintaining the original designation of things.

Its 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 45 ACP, etc.

Now you might call the 454 Cassull a 45 Long Colt but I think Dick would get upset.

[klhill]

I've never understood why some people get bent out of shape over 45 Colt vs. 45 Long Colt.LOTS of cartridges have multiple (and accepted) names.8MM Mauser? should be 8mmx57mm. 38 Special should be 38 Smith & Wesson Special. 9mmLuger should be 9mm Parabellum.45-70 should be 45 Government or maybe 45-2.1 What about the dash cartridges? 30-30 should be called 30 WCF and 32-20, 38-40, 44-40 are 32 WCF, 38 WCF, and 44 WCF. 44 Special = 44 Smith & Wesson Special, 44 Mag is really 44 Remington Mag.the list could could on and on.............

[J Miller]

I've never understood why some people get bent out of shape over 45 Colt vs. 45 Long Colt.LOTS of cartridges have multiple (and accepted) names.8MM Mauser? should be 8mmx57mm. 38 Special should be 38 Smith & Wesson Special. 9mmLuger should be 9mm Parabellum.45-70 should be 45 Government or maybe 45-2.1 What about the dash cartridges? 30-30 should be called 30 WCF and 32-20, 38-40, 44-40 are 32 WCF, 38 WCF, and 44 WCF. 44 Special = 44 Smith & Wesson Special, 44 Mag is really 44 Remington Mag.the list could could on and on.............

klhill,

All of the other cartridges you mentioned are correctly named in various manners. Other than the original military designation the .45 Colt was never named anything but .45 Colt by gun or ammo manufacturers. That is the difference. Many of the names you posted are the military designation and civilian names of the same cartridge. The .45 Colt's military designation was listed by myself several posts above. Neither it nor the commercial name contains the word "long".
.45 Colt is the correct name, .45 long Colt is not.

Why is that so hard to understand and accept?

Joe

[klhill]

I'm not defending or supporting the use of "45 Long Colt".Just saying that both 45 Colt and 45 Long Colt have been in use for many years by many people.For whatever reason there are many cartridges with multiple names.WE ALL KNOW THAT IF SOMEONE SAYS 45 Long Colt they are referring to 45 Colt. SAME THING!

[J Miller]

I'm not defending or supporting the use of "45 Long Colt".Just saying that both 45 Colt and 45 Long Colt have been in use for many years by many people.For whatever reason there are many cartridges with multiple names.WE ALL KNOW THAT IF SOMEONE SAYS 45 Long Colt they are referring to 45 Colt. SAME THING!

Repeating a lie over and over does not make it truth ... except to democrats.

Repeating incorrect nomenclature does not make it right, it is not the same thing.

To those who we have tried to educate about this and who insist in using the incorrect name ... you do not want to use it, you do not want to learn. You just want to argue.
You can only beat a dead horse so long.

I need a rest from you stubborn rebellious guys. So for now I will not respond to any thread where the poster uses the word long in .45 Colt. Any information I may have that might help said poster will go unsaid.

Joe

[Van Morgan]

[Repeating a lie over and over does not make it truth ... except to democrats.

Repeating incorrect nomenclature does not make it right, it is not the same thing...(cut)...

I need a rest from you stubborn rebellious guys. So for now I will not respond to any thread where the poster uses the word long in .45 Colt. Any information I may have that might help said poster will go unsaid.

Joe

Don't even go there. From the Forum rules "We discuss most anything here other than politics... "

And I learned my rebelliousness in Central Illinois. Class of '77 EIU.

[Buck Elliott]

Beats me why a bunch of fairly intelligent, literate, GROWN men would waste so much time, energy and bandwidth arguing this point....!?!

FWIW, I have called the cartridge-in-question the .45 COLT since I can remember. During my lifetime, I have heard it referred to as the .45 Long Colt, more times than I could count. I never let it confuse me, and always figured it may have served to un-confuse the speaker/writer/whoever.

BTW, I have several revolvers chambered to ".45 LC" as per the legend on the barrel. May not make it right, but doesn't make it all that wrong, either.

I think some of you boys need to recognize that not everyone is so well-educated in this regard as you like to think you are, and let the so-called "problem" drop. Things change -- like it or not.

As for me, I'll go on calling it the ".45 Colt" cartridge, and accept the fact that some other folks feel the need to insert "Long" into its nomenclature, and move on with life. Last time I looked, there were some truly important issues to be dealt with...

[Chas.]

thanks I'll just stick with 22 long rifle

Are you sure it's not just 22 rifle? If it is, Joe will be along soon with his shorts in a wad to correct you.

[Buck Elliott]

thanks I'll just stick with 22 long rifle

Are you sure it's not just 22 rifle? If it is, Joe will be along soon with his shorts in a wad to correct you.

