The lever Action - a hunter's rifle

Post by **Old Savage** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:15 am

For those who would get close to the game.

jbm1968 · Post by **jbm1968** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:59 am

Thats way they call it hunting and not killing. I have heard that (or something close to it) said for a long time. It seems like levergunners are more likely to be interested in the process instead of the end result.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:38 am

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:43 am

That is true. I love hunting Woodchucks with a 32-20 or a 25-20 with open iron sights. It seems the standard Woodchuck gun around here has a 25x scope, a bipod, and a muzzle velocity around 4,000 fps, making 400 yard shots common. To me, that's target practice, not hunting. Same with deer. Of course, as I write this, I'm sure the archery boys are saying the same thing about those who use leverguns.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:56 am

100%---Been there and done that with the scoped laser guns. Back in the seventies, I shot 2 deer with the 7 mag. They dropped instantly. Lost a bit of meat. I said, "geeze, this ain't no fun, was like murdering them. I will go as far to say I would give up hunting if it had to be with a scoped bolt gun unless....................it was a nice Model 54 or pre-war M-70--maybe a Remington 30s------------Sixgun

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 9:49 am

Where I hunt, long range shots aren't an option. If game is even 200 yards away, I probably won't see it.

This is probably a good thing, because after 100 yards, my shooting goes down hill.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:04 am

I've still got a couple of the "special purpose" super accurate bolt-action death-beams in the closet, but the plain fact is that while they are excellent firearms, they just aren't "personable".

A bolt action gun is a gun that does a defined job and then gets put back in storage.

I feel like it's OK to have a lever-gun with me whether I need it or not.

Lever-guns are friendly.

45-70- · Post by **45-70-** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:07 am

I take a lot of ribbing from family for using leverguns but the past 2 years since moving here, I have scored. I also find my mind thinking a lot different now. I have let many deer go wtihout even pulling the trigger. I have shot one deer a year these last 2 years and no more even though I could have. I love going to the woods and carrying a gun but I am just not big on killing something anymore. I enjoy watching the animals and I get a lot of satisfaction out of knowing I could have popped one if I needed to. I find myself hesitant to kill animals just to get rid of them. I chased a opossum out of my garge the other day. A few years ago I would have just shot it. I think as I have gotten older and have a family, I see things in a different light.

Well, thats a lot of rambling that no one asked for, sorry. Am I the only one like this? Dont get me wrong, I am not turning into an anti-hunter, as I love to hunt. I just dont find myself willing to pull the trigger so much after locating the animal

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:14 am

Chief,
Have not shot anything living in over 30 years,
still love to shoot.
Just go out there & make noise, the critters don't want to be around us humans anyway

86er · Post by **86er** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 10:26 am

I represent clients of all kinds on our hunting trips. I thoroughly enjoy gettting close and I get a kick out of using leverguns or just "old" cartridges in general. There are several instances I can think of where I discuss the option of a scoped rifle shooting an ample bottle neck cartridge over others. There are a few instances where I recommend a caliber and gun other than a lever OR a "regular" scoped rifle.

You see - there are many folks who save and scrape for a hunt of a lifetime. Ultimately they would (of course) like a trophy to go along with that hunt. This may be there one opportunity. I am responsible for making sure the customer knows what the opportunities will be and how to maximize them.

Recent antelope hunts come to mind. I advised every customer of the average range we were seeing them at. I also discussed the probability of seeing one at long range and the chance of closing the distance.

A perfect example is the elk hunt with CRS recently. I knew the elk were out in the wide open flats in large groups. It is nearly impossible to get withing typical lever rifle with open sights/cartridge range under these circumstances. We discussed this at length. CRS chose to stick to his 1886 45-90 with open sights and limit himself to 150 yards. He left the .338Mag with scope at home to avoid even the temptatation to use it. We could have easily got one at 300 yards with the right equipment. However, we went home empty handed. CRS was okay with that from the beginning. On the other hand, I understand and I would not judge nor shun a hunter who chose to capitalize on the opportunity. He or she is no less of a hunter than CRS and I were.

When we have dangerous game hunts some customers specifically request that no follow up shots be fired by the guide/PH unless an urgent situation arises. Under these conditions I have often advised a larger caliber and more precise shooting. One of my considerations is what gun I or my staff is using to back-up the customer and the customers willingness to switch to a different gun after the inital shot if it is not effective enough.

