Field Sidearm - 6" Ruger GP100, 6" S&W 686, or my G20L

[CowboyTutt]

Ed, regarding ammo availability, I was sort of drawn to the 10mm just because it was not so popular anymore but also because the surprisingly good ballistics of full strength 10mm ammo did not support NOT using it currently, at least as a "camp gun". I also make it a point to travel with enough ammo for the occasion and I would be irresponsible if I didn't. Please don't be offended, but if your going to travel with a handgun being your source of personal defense, you would also travel with enough ammo to feed it.

Hope your staying warm up there in NorEast CA. Hoping we can meet up this summer.

Sincerely,

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

Well Andy, I have to say yours is the only 10mm I have shot but shooting at 200 yd targets was surprisingly viable with yours. Well, until the range officer put a halt to that.

[CowboyTutt]

Old Savage, as you darn well know, Jim Williamson or any number of the Shootists can do very well with pistolas at long range. I'm just trying to learn the skill, and the 10mm does it as well as any cartridge out there.

I had Jim W. give me a refresher course on pistol shooting and will practice dry fireing in front of a mirror as soon as I get home to get better.

Meanwhile, I'm still sort of partial to the 460 at long range, yuck yuck!!!

-Tutt

[Camp Cook]

Holy cow Mr Tutt those handguns are very nice...

I am a 10mm fan as well and have carried handguns in the bush for wild animal defense for 7 years now and I'm in Canada where this is generally against the law.

The handgun I started with was a 6" Barsto barreled Colt Delta Elite in 10mm but due to always having to worry about rust I purchased a Glock 20 and later installed a 5" KKM 10mm barrel and can swap over to a 4.6" KKM 40S&W barrel when I want cheaper practice rounds.

The 10mm loads I used for this were 190gr Sierra FPJ @ 1280fps and Beartooth 200gr WFNGC's @ 1240fps from the 5" G20 barrel.

I had quite a few black bear encounters didn't have to shoot any of them but I started feeling that the 10mm just wasn't enough bullet so I started carrying my s/s 5.5" Ruger Bisley Vaquero's in 45 Colt loaded up with top velocity 240gr XTP's - 345gr Beartooth WLNGC's.

Well when you spend a lot of time alone in the bush with only a handgun and you start working more and more in grizzly country and you start having grizzly encounters you start to think about a more powerful handgun/cartridge combo.

I now carry a 4.25" Ruger Super Redhawk in 454 Casull loaded with 240gr XTP-Mag's @ 1650fps - 405gr Beartooth WLNGC's @ 1330fps if I'm in only black bear country I load up with top 45 Colt loads and/or a 4.25" Storm Lake barreled Glock 29 10mm in the winter months or if I'm jumping in and out of the truck a lot.

I have never carried a 357mag in the bush and have absolutely no interest in carrying a 357mag they have their place but bear defense is not one of those places, what wasn't taken into consideration is the frontal meplat of the 10mm puts it into a league of it's own when comparing bullet weight/velocity/knock down power not saying the 10mm has knock down power just saying it has better knock down power even when everything else is equal.

Here is a pic of the SRH's (I sold the 7.5" one though) the Bisley's and the rifle is a Puma M92 in 454 Casull that I also shoot 45 Colts in.



Here is a pic of my 4.25" barreled G29 10mm with a full size G20 mag and Scherer mag sleeve.

[JB]

Our 200 yd plate is about 15" and I can hit it 80% of the time but remember, I'm shooting two handed, unsupported with open sights, and I'm 62 with older eyes and older nerves. I've had some of the younger fellas shoot it too and a couple of our good shooters can hit a 6" steel plate at 100yds every time offhand. That's better than I can do, but I can hit the 12" plate at 100yds offhanded every time. However, my forte is shooting at random ranges, random targets rather than round after round into the same target.

At what range do you have that 10mm sighted in for? Using Hornady's calculator, they show a 180 grain 10mm zeroed at 100 yards, still being over 33" low at 200 yards! If you're zeored for 50 yards or less, that's some drop. You must be holding pretty darn high. Not to even mention any potential wind issues.

[Old Ironsights]

I've read probably 85% of the posts on this thread and haven't read this so I'll say it.

Seems to me the 10mm was really popular for sometime and was on the way up as to top pick in calibers; however, it seems that the .40 S&W came along an let the air out of the 10mm sails...

Ya mean the 10mm Short & Wimpy?

FWIU the .40 was developed because the FBI's "gentler" members couldn't handle a .357 Class Autogun.

[Camp Cook]

At what range do you have that 10mm sighted in for? Using Hornady's calculator, they show a 180 grain 10mm zeroed at 100 yards, still being over 33" low at 200 yards! If you're zeored for 50 yards or less, that's some drop. You must be holding pretty darn high. Not to even mention any potential wind issues.

and this is being posted on a site that specializes in lever guns???

