OT - 1911 for L.E. need advise

[jkbrea]

I am looking for some help. I need to write a proposal to my boss as to why we should allow our men and woman to carry a single action 1911 .45. I think they should carry what they are comfortable with as long as it's a high quality weapon. Some administrators are afraid of the 1911 being cocked and locked and claim it's "antiquated" and the military even went away from it, (which isn't true). I have argued that Glocks and Springfield XD's are basically single action and some carry those. We issue Sigs, which are great, but some shoot much better with the 1911's. Anyways, what I was wondering is if any of you have seen or know of an article stating the benefits of a 1911 for L.E. use. I searched but could not find one. I have the proposal about done but would like to back it up with some "expert" opinions. Thanks in advance.

[J Miller]

jkbrea,

I don't have anything I can add to your evidence, although I have read many such articles.

Have you done any searches for comments and articles by Col. Jeff Cooper?
He was a great proponent of the 1911 platform.

Joe

[JReed]

SOG (Special Operations Group) issues the 1911 to all of the Operators. If those high speed low drag killers use it it cann't be that antiquated. When you have to put a bad guy down nothing works like the .45.

[jkbrea]

J Miller, Yes I did. I found many great articles about 1911's but I was searching for one specifically aimed at the pros and cons of using it for police work. I'll check again. Thanks.

[86er]

Cylinder and Slide company had some info like that on their web site recently. I can't get their web site up and running right now though.

[jbm1968]

The FBI HRT and LA SWAT both use the 1911 in addition to military Special Ops. Be careful with that since the uneducated might think that means the 1911 is only suitable for that duty and not daily carry. Contact Kimber, I bet they could give you some great info and guidance, again be careful not to get involved commercially as that might make your proposal look like biased sales literature.

[jbm1968]

Just thought of this: Contact some training centers such as Gunsite or Thunder Ranch and ask for input, additionally, try to find other departments that issue or authorize the 1911 and see what they have.

[FALPhil]

I would drop the idea, if I were you, unless you are going to propose that only the elite will be allowed to carry them. The 1911A1 is a real pistolero's handgun, and the average cop is not a pistolero. I carried one in the Navy, and the standard protocol is hammer down on an empty chamber. You will notice that all the military units cited in this thread are not average units but highly trained "operators". I wouldn't want to live in a community where the average cop carries a 1911A1. You can just about guarantee ADs and innocent corpses, because you know that they are not going to carry hammer down on an empty chamber.

[Poohgyrr]

There are several across the country, contact the rangemaster at Tacoma PD, OR and see if they will share their study.

And check over on the LE/Military section at

http://forum.m1911.org/


It seems that some parts of the USA have heard 1911s are outdated and non PC. Other places understand 1911's are proven, very effective, and traditional.

[Charles]

There are all sorts of arguments pro and con for the 1911 pistol as a duty weapon today. I am not certain that rehashing these technical/academic arguments will carry the day. The bottom line is the "human factor". A persons confidence in his/her weapon will trump many if not most academic/technical issues.

An officers mental state is probably more important than what is on his or her hip. If an officer has confidence in the weapon they will much more effective in their work. IMHO an officer should be allowed to carry any weapon of adequate caliber they can qualify with.

When the brown noxious substance hits the ventilating system, nothing will replace an officers attitude of confidence of their weapon. The human factor trumps all of the the o ther techinal nonsense every time.

[jkbrea]

Charles...you're absolutely right. That's why I want them to carry what they are more comfortable with,(within reason), and not limit them to what an administrator who hasn't worked the streets for 10-15 years thinks.
Poohgyrr, I got the info from Tacoma and used it. Thanks

Also I don't think it's a hard gun to master. I too carried one in the Army, cocked and locked. Several MP's, many 18-19 year olds that never wanted to be there also did, and I never saw an A.D.
It wouldn't be forced on anyone, just an option for those that are willing to invest the time and $$$.

Thanks for the great info from all !!!

[kimwcook]

I PM'd you but should of read poohgyr's post.

The Tacoma PD information is a good start. I believe Kimber would be a good second. Good luck.

[Griff]

I don't have any direct data, but seem to recall an FBI study about 10 years ago that involved stats of officer involved shootings, this was about the time they were re-evaluating the decision to go the .40.

My personal choice was always the 1911, although I always qualified with higher scores using my S&W Mdl 19 or 65. Until I moved to TX we weren't allowed to carry the 1911 as Patrol Deputies, strictly the .38Spl Revolver or 9mm Beretta 92F. However, in all other duties we could carry what we wanted, as long as we qualified with it.

In the Navy, as FALPhil said, standard protocal was hammer down on an empty chamber, but... I did receive a little more training than was standard at the time. Although I do disagree with "...wouldn't want to live in a community where the average cop carries a 1911A1. You can just about guarantee ADs and innocent corpses, because you know that they are not going to carry hammer down on an empty chamber." Proper familiarization and STRESS training will provide for the public's safety.

PM on the way.

[MacEntyre]

I wouldn't want to live in a community where the average cop carries a 1911A1. You can just about guarantee ADs and innocent corpses, because you know that they are not going to carry hammer down on an empty chamber.