I get customers that say they cannot see well at a certain distance or in poor lighting. They want to use there old favorite rifle. Again I have a long discussion about the probabilities. Some will opt to use whatever technology helps them shoot more accurately or further, earlier or later. Others come to terms with limiting their opportunity and the realism that they may go home empty handed.

Lastly, I get new hunters that are guided by their mentor, the internet, magazine article or their own sense of nostalgia, etc. For young hunters and first timers I encourgage them to use whatever helps them shoot best and allows them to take advantage of an opportunity. I've had kids that could shoot sights fine out to maybe 50 yards but were just too unsteady past that range. With a scope they tend to be accurate much further out. It is important for the hunt to be successful to the greatest extent it can be - but more important for the kill to be quick and somewhat uneventful. I don't want to turn off or discourage anyone with a bad experience. And then there are my handicapped customers. They use whatever equipment can accomodate their needs - and I'm sure nobody would make one negative comment about it. And then there is the rare person that actually depends on the meat to feed a family - and must take whatever fair opportunity they can.

Levergunners inherently know they need to get close to the game. The appreciation for the equipment and its limitations surpasses the chance of "not getting one". For those passionate about the traditional lever action, success with the equipment and within its limitation is the reward and any other way would not be as satisfying.

This does not make the others any less of hunters or sportsman. It is a matter of personal taste.

I have bow-only hunters and muzzleloader affectionados that are at peace with their limitation. Then I have long range high powered folks who find that same feeling of success and accomplishment in making a great shot at long range by maximizing their equipment choices.

We are all on the same team regardless of equipment. I support any legal methods that make my customers happy - regardless of how I would do it personally.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:54 am

KirkD wrote:That is true. I love hunting Woodchucks with a 32-20 or a 25-20 with open iron sights. It seems the standard Woodchuck gun around here has a 25x scope, a bipod, and a muzzle velocity around 4,000 fps, making 400 yard shots common. To me, that's target practice, not hunting. Same with deer. Of course, as I write this, I'm sure the archery boys are saying the same thing about those who use leverguns.

The primitive archery guys say that about the guys with compound bows or crossbows!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:33 pm

...and the seal-clubbers, knife-hunters and spear-chuckers say it about the primitive archers...

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:44 pm

This could lead to deeper debate about what constitutes hunting.

Is shooting deer over a feeder on a private hunting ranch where the whitetails are selectively bred really hunting, or is it just slaughtering free range livestock?

45-70- · Post by **45-70-** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:58 pm

Jason, you bring up a good question but its one I am not going to get into a discussion about with anyone here. I dont want to offend anyone just because our way of thinking may be different.

I will use myself and my younger brother as examples, not saying that either of us is wrong or right. My brother spends a lot of time and money planting food plots and setting up feeders. He then sets up a box blind next to the feeder and plot and picks out the largest buck he can find. I like to walk the wheat fields along the edge and pick different spots to set and see what shows up. We both score but he scores faster and will have a larger buck.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:07 pm

45-70- wrote: I will use myself and my younger brother as examples, not saying that either of us is wrong or right. My brother spends a lot of time and money planting food plots and setting up feeders. He then sets up a box blind next to the feeder and plot and picks out the largest buck he can find. I like to walk the wheat fields along the edge and pick different spots to set and see what shows up. We both score but he scores faster and will have a larger buck.

I don't think there is anything wrong with either method as they both potentially put good healthy meat in the freezer.

If one is after game primarily or soley for the purpose of food, it makes sense to sit in a tree over bait or a food plot. If my survival depended upon it, it's what I'd do. Still, I can't classify it under my personal definition of hunting.

I guess the definition is a very personal one.

I don't think badly of anyone who takes game within the bounds of the law and safety regardless of what method they use. However, I still maintain that not all game shooting is hunting.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:13 pm

Well said, 86er. I usually take 3 rifles with me on any given hunt depending on the location & opportunities I expect to find. Among them will always be my Remington 700BDL in 7mmRemMag; it's loads will vary depending on game. If I anticipate close in shots in deer or smaller game, I will make one of my 94 Winchester rifles in .30-30 my primary rifle, the Remington as backup. Then, I choose my second backup, which will either be my 1886 in .45-70 or .375 Marlin w/4X scope (that choice depends on weather expected, choice of primary rifle, or just plain "want to").

