Winchester 94 .357 Legacy - lead fouling

[Bob H]

I have a late production Winchester Legacy .357 (24" barrel) which I use only for paper punching. I use store bought hard cast .357 158g RN bullets over 4.5g of TightGroup or 6.0g of Unique which keep me in the black at 50 metres using iron sights. Even with these light loads the bullets exit the 24" barrel at 1,100 - 1,200 fps. The barrel leed (first 1/2" or so) always seems to suffer heavy lead fouling which is difficult if not impossible to scrub out during cleaning. The remainder of the bore doesn't appear to suffer this fouling. I've got in the habit of firing a few copper-plated rounds to finish up with as this seems to scrub out the streaks of lead. I prefer lead bullets as they seem to have the edge on accuracy over the copper-plated alternatives we have available to us here in the U.K (soft/hollow points are banned).

Is the lead fouling I describe common in these rifles? It doesn't appear to affect accuracy, it's just obstinate to remove.

Thanks for reading and any advice.

Bob H
England, U.K.

[J Miller]

Bob,

Welcome to the forum.

I'm not totally up on the .357s, but there are several guys here who are. They'll be around directly.

Joe

[CEMENTHEAD]

You already reload......sooooo....... Why not firelap the barrel?

Beartooth Bullets has alot of info on this procedure.

Hope this helps. Thanks, Tom

[J Miller]

Bob,

Me again. A couple thoughts:

Slug the bore to get the grove diameter. Generally you need the bullet to be .001" to .002" larger than grove diameter. This is more true for rifles than handguns.

If you have access to, or a gunsmith who has cerosafe, do a chamber cast to see what kind of lead you have in front of the chamber. If there is a long jump the burning powder could be flowing around the bullet base and softening it. This will cause really bad fouling when combined with powder residue.

If your hard cast bullets are bevel based, try to find some flat based bullets. That one thing can make a really big difference in some guns.

Just some thoughts till our other .357 owners pipe up.

Joe

[Bob H]

Bob,

Me again. A couple thoughts:

Slug the bore to get the grove diameter. Generally you need the bullet to be .001" to .002" larger than grove diameter. This is more true for rifles than handguns.

If you have access to, or a gunsmith who has cerosafe, do a chamber cast to see what kind of lead you have in front of the chamber. If there is a long jump the burning powder could be flowing around the bullet base and softening it. This will cause really bad fouling when combined with powder residue.

If your hard cast bullets are bevel based, try to find some flat based bullets. That one thing can make a really big difference in some guns.

Just some thoughts till our other .357 owners pipe up.

Joe

Joe and Tom

Thanks for the quick response and tip about bevel base vs flat base bullets and fire lapping. Most of the pre-cast seem to have the bevel base - perhaps they fall from the mould easier? The only flat base ones I remember are those I used to cast myself many years ago using a Lyman mould. I'll keep an eye out next time I'm buying a supply.

Thanks again

Bob H

[COSteve]

Welcome! Pull up a log and enjoy a spot of 'joe' (we don't do much tea here around the campfire).

To your issues; Another area to consider is your powder choice. TiteGroup in particular is a very hot burning powder and I've not had good luck with it and lead bullets at any speed. I'd give a powder like Universal a try and/or ask the good folks here what use with their lead bullets.

Just a thought.

[TedH]

First and foremost in shooting cast bullets accurately and cleanly is having a good fit in your bore. I would suspect your bullets are a bit undersize and you are getting some blow by that's causing your leading. I shoot a lot of cast from my Rossi 357 that are sized .360" If you can, slug that portion of the barrel and see what it measures. Then get some cast bullets .002" larger.

[Cliff]

Another idea is use of a gas check. This seems to help avoid leading as mentioned. An inexpensive gas check can be made by using plastic such as styrofoam found in a coffee cup or commercially packaged meat. When prepping your cases for reloading, chamfer the case mouths a tiny bit, then after dropping your powder charge, press the mouth of the loaded case against the styrofoam, cutting a plug using the case mouth. Not hard to do, then let the bullet when you put it into the case push the styrofoam plug down into the case. It will usually stay inplace and acts as a heat shield on the base of the bullet. It is consumed completely in the barrel when fired, leaving no residue. It actually will put down a very-very thin (invisible) film of plastic in the bore. When you clean your barrel, most powder solvents will wash it out along with any powder debris. It is not a case filler so there should be no danger of bulging or ringing in the barrel. It has worked for me. Good Luck.

[Griff]

Bob,
and Welcome to the Forum. There are guys 'round here that're FAR more knowledgeable than me. But I'll take a guess or two!

FWIW, there are several things that can cause leading. Chief among them are bullet size, hardness, lube & bore condition. "Hardcast" is a nebelous term. I don't consider them hard until they're above 18Bhn or so. However, @ 11-1200fps, you should be able to shoot much softer bullets w/o leading.