Now that one is funny...

Because it started out as the ".22 Long," and had its name lengthened with the addition of a 40-grain bullet in place of the "long's" 28-gr. pill, making it a better rifle cartridge...

[.45colt]

Buck wrote: " I think some of you boys need to recognize that not everyone is so well-educated in this regard as you like to think you are, and let the so-called "problem" drop. Things change -- like it or not.

As for me, I'll go on calling it the ".45 Colt" cartridge, and accept the fact that some other folks feel the need to insert "Long" into its nomeclature, and move on with life. Last time I looked, there were some truly important issues to be dealt with..."
THANK YOU BUCK. GOD BLESS.

[Old Savage]

Beats me why the "Beats me why anyone would care" crew care enough to reply. So, we have the "45 Colt crowd", the "45 Long Colt" crowd and the "Beats me why anyone would care" crowd.

[Buck Elliott]

Just thought I'd throw a monkey wrench in the middle of the ridiculous, specious arguments, so maybe we could get on with other pleasantries...

I seriously doubt that proponents of either point of view will be swayed by the infallable, immutable logic of the other side. Sounds like "jousting at windmills" to me.

No hurt; no blood; no foul...

[J Miller]

[Repeating a lie over and over does not make it truth ... except to democrats.

Repeating incorrect nomenclature does not make it right, it is not the same thing...(cut)...

I need a rest from you stubborn rebellious guys. So for now I will not respond to any thread where the poster uses the word long in .45 Colt. Any information I may have that might help said poster will go unsaid.

Joe

Don't even go there. From the Forum rules "We discuss most anything here other than politics... "

And I learned my rebelliousness in Central Illinois. Class of '77 EIU.

Van Morgon,
I've been here a lot longer than you, have many thousands more posts than you (14,714 to your 12) and do not need you quoting rules to me.
I done went there. What are you gonna do ... revoke my range privileges?

TTHHPPPPPPPT.JPG

Joe

[Griff]

I'm going to generalize here, so don't go takin' it personal like. For in truth, I fit the following stereotype fairly well, leastways, as well as anyone could. Those of you that refer to it as the "long" Colt, where did you 1st hear of that designation? A buddy, or a gun salesman? If I were to wager, neither of whom owned one, and possibly had never even seen one. But, since they were marginally more "expert" than you, their label has credence. And, lo and behold, as you delve deeeper into gunitis, you begin to explore beyond those two fonts of knowledge; and discover gun scribes that refer to the mystical "long" Colt.

Yea verily, we should ALL trust those fellars to the last vowel, for sooth, when has one of them ever varnished over a flaw, let alone uttered an untruth!

Now in my own experience, I first read of the degisnation in a western novel. Ya'll know the one... if he sez that a canyon is there, then it is. Well, that doesn't quite extrapolate to firearm accuracy. Mind ya, he's pretty good, but not flawless. I remained happily ignorant, even thru the acquisition of a BA in History and Criminal Justice. Then I read an article on cowboy action shooting and the 1983 "End of Trail". Finally, I ran across a fellar that had attended a couple. In the interim I had acquired a Colt SAA in .45. But, I still persisted in my "LC" usage. In that first year of a flowering romance with CAS I happpened to meet a collector and student of Colt's Single Action Army. Between him and the gentleman that introduced me to him & CAS, they have ed-ju-mikated this poor cowboy in the differences between popular and proper.

Included in their teachings was that short-lived government stop-gap... as well as the theorum the "long" was adopted to tell it apart from the ACP round. Since at this late date, there ARE no Army troopers to interview, but I hypothesize that the "long" name came by said men trying to ensure they got the right ammo. I can hear 'em now, "Quartermaster, doan' ya go givin' me any of that new fangled "short" ammo, I wan' the reg'lar .45 "long" Colt stuff!" As opposed to askin' fer .45 Gov't, which likely get them .45-70s!

So, as my friends said to me, why should the survivor in the cartridge wars of the last two decades in the 19th century have carry a handle to distinguish it from its little brother who didn't even last into the 20th century? As my 2 friends claimed, now that you KNOW the difference, why would you continue to use the label that identifies you as NOT knowing?

Now, I can't answer that for ya, but for me, I see no good reason to use THREE words (forty-five long Colt), when TWO do the same job. It's what editors get paid to do.

When popular parlance takes an adjective and attaches it to a proper name as part of that proper name, may make it popular, but it sure as sunrise doesn't make it proper!

By the way OS, are you sayin' yer Rossi has .45 LC on the barrel? My EMF version sez .45 Colt.

EDIT: Yer right Buck, but... I had this all typed up and couldn't NOT post it, my final words on the subject.

[Beaker]

Whew, anybody else need a long cold one?