Don't we all understand tragectory and windage here...

[piller]

I don't have a 10mm. I have wanted one for a while, but other things have been more important. The 10mm can be loaded down to 40 S&W levels, but the 40 S&W can't be loaded up to the level that a 10mm can. The case length is the reason. Kind of like with the .38 and the .357. I just don't like the feel of a Glock. I am not trying to start an argument about it, but they don't feel good in my hand. If I am not comfortable holding a gun, then I probably won't be able to shoot it well and will leave it in the safe to sit unused. Given the three guns Steve starts with, I'd take either of the wheelguns. I have shot a GP100 and a 686, and love them both. My main point is, if it doesn't fit your hand, it probably isn't the best choice for you to carry.

[nemhed]

As a .357 fan and a reloader I think an 8 shot S&W 327 M&P would just about be the perfect revolver for the type of field carry being discussed. Of course, I think I have less money wrapped up in my 357 Blackhawk and my Glock 22 combined. I just don't bother reloading the 40 cal since that Glock likes to sling brass all over the county. Also, as some have brought up before (O.I.), a revolver leaves less evidence "at the scene", so to speak.

[O.S.O.K.]

If you are concerned about penetration of the 10mm in bear country, I would simply load round nose, flat point hard cast boolits of 180 or 200 grain weights to maximum velocity - assuming you have a barrel that's safe/recommended for them.

I haven't tested them, but I am sure they penetrate deeply.

And if you have 15 or 16 of these at your disposal without having to reload, I would think that a brain-case shot could be acheived even in an adrenilin rush state.

I love my revolvers but I would pack the Glock 20SF loaded thusly in bear country.

[Hobie]

I see the choice between GP100 and 686 as a wash. The 10mm is interesting. I don't like Glocks though, I'd have a Colt Delta Elite.

.357s: I don't think a 6" is necessary. A way back in 1970-something when I wrote about my search for a single handgun for all uses I settled on a 4" stainless Ruger Security Six. I liked it so much that I have replaced the original gun with as near a duplicate as I could find (the first being sacrificed to the big D). I hunted deer squirrels & fox, protected my family, etc. with that gun.

10mms: I have a 14" Contender barrel I put a Choate extension on so that I could use the gun as a carbine. It seems to me that the cartridge is pretty much nothing more (or less) than a rimless .38-40. I haven't seen much, if any, difference in velocity of the 14" compared to the 5" and I haven't been able to get the velocities some have claimed for the round. My favorite bullet is the 180 gr. XTP.

Those are my thoughts but it really comes down to whatever floats your boat.

[Camp Cook]

I have an 18.5" T/C Contender carbine barrel in 10mm and find that I was getting very good velocity increases over my 4.6" stock Glock 20/6" Colt Delta Elite/18.5" Contender.

You can find the below info here htt p://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=918942 in the attached files in post #2 and yes it is my data in the file, there is a space between the t & p...

Manufacturer Bullet Brand/type Bullet Weight Ballistic coeffiecient Powder type (if known) Powder Charge (if known) Barrel Type (gun) Barrel Length (if known) Velocity (muzzle) Low Velocity (muzzle) High Velocity (muzzle) AVG muzzle energy 100 yd Velocity 100 yd energy


reload cast 175 Tite Group 5.5 Glock Stock 4.6 1080
reload cast 175 Tite Group 5.5 Delta Elite 6 1160
reload cast 175 Tite Group 5.5 T/C 18.5 1265

reload Sierra FPJ 190 0.195 IMR 800X 10.4 Glock Stock 4.6 1250 659 1065 479
reload Sierra FPJ 190 0.195 IMR 800X Delta Elite 6 1375 798 1141 549
reload Sierra FPJ 190 0.195 IMR 800X T/C 18.5 1490 937 1218 626

reload Sierra FPJ 190 0.195 AA #9 Glock Stock 4.6 1180 587 1026 444
reload Sierra FPJ 190 0.195 AA #9 Delta Elite 6 1268 678 1076 488
reload Sierra FPJ 190 0.195 AA #9 T/C 18.5 1430 863 1177 584

reload XTP 200 0.199 IMR 800X 9.6 Glock Stock 4.6 1175 613 1025 467
reload XTP 200 0.199 IMR 800X 9.6 Delta Elite 6 1300 751 1098 535
reload XTP 200 0.199 IMR 800X 9.6 T/C 18.5 1405 877 1164 602

reload Nosler HP 135 0.093 IMR 800X 13.5 Glock Stock 4.6 1615 782 1082 351
reload Nosler HP 135 0.093 IMR 800X Delta Elite 6 1800 971 1171 411
reload Nosler HP 135 0.093 IMR 800X T/C 18.5 2025 1229 1305 511

[O.S.O.K.]