I understand your point, but I wonder if you've overstated it just a bit? No one knows how many CCW 1911s are carried cocked and locked in communities all over the country by ordinary people with informal training, but I would bet there are many. Where are the ADs and the corpses? If an LEO can't train for a 1911, how's it going to be better with a Glock?

[Rusty]

Back in the 70's our dept wouldn't all ow us to carry them either. What a shame. Some carried them as a back up weapon. Of course nothing says you can't use the back up weapon first, right?

Never fail to present the existence of the grip safety as well.

Rusty <><

[Scott64A]

SOG (Special Operations Group) issues the 1911 to all of the Operators. If those high speed low drag killers use it it cann't be that antiquated. When you have to put a bad guy down nothing works like the .45.

Except maybe the .357mag...

[Griff]

SOG (Special Operations Group) issues the 1911 to all of the Operators. If those high speed low drag killers use it it cann't be that antiquated. When you have to put a bad guy down nothing works like the .45.

Except maybe the .357mag...

Nah, the heavy, slow poke .45 wins out in the transfer of energy department.

[ScottT]

I carried a cocked and locked 1911 most of my law enforcement career.

But, I would not recommend it. It is an expert's gun and it is a fine gun for gunfighting. But police officers by and large are not properly trained to be gunfighters like some of the elite groups cited here.

I love cops, but most police officers are not competent with their handguns.

If you do it strictly on what the individual officer "feels comfortable with" you are going to get some who carry it as a status symbol and they will be your problem.

[Poohgyrr]

Yup, the bottom line is good all around training is perhaps the most important part, right after the local politics (what do people believe, what's the budget and which cuts are most likely to be approved and least likely to make unwanted trouble, how do we get what we need without causing grief, etc.......)

Here, documented training might prevent court. It will make a difference before and during court.

Who knows how to reason with the Boss and what package will both of you be comfortable with??

And if primary on duty is a no no, then maybe backup and off duty can be approved. In any case, the individual will reap the benefits, and penalties, of the decision on what to carry, how it is used, and how that use is explained. Life is not boring....

[Hobie]

I would drop the idea, if I were you, unless you are going to propose that only the elite will be allowed to carry them. The 1911A1 is a real pistolero's handgun, and the average cop is not a pistolero. I carried one in the Navy, and the standard protocol is hammer down on an empty chamber. You will notice that all the military units cited in this thread are not average units but highly trained "operators". I wouldn't want to live in a community where the average cop carries a 1911A1. You can just about guarantee ADs and innocent corpses, because you know that they are not going to carry hammer down on an empty chamber.

As opposed to a Glock or Sigma? I don't see the difference. Further, the only videoed LEO ADs I know of all involve these very popular with police guns.

[BobM]

Several years ago in SWAT magazine there was an article about Tacoma's selection process. You might be able to obtain it from them.

Personally, I'd like to be able to carry the pistol of my choice, and I'd choose a 1911 if allowed. However, I think ScottT makes a very good point. I'm an instructor on a 26 officer department and I don't think there' s 5 officers that I think would be able to run one effectively.

[Ysabel Kid]

I have seen LEO's around the country carrying 1911's - always catches my eye and puts a smile on my face. You may want to check around, get a list of other departments who issue/allow them, and build your case on numbers.

Bottom line, as you stated in your original e-mail, someone in need of a carry gun - whether it be a LEO or a CCW'd civilian - should carry a high-quality handgun they are comfortable with and shoot well. A gunfight is no place for political correctness - which is often the reason the 1911 is frowned upon. If Spec Ops forces use them, and top competitors use them, it can hardly be called "antiquated".

[El Mac]

I would drop the idea, if I were you, unless you are going to propose that only the elite will be allowed to carry them. The 1911A1 is a real pistolero's handgun, and the average cop is not a pistolero. I carried one in the Navy, and the standard protocol is hammer down on an empty chamber. You will notice that all the military units cited in this thread are not average units but highly trained "operators". I wouldn't want to live in a community where the average cop carries a 1911A1. You can just about guarantee ADs and innocent corpses, because you know that they are not going to carry hammer down on an empty chamber.

That's hysteria at its finest.

[El Mac]

I carried a cocked and locked 1911 most of my law enforcement career.

But, I would not recommend it. It is an expert's gun and it is a fine gun for gunfighting. But police officers by and large are not properly trained to be gunfighters like some of the elite groups cited here.

I love cops, but most police officers are not competent with their handguns.

If you do it strictly on what the individual officer "feels comfortable with" you are going to get some who carry it as a status symbol and they will be your problem.

Wisdom that.

The work around is to have a seperate program that deals with the nuances of the 1911. Additional training and higher qual standards. The boys that want to play in the big league will be self challenged to raise their game to the level necessary to win. The sick, lame and lazy will of course avoid additional training and vigorous standards everytime. To succeed fully, you will want a well versed 'smith on the 1911 working in your court.

Wheat from the chaff.

