On the subject of "big Bore" load tests: "Big bore lite"

[adirondakjack]

A couple of years ago I brewed up an ultralight, 125 gr .45 bullet for use in CAS (save the "gamer" comments, .45s compete head to head with light .38s). Well much more recently, I got a set-up working to make these in fair quantity using a Master Caster.



As you can see, we tried em both upside down and upright, finding sucessful "minimum power" CAS loads in both versions. Then somebody asked what the upside down round would do if loaded a little on the warm side. So we commenced to load and chrony some, coming up with a very nice 1150 fps load in C45S cases using 7 gr. Bullseye. A load that mimics 9mm 125s for energy and recoil, which isn't a whole lot out of a 5.5" Vaquero.

Two 1/2 gal. water jugs were enough to stop it.

entrance wounds.


exit hole in the first jug shows big expansion.


That's .820 diameter, which is to say it would fit just nicely inside the rim of a quarter.

I leave it to the reader to decide what it's good for, but it was a fun experiment.

FWIW the same load with the uprght bullet at 1200 fps destroyed 2 water jugs, holed a third, and dented a 2X4 backer with almost no expansion. Still tore up the first couple of jugs pretty bad, but the bullet ended up around .500....

[Terry Murbach]

THAT IS TOO COOL, JACK !!! THE MANSTOPPER [JR ] LIVES !!!

[adirondakjack]

THAT IS TOO COOL, JACK !!! THE MANSTOPPER [JR ] LIVES !!!

Thank you, Sir!

I dunno that I would wanna use it to take out an assailant through a barrier, , but let's just say a couple of them in a Bond Derringer might make excellent "get off me" medicine.

[gimdandy]

Don't personally have any interest in shooting cass myself but I do enjoy all the gun related stuff that it brings around.
For instance Adirondakjack and all his work w/ 45 cal..........extremely interesting...THANK YOU
Used to shoot 38 148 HBWC and fooled around a little bit loading them backwards. They were cast dead soft and on small vermin were absolutely devastating also. Lots of fun

[Ben_Rumson]

I always look forward to your Range Reports... Keep'em coming whenever you can.. & thanks a bunch of Mucho ..

[rjohns94]

very kewl info. thanks

[Hobie]

Neat and interesting.

[jd45]

Jack, these things are peaking my interest as PD projectiles. But, I have questions as to the effectiveness of them being able to stop a perp in a timely, (read that immediately) manner. For instance, have you put on a Kevlar vest & allowed your partner to knock you down with a load using this projectile? (insert laugh-track here). Seriously, I wonder about such a light bullet & it pancaking on the surface to be able to STOP someone intending to do another harm. What can you tell me? Thanx from a possible cash customer, jd45

[firefuzz]

Back in the 60's and 70's it was not unheard of, in some areas fairly common, to load 148gr HBWC .38spec rounds in this manner for LE. "Star" brand bullets even had a "heel" around the nose that allowed for the addition of a gas check to allow for some pretty heavy loads. Expansion to "nickel" size or greater was the norm. I know of at least three LE shootings using them with devestating results on soft targets. We later proved that on hard targets or even heavy clothing they were less than satisfactory. A lot of the time the rounds would begin to keyhole at about 15yds. It needs to be remembered also that at that time the standard police ammo was usually either 148gr LRN or 148gr FMJ. Compared to these rounds the inverted HBWC was quite a man stopper.

Rob

[adirondakjack]

Jack, these things are peaking my interest as PD projectiles. But, I have questions as to the effectiveness of them being able to stop a perp in a timely, (read that immediately) manner. For instance, have you put on a Kevlar vest & allowed your partner to knock you down with a load using this projectile? (insert laugh-track here). Seriously, I wonder about such a light bullet & it pancaking on the surface to be able to STOP someone intending to do another harm. What can you tell me? Thanx from a possible cash customer, jd45

The short answer is I simply don't know. The bullet was designed for low velocity, low recoil use in action games where .45s do compete head to ehad with .38s and .32s. Comboined with Cowboy .45 Special brass, it absolutely will shoot well right down to the minimum 60PF SASS has instituted, making the caliber wars finally and totally moot. Ya wanna run .32s, have at it, but you can no longer count on having less recoil to deal with than yer .45-shooting pard.....