Hobie - I haven't gotten the velocities either which is why I was asking Ed for his recipe for the 180/1400+ load. He's chrono'd it and so knows what its doing.

But no recipe.... Ed?

I just loaded some 10mm this afternoon. I used 180 grain boolits from my RCBS mould (rnfp) cast from ww with a little tin and lubed with lee liq alox. I used 8.7grains of Power Pistol which is shown having a rate of 1235fps in the Alliant book.

I am really more interested in an accurate load going at a decent clip that shoots close to the sights...

[VGmontana]

Enjoyed this thread a lot. Thanks for all the data and input.

Please add in the data for a 4" .44mag Taurus @ 34 oz. w/ 240gr. JFN bullets. And a Ruger Redhawk 4" w/ 300 gr. castcore.

Three points on the barrel length for bear country:

1) As previously stated, when it goes bad, it goes bad fast - and close enough to smell bad breath - or worse, blood. The ability to maneuver the weapon to target is paramount. The shorter the better.

2) When in the field climbing deadfall, riding a horse etc. The shorter the barrel the better. It's just more comfortable - even in the truck.

3) Where to wear it? Under the arm, under a jacket? On your chest? Cross draw? Once again, if you need it- you need it now. It should be on your hip or leg. Preferrably on your leg so a jacket does not get in the way. Once again, the shorter the better.

Auto vs Revolver: get in a wrestling match in the snow and mud while trying to fire your weapon multiple times. Which has the higher chance of jamming? Which one can be used as a hammer or club in a pinch better? Plastic auto or SS wheelgun?

Anyway, just some comments. They are all good.. Give Thanks this season that Obama is a 1 term President. Pray that the Chinese don't take us while he weakens us.

Better the gun you have than the one you left at home.

[Ravenman]

[quote="Pathfinder09"]I'll take the 10mm anytime! One of my favorite calibers. I wish they made more platforms for it. I always thought the HK USP would be a great platform for the 10mm. I don't have one right now but I'm always on the hunt. I had a Glock 20 but it was like holding a brick. The Colt Delta Elite was the best. IMHO!

Pathfinder - my thinking too - 10mm the silent king My first 10mm choice Bren Ten and than all the S&W as 1006, 1066, 1076 and last but not least the old classic Delta Elite.

[COSteve]

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[ceb]

COSteve makes a good case for his choice, and I can't argue with it, but it won't work for me. The large frame Glocks just don't fit, I like thin grips and short triggers even on my 1911s to get the right grip. Besides, I don't have bears in southern Illinois and I can't deer hunt with a auto handgun. Don't make sense to me either, but a lot of things in Illinois don't make sense. I'll go with the .357, and like Hobie, I'm a real fan of the older Ruger Security-Six.

[Paul105]

I have one of the first 10mm Glock 20s. It has had a grip reduction by Dane Burns out of Washington state ( http://www.burnscustom.com/ ), otherwise its straight stock. Recently added a second G20 -- this one is equipped with a light/laser combo for low/no light night application.

There are various aftermarket barrel makers that allow you to convert the G20 to 40 S&W (if you want to go this route). I have the Lone Wolf versions (just in case).

For those worried about running out of 10mm ammo while on the road (or other circumstances), the Glock 20s will fire 40 S&W in a pinch (don't know about other platforms) -- at least the two that I have will. The extractor maintains necessary headspace for reliable primer hits and they feed just fine thru the 10mm magazines.

I'm retired and live in Montana. I'm out hunting, fishing, woods bumming, walking the dogs, etc. pretty much every day of the year. My all day everyday carry gun is a S&W 329 PD -- I prefer the revolver for reasons stated by Bigsky56. Also, the 329 provides the best power to weight ratio for my purposes. With the ever expanding (and increasingly aggressive) Wolf population, I might have to rethink this and opt for greater firepower of the G20.

Steve, Great thread.

Paul

[Old Ironsights]

Ever since I read "Hammer's Slammers" a decade or so ago I've liked the idea of 1cm guns... but the cost and availability of ammo has always irritated me.

1cm is a ballistically superior/nearly ideal round for a whole host of reasons... but I've just never been able to warm up to it like .357...