Joe already tole ya 'bout selecting properly sized boolits. If you're getting leading in the "leade" and your accuracy is still acceptable, bullet size might not be the primary culprit. Leading towards the muzzle end of the barrel is indicative of insufficient or inadequate lube, so let's ignore that. Which leads (present tense of "led", don't ya just LOVE English?) me to believe the leade (that portion of the barrel where it trsistions from chamver to rifling) is cut wrong or inordinately rough.

As Joe suggested, a chamber casting to include the leade will tell you a LOT. The ONLY place I use BB bullets is in 45ACP to simplify the loading process. I don't know what angle Winchestter specs for it forcing cone in .357. But that casting will tell ya if you need work there.

BTW, please don't take offense at all the definitions and simplification, but there just might be a beginner lurkin' w/the same problem to whom that's a help.

Good luck gettin' the lead out!

[AJMD429]

It will usually stay inplace and acts as a heat shield on the base of the bullet. It is consumed completely in the barrel when fired, leaving no residue. It actually will put down a very-very thin (invisible) film of plastic in the bore. When you clean your barrel, most powder solvents will wash it out along with any powder debris. It is not a case filler so there should be no danger of bulging or ringing in the barrel. It has worked for me. Good Luck.

Where'd you hear about the STYROFOAM thing...?

That is very interesting!

[Cliff]

I read about it in either the Cast Bullet Assoc. "Fouling Shot" magazine or maybe in an issue of the "American Rifleman." The guy who wrote it up was a real genuine Rocket Scientist. Worked for NASA at that time. He got interested in how much heat was generated and for how long when a cartridge was fired. After crunching the numbers he was able to determine how much of a heat shield would be needed to protect the base of bullet from flame cutting. He worked on the heat shields on the space reentry vehicles. After the numbers were crunched he determined that plain styrofoam would work and did quite a bit of testing of it. I have used it over the years and it does offer some benefits. You can cut a whole bunch of checks out of a common styrofoam coffee cup. Others picked up on it went further with both styrofoam and harder plastics such as milk jugs and even waxed paper milk cartons. I found the coffee cups the easiest to use. Some also would buy a sheet of styrofoam and would use it as a case filler, up to quite thick with some old B.P. cases. At least I know Rocket Science is helpful from that article. Good Luck.

[El Chivo]

I haven't had any leading in my .357 Legacy, but I have in my Marlin 1894c, using 2400 and Lasercast bullets. I switched to slower powders and have not seen a recurrence. I use either SR4759 or IMR4227 with excellent results.

I believe my velocities are around 1300-1400 fps. I would bet your problem could be fixed by a cooler powder. Also that gas check idea is a nice thought, if you want to go to the trouble. Paco also discussed making gas checks out of acetate sheet film, punched out with a hole puncher and stuck on the bullet base with a dab of cement.

[Bob H]

Thanks to everone for your helpful replies and suggestions.

I'm going to try the gas-check route for starters and I'll experiment with a variety of materials including the ones mentioned.

Let you know how I get on.

Once again, many thanks...

Bob H

[CEMENTHEAD]

Pardon me....where are my manners?

Welcome to the fire Bob!

Thanks, Tom

[WyrTwister]

My suggestion is to consider resuming casting your bullets yourself ?

Try to cast big / large diameter bullets .

As long as you ate not at max pressure , I do not think you will bind ant disadvantage to shooting as big a bullet as you can , and still chamber the ammo ?

If your bullets come out too big , you can always size them down to what works best with Lee bullet sizing dies .

As far as fire lapping , I have no direct knowledge of that process .

God bless
Wyr



Joe[/quote]

Joe and Tom

Thanks for the quick response and tip about bevel base vs flat base bullets and fire lapping. Most of the pre-cast seem to have the bevel base - perhaps they fall from the mould easier? The only flat base ones I remember are those I used to cast myself many years ago using a Lyman mould. I'll keep an eye out next time I'm buying a supply.

Thanks again

Bob H[/quote]

[retmech]

If the chamber on your 94 is the same as the chamber on my .357 model 94 it is cut overly long. The distance from the end of a .357 case to the start of the rifling is .4" in my gun. You basically have a funnel which is .380 dia at one end tapering down to the rifling .4" long. Plenty of room for gas to get past the base of the bullet. Gaschecks won't help because the sides of the bullet get gas cut when it makes the jump from the case to the rifling. My best results have been with heavier (longer) bullets and ball powders like H110/296 which along with giving good ballistics tend to scour the throat. After firing lighter loads with Unique where I get throat leading if I shoot 3 or 4 of my mag loads with the Keith 173 gr bullet and 15/296 my throat is clean again. The poster who suggested a chamber cast was right on the money. Using the Lyman 358429 173 gr bullet cast out of wheel wts and sized .359 over 15/296 I get zero leading.