For this year, I'm planning on making my Sharps the primary weapon for any hunting I get in. Don't know what it will be, as the CFO hasn't released funding for such yet!

Having hunted in CA for many years, just seeing legal game is a treat. I have always been astounded that the average success rate statewide on deer is only ~7%. Having taken four deer out of the last ten years I hunted there, I must assume there've been a LOT of folks that get skunked A LOT! It is no wonder that such folks go a little feverish when they visit places like CO & WY that have an abundance of game, where even average hunters do well.

My early mentor taught, and I've come to share his view, that hunting is an opportunity, but it's measure of success is the comraderie and experience of the wild that is gained. The taking of game, is like icing on the cake. Some folks don't like cake w/o icing; some do. Simple as that. Same argument can be used as to methodology.

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 1:30 pm

Griff wrote:Having hunted in CA for many years, just seeing legal game is a treat.

Boy is that an understatement

I have always been astounded that the average success rate statewide on deer is only ~7%. Having taken four deer out of the last ten years I hunted there, I must assume there've been a LOT of folks that get skunked A LOT!

Careful, I resemble that remark! Heck, I pay several hundred a year to belong to a local rod and gun club and have YET to catch a single fish there. I can use the same bait, etc, no dice. Still fun though. It's a good excuse to get my 12' boat and motor out and running on the water.

My early mentor taught, and I've come to share his view, that hunting is an opportunity, but it's measure of success is the comraderie and experience of the wild that is gained. The taking of game, is like icing on the cake. Some folks don't like cake w/o icing; some do. Simple as that. Same argument can be used as to methodology.

Like I always tell my kids, I may not be good at hunting and fishing, but I still love doing it.

And for the record, I never even knew anyone shot groundhogs (woodchucks to some) with anything but a 22LR. I grew up hunting with either a 22 or shotgun. The 22 being my first choice.

I have lots of centerfire's now, more than I need really, but the rimfires are way more fun.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:00 pm

I allways tell the uneducated to "get one of these ( a 94) it's just like shooting a shotgun". A bolt gun to me generally is like operating a machine or a device but a lever somehow is better, interesting and just makes me smile. My old BSA Hunter is a bolt made in the 50s and is old school so does appeal some but I could not stand a Tikka T3 Lite in 6.5x55 I had a few years ago. It was brilliant, sub MOA out of the box but woefully boring and felt big even though it was not.
Funny ain't it

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:07 pm

Then you have those that go hog huntin with a knife!

Just hope I dont run across the guy that bear hunts with a switch!

spud1949 · Post by **spud1949** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:27 pm

I'll say this, I've hunted with model 7, browning 86 and other rifles but my marlin 336 30/30 is the slickest, handiest, keenest packin deer rifle I own with out a doubt!

Mojo · Post by **Mojo** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 8:46 pm

You make a very good point. Those that hunt with leverguns seem to be more attuned to the hunt rather than the kill. I really find no joy in sitting in a tree and waiting for something to walk past and then shoot it. I have taken a bunch of stuff from fellow hunters for still using the outdated (to them) lever action but I feel confident that I am getting a whole lot more out of the hunt by easing through the brush with a trusty lever than those other fellows sitting in a fancy tripod stand holding a high powered long range rifle with the coke bottle scope sitting on top. Not to say that I don't own a few of those rifles too, I just don't get the same satisfaction from hunting with them that I do with a lever.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Fri Jan 25, 2008 11:13 pm

Well, for me, it's almost always a leveraction that I choose, but I have many, and it sorta depends on where I am hunting, and how much value I place, at the time, on taking home game, vs. experiencing something a bit more primitive.

Since I am older now, and have a lot of kills under my belt, I can be more content with comming home empty handed, at least sometimes.

I have taken deer with recurve bows without sights, compound bows, crossbows, leveractions both scoped and iron sighted, iron sighted muzzelloaders, scopesighted boltactions and singleshots. At present, I have pretty much retired my boltactions, at least for my local hunting, unless I am planning on hunting were a very long shot is the rule.