In the upside down, "monkey bullet" configuration at speed, we simply wanted to see how they would expand. At 1150 fps, the 125 is an equal to a 125 9MM in terms of energy, and will dump ALL of that inside a soft target at least 6" thick. Truth be told, (and further experiments will probably show, when I get time), it MIGHT be more effective in a "meat" target at 1000 fps, where it might expand a little slower, yet still expand, and drive a little deeper than it does at 1150, where the "parachute" opens fully and immediately.

Since I also happen to have a rolling block chambered in C45S, I wanna play a bit with that. If we can keep em on the paper at modest ranges, I expect it would be a DRT medicine for yard pests up to yote size..... Further, in the rightside up configuration at maybe 1400 fps, out of the rifle, ain't nothing much gonna walk away unfazed aside from "big" critters. That .452 bullet becomes ALL meplat after a short distance of penetration.... (think of a .410 slug only heavier).

[olyinaz]

Thanks for posting that! Very interesting indeed.

Best,
Oly

[magyars4]

AJ,
Nice looking bullet.
Two questions.... have you thought about trying to stack two of them in a standard 45 Colt shell?
and
are you producing them for sale?
Regards,
magyars4

[O.S.O.K.]

I remember when the super light 38 Special gamers started showing up for the matches. They really thought they were something being able to outshoot guys with 44's and 45's pushing 200-250 grian boolits 800 fps. Their loads were so light that you could easily see the rounds go downrange.

My load was 250 grain Laser cast boolits over 7 grains of W231 for 800 fps in the Vaqueros and 1000 fps from the Marlin Cowboy. Gives recoil very similar to black powder loads which was the idea. I enjoyed this and when I came out on top of a match, it was very gratifying.

If I were starting today, I'd probably get 38 Specials and load 125 grain bullets over some W231 for around 700 fps. This would be much cheaper and produce minimal recoil - but still more than the popgun loads that many now use.

I've considered starting to shoot CAS again - but I'd just stick with my old loads - my Vaqueros are sighted in for them and the Cowboy likes em a lot too. I'll just enjoy the look on the other's faces and the remarks about my "cannons" and such

Yes, the featured loads in this thread are indeed "gamer" loads, but that's pretty much the norm now in CAS.

Very interesting post - thanks!

[adirondakjack]

AJ,
Nice looking bullet.
Two questions.... have you thought about trying to stack two of them in a standard 45 Colt shell?
and
are you producing them for sale?
Regards,
magyars4

I have not stacked em, and would be leary of pressure if I did. Even when pushed over 7gr Bullseye, the upright bullet runs faster than the inverted one, even with the extra case capacity. I believe this is because the hollow base expands upon ignition when the bullet is upright, delaying motion of the bullet by gripping the case tight, helping build a bit more pressure, and give a better burn.

Yes, I am offereing them for sale via cowboy45special.com. I just went and bought 350 lbs of lead today, and will be getting 400 more Saturday, because I am already behind in production....

With regard the gamer load bit, of course they are intended as gamer loads. The bullet, coupled with the C45S case, gives the .45 shooter the OPTION of having complete parity with the gamer .38 or even .32 shooter, should he NOT want to trade his .45s for .38s or .32s. When they do away with the timer in CAS (or the targets shoot back), I will revert to 250s at 800fps like I started with.

What else it might be good for, a training load for a 1911 (they feed in my SA Champion, and with a fair dose of 700X or BE, will cycle a stock spring), or a hot, light, fast round in any .45 is purely coincidental.

[Markbo]

Heck I'd try some just for the fun of it. I think they could be just the ticket for small game and varmints. Might be just the thing to get some folks to shoot the "Big 'ol .45" without worry. Not everyone like big booms and recoil like I do.