Its been done within the FBI, LAPD and others just to name a couple. The real problem will be convince your administrators to spend the extra cake to authorize an advanced training program. Being that most administrators are nothing if not bean counters, you have an uphill battle to fight. However, nothing worthwhile comes easy. You will invest your own political creditials within your agency. And you will make enemies in your struggle, guaranteed.

Just gotta ask yourself, is it worth it? Do you feel lucky? Well do ya...?

[FALPhil]

That's hysteria at its finest.

You betcha. And considering the numb nuts they hire around here, it's warranted.

[El Mac]

That's hysteria at its finest.

You betcha. And considering the numb nuts they hire around here, it's warranted.

Might want to move if its that bad.

[Rexster]

I carried a cocked and locked 1911 most of my law enforcement career.

But, I would not recommend it. It is an expert's gun and it is a fine gun for gunfighting. But police officers by and large are not properly trained to be gunfighters like some of the elite groups cited here.

I love cops, but most police officers are not competent with their handguns.

If you do it strictly on what the individual officer "feels comfortable with" you are going to get some who carry it as a status symbol and they will be your problem.

I have used 1911 pistols for much of my 24-year LE career, too, which is still ongoing, and agree with ScottT. My first pistol, in 1983, was a 1911. I really love the 1911. I stopped using 1911s for primary duty use in 2002, for reasons too long to cover here, and while I can still use them for carry on my own time, and back-up at work, I tapered off my 1911 carry to about zero. To paraphrase Mas Ayoob, "The 1911 may be the best fighting pistol in the world, but it is not the best threat management tool, and in police work, the primary duty pistol is for threat management far more than for fighting." From 1990-1993, and 2004 to present, SIGs have been, and are, my duty pistols. There may be other autopistols as good as SIGs, but there are none better, for service use, in my opinion. Navy SEALs and the British SAS seem to agree, and they are fighters much more than threat managers. (My drift into SIGs was prompted because that is what is carried by the one who started this topic; I carry them by choice.)

[jkbrea]

Rexter, I too like the Sig and that is what we issue. Officers are also allowed to carry any other double action quality handgun between 9mm and .45. (no magnums). Some officers came from departments that carried 1911's and are far comfortable shooting them. Others want to switch over. It would be at their cost and they have to go through a transition training course. It's just another option I believe they should be allowed.
Anyways I sincerely want to thank all of you for your responses.

[Rexster]

jkbrea, just saw your low post count; Welcome to the forum! I see my earlier post may be seen as anti-1911; I did not intend it that way, but I cut my enormously long post down to size, and it ended up that way. I actually fully support the use of the 1911 on patrol by highly motivated guys who will seriously train with them. Mas Ayoob has written much good 1911 stuff, much of the source material gleaned from contacts with LE officers and agencies. If you have time to do some internet searching, or perhaps contact Mas yourself, he may be a source of help.

[Rexster]

In your general region, El Monte, CA made LE history by making the 1911 their issued duty pistol, probably largely influenced by Col. Jeff Cooper. While this was decades ago, you might want to see what they are doing now, or may have on file.

[Rexster]

Rexter, I too like the Sig and that is what we issue. Officers are also allowed to carry any other double action quality handgun between 9mm and .45. (no magnums).

For uniformed patrol (since 1997) we carry certain approved .40 DA autos, the list originally being SIG P229, Beretta Cougar, and a single-stack S&W decock-only model. The list has grown somewhat, with the Cougar dropping off the list. Weapons "grandfathered" as duty pistols may be carried to this day, if we maintain annual quals with no lapses, which is why I carried 1911s until 2002, and there are still 1911s, DA sixguns, and a variety of duty pistols still to be seen in our older officers' holsters, as the policy before 1997 was wide open, with almost anything from 9mm/.38 up to .45, auto or DA sixgun, being OK.

[FALPhil]

Might want to move if its that bad.

Wouldn't do that much good. I've known too many in too many jurisdictions.

[El Mac]

Might want to move if its that bad.

Wouldn't do that much good. I've known too many in too many jurisdictions.

I see where you are coming from now.

[505stevec]

The 1911 is a great shooting platform. Unfortunately many officers do not take the time to practice and become proficient with their duty weapon. In my department we issue either the Glock 22 or the Sig Pro in .40 s&w. Two great weapons. Passing score on our pistol course is 80%. Case law that I have read for officer involved shootings show that their is less implied liability if the officers shoots with a weapon that he/she is more apt to shoot well. i.e. my officers can buy and carry any weapon of their choice within specific calibers and reputable makes. The 1911 in most variations is acceptable. The proviso for this carry is that the must prove more proficiant with a higher score than they would the department weapon. I mandate 90% at the minimum. Now the reason for this is that there would be a clear indication that the officer is more proficient with the chosen weapon and thus mitigate any complaints for reasons stated earlier. Their are many argument both ways and to tell you the truth not all officers should carry anything other than what is issued or what has been ordered to purchase. Most officers in my state do not practice and take the time to become proficient and thus would be a hazard. They already are but at least they are not using a specialized pistol in the process.

[jkbrea]

Rexster, I know I have a low post count but I've actually been a member for over a year, (from the old site). I just read and learn mostly. I've even bought a few levers since joining,.... two of them from members .
Thanks for the welcome.