My favorite hunting rifle of all time is a steel framed Browning BLR leveraciton with a 2x7 Leupold, in .308 Win. But this year I killed my deer with a Winchester model 71 in .348, and I also missed a nice little buck with the same gun, due to the range, and available light. If I had had my BLR in my hands, I would not have missed. But that is OK, at least no game animal was wounded and lost.

At present I am working on upgrading my ironsights on some of my leveracitons, to sorta bridge the gap a little, but in the end, I am more then willing to accept the limitations of a more primitive weapon, at least part of the time, for the added enjoyment of using the older style guns.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 12:49 am

It's not very sporting to shoot animals that are so far away that their God-given defenses are significantly diminished. It's very similar to shooting a man in the back. Cold-blooded murder...

Humbly,
bogie

leverhunter · Post by **leverhunter** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 1:41 am

Devils advocate time: Where does a Browning BLR in say 270 WSM fit in? It is a levergun yet it is chambered for a cartridge capable of reaching waaay out there. Every one that I have seen has open sights like a Marlin or Winchester etc yet can be scoped as well. Of course they are also chambered in more traditional bush cartridges too.

I don't own one but have considered one for my son who shoots left handed. For the record, I do have a 270WSM but it is a Savage bolt, one of only two bolt guns I own, wait three as I have a 303 Brit but I don't count it as any good gun owning Canadian should have one.
The remainder of my rifles are levers.
Consider the pot stirred lol

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:52 am

You have a point my 99s, 88 and BLR are all scoped and good with proper power considerations to 275 or more and shoot 3x groups of .75" or less - no different than a bolt. The comment really applies to the more "traditional" levers with round or flat nose bullets. Tubular mags you know.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 2:55 am

But I must say the scoped 30-30, 45-70, 35 Rem, and 25-35 have shot as well, just less reasonable range.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:42 am

Bogie35 wrote:It's not very sporting to shoot animals that are so far away that their God-given defenses are significantly diminished. It's very similar to shooting a man in the back. Cold-blooded murder...

Humbly,
bogie

+1

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:12 am

This year I'll be doing a lot of scouting and hiking with a levergun, and I probably won't shoot anything. The only game I intend to go after is deer during deer season, and coyotes if I stumble across one. Other than that it's about getting out there, being prepared defensively, and practicing carrying the gun.

I'm reading about those who don't want to shoot a deer from far away. I kind of agree on the distance, but I don't want to shoot a deer that has seen me. I think it's more fair to be stealthy and take him so that he didn't know what hit him. I saw a fork buck this year that saw me first, and I hesitated on the shot. Thinking back later, I believe that him seeing me contributed to the hesitation. My one deer was taken while he was feeding, he never saw me (20 yards). I think I prefer it that way.

I talked to one hunter in Central CA and his "strategy" was to walk the roads and trails and see if he could flush a deer, then shoot it as it ran away. He shot several from behind, including one shot that slit the deer's belly lengthwise, causing the guts to fall out onto the ground. I don't think that's for me. But hey, we don't get that many opportunities for a shot, so who knows?

The CA statewide deer take average is more like 15% because half of the hunters don't send in their tags. The 7% is the amount of tags they receive. Yes it is hard to see game here, but I did see six deer last year (though no shots). You can't just drive out somewhere for the first time and expect to score. It takes some scouting. I think a lot of Californians go out once in the season and don't score because of that. I went out at least 6 times each season, and scouted quite a bit beforehand.

In my county the tag report is about 4.8%, and the estimated take is 7.5%. That means it will be 13 seasons before I get another one! I'm just glad the good Lord saw fit to give me my deer up front. Kind of as a welcome to hunting.

Ravenman · Post by **Ravenman** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 5:27 am

It's not the gun that makes the real hunter!
You got to know your limitations whatever you use - bow, handgun, rifle or levergun.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 9:07 am

I've hunted with bolt guns, pistols, muzzleloaders, bows, and single shots for years.

There just something about the way my Marlins feel when I'm out in the woods. They don't seem to hamper my progress like the others do. They seem light as a feather and handy. They add joy to my outdoor experience. I wouldn't have 7 of them if it weren't for that feeling.

I'm 51 and I can't see well enough to shoot a long ways anyhow.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 7:01 pm

Well, I don't know where this thread is going, but for me the long and the short of it is, I take my game where I see it, as long as the weapon I have in my hands at the time, is capable and I am capable. However, I won't take an unsafe or unresonable shot with a low precentage of possible sucess, although, I must admit in the past, sometimes, my blood pressure has clouded my judgement a little bit, at times. But as I get older, I take less marginal shots.

The leveraction is a hunter's rifle, but I don't use leveractions to challenge myself, if fact, I have often chosen leveractions, because I thought they were the best choice, espacally rifles like my Browning BLR with scope. However, I often use other leveractions, but again never on purpose to make the hunt more challenging, I use them because I love carrying an ironsighted leveraction, more then any other gun, and I enjoy the experience of actually handling and shooting the older style guns. If I want to challenge myself, I will pick up my Martin Hatfield Takedown Recurve Bow, touch up my old style Bear Razorheads with a flat bastard file and go hunting.

Swampman · Post by **Swampman** » Sat Jan 26, 2008 10:29 pm

I just don't think of the BLR when I think of a leveraction rifle. It's something else. I'm not sure what though.

leverhunter · Post by **leverhunter** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:18 am

Old Savage wrote:You have a point my 99s, 88 and BLR are all scoped and good with proper power considerations to 275 or more and shoot 3x groups of .75" or less - no different than a bolt. The comment really applies to the more "traditional" levers with round or flat nose bullets. Tubular mags you know.

I never considered the 99 or 88 in the same context as the BLR as they are classics in their own right.

BLRs are a different breed again I think. For my son who shoots lefty but dosen't want to buy a lefty bolt action they are an ideal compromise. Myself, I prefer the traditional levers but I do have a 99. Were I to get a BLR, I would be rebarreling it to 35 Whelen.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:55 am

I put them in the same category - scope sights with fast pointy bullets.

Mike-in-WV · Post by **Mike-in-WV** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 10:28 am

After years of hunting Deer, Bear, Elk and other critters with gun, Longbow, selfbow, and compound I have herd this argument many times over the years and it will probably continue for many more years.
If anyone is willing to fight the elements , hike for miles finding just the right spot, work in the hot sun all day planting food for critters, putting up tree stands and getting all skinned up and banged up in the process and sitting there in the freezing weather with a safety belt on trying to stay awake and then being able to draw back on that deer with stiff and sore muscles 20 yards away without it seeing you is not an easy way to get Deer ,Bear or anything else.
Sitting on the edge of a farmers pasture or cornfield or Soy beans or sitting on a trail in the woods leading to that field with a rifle while your leaning against a tree and trying to hold still and keep from freezing, sneezing or farting all day is not an easy way to hunt.
Walking around in the woods , climbing slippery hillsides and tripping over branches and logs all day in search of that elusive big buck is not a fun day either. You sweat and then freeze , your muscles ache and your tired as hell and then there he is, that monster buck. You take careful aim and you drop him at 150 yards with open sights. Great shot!. It was all over in a split second but it took months of scouting and prep.Now all you have to do is gut him and drag him back the way you came in . About 4 miles up and down the mountain sides,Lol.
No matter how you look at it it's all hunting and nothing easy about any of it. The methods all have good and bad sides to them specially if you hate 4- wheelers like I do.
As for long shots and the 30-30 I believe 150 yards is a LONG shot with open sights no matter what caliber you have! So many times people make statements that the 30-30 is only good out to 200 yards. That may be true but any other rifle is only good that far to if your shooting open sights. Mike

donw · Post by **donw** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 11:40 am

ravenman has it correct, IMHO.

i'm primarily a bowhunter. have been for most of my life. mostly recurves without sights and longbows. i equate the lever rifle with open sights as being nearly the same as a bows with sights.

one thing i've noticed that has not been mentioned is about the USE of scopes. whether on levers, bolts or semi's.

it's not generally understood by the NON-shooting community that the only advantage the scope gives the shooter is the ability to SEE the target more clearly. placing the bullet is still up to the ability of the shooter to hold in steady and apply the trigger squeeze properly. if the shooter does not do what he is supposed to do, long or close range, he will miss...period. they, non-shooters, generally believe a scoped rifle means an automatic 'kill'

FALPhil · Post by **FALPhil** » Sun Jan 27, 2008 4:42 pm

FWiedner wrote:...and the seal-clubbers, knife-hunters and spear-chuckers say it about the primitive archers...

HEY!! I resemble that remark!