[COSteve]

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[Terry Murbach]

THIS IS ONE OF THE GREAT POSTS EVER ON THIS SITE, GUYS !!! STEVE NAILED IT TO THE BARNDOOR WITH DEAD-ON-THE-SIGHTS-PRECISION. THERE IS NO ARGUMENT WITH WHAT HE SAID, IT IS PERFECTLY STATED, PERFECTLY EXPLAINED, AND DEAD-ON RIGHT !!!
MY G20 IS A VERY EARLY ONE THAT HAS BEEN ROBERIZED AND NOW FEELS LIKE AN EVER-SO-SLIGHTLY THICK 1911. THE LATE CHUCK KARWAN DID THE TRIGGER ON MINE AND NO ONE WHO SHOOTS IT CAN BELIEVE IT IS A GLOCK. THE SIGHTS ARE ORIGINAL STEEL ADJUSTABLE WITH NIGHT SITES AND WERE DEAD ON THE MONEY FROM THE FACTORY. THE PISTOL WILL PICK THE BUTTONS OFF YOUR SHIRT AT 50 METERS AND IF YOU THINK I AM KIDDING WALK OUT THERE 50 LONG STEPS. THIS 10MM PISTOL HAS NEVER EVER MALFED A ROUND AND ALSO GOBBLES UP 40'S LIKE POPCORN, DUMPING THE 40 BRASS OUT 6' OR SO IN TINY LITTLE PILES. IT WILL SHOOT ANY 10MM LOADS INTO TINY LITTLE GROUPS AND SHOOTS THE HELL OUTTA CAST BULLETS TO BOOT [ YES, I HAVE HEARD ALL THAT DO-NOT-SHOOT-CAST-BULLETS stuff...] WITH VELOCITIES UP TO 1500fps OR SO WITH LEAD SWC 175gr BULLETS. YES, I DO HAVE A BAR-STO 40 BBL AND A 357SIG BBL FOR THIS G20 AND FOR THE LIFE OF ME I CANNOT FIND EITHER ONE IN THE STASH..[AND THE GLOCK 6" BBL FOR THIS PISTOL ISN'T WITH A PINCH OF REFINED OWLSHIQ IN CASE YOU'RE WONDERING...MINE IS 25fps FASTER THAN THE STANDARD FACTORY G20 BARREL. ]
ON THE OTHER HAND THE G20 AIN'T NO SINGLE ACTION 45 AND FOR CARRYING UP IN TO THE HIGH LONESOME THE SAA 45 IS MY PERSONAL CHOICE. I USE TO DRIVE CHUCK NUTS ARGUEING OVER THIS AND HE AUTOGRAPHED A BOOK TO ME AS BEING THE ONLY ONE HE KNEW NUTS ENOUGH TO KNOWINGLY TAKE A SAA 45 UP AGAINST A G20 IN A GUNFIGHT, AND IN ALL PROBABILITY WINNING !!!
CO/STEVE, THIS IS/WAS A GREAT POST FROM YOU AND I ENJOYED THE DICKENS OUT OF IT !!!

[Old Ironsights]

I have to admit that I handload for all my calibers including my 10mm and 357mag so I don't have any issue with ammo availability. Also, I can't conceive of ever shooting commercial ammo because of both the cost and quality advantage of handloading.

I don't have a single caliber that I can't reload for 1/3 the cost of commercial and many are 1/4 or 1/5 the cost so I admit I'm biased towards handloading. In addition, I've found that I really enjoy customizing my loads for each weapon and purpose. I've often wondered if I 'handload to shoot' or 'shoot to handload'.

I just hate chasing brass... almost more than anything else. My .357's don't force me to do that.

Also, looking at the 1cm data vs .357 data, I still don't see where it can get to .357 Buffalo Bore Whompum level.

Not that I'm complaining... If I had the $$$ to get into an auto caliber beyong my 9mm duty piece I would be all about the 10, but it just "fills" a niche that is already covered by other, easier to deal with calibers right now.

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Cliff]

This is a great posting with a lot of interesting comments. I like good double actions and I also like auto loaders. Single actions have their place as well. But after reading the data Steve has given and my experience (with Glocks) I have to say he has something going there. When the Glocks hit our shores I got an early G-17 and loved it, tried every configuration of bullet even empty cases, always would feed. My Glock 17 with 18 rounds weighed the same as my duty revolver (S&W M-15 4") did empty. Terry's comments are right on as well. Since then I have gotten one of the new Glock 21 in the new frame and really like it. Anyway did a little searching and find the G-21 has been made over into a 45 Super if you like that. 185 grain bullet at 1350FPS IIRC. As for a gun feeling good in my hands and so on I have fired handguns from many different parts of the world, some are terrible feeling and some great. Sometimes you don't have the choice of using the handgun you like or would like rather you learn to make do. Some shooters are like women looking at hangbags or shoes, no pleasing them. Everyone has their dislikes and likes. I think Steve has really opened some eyes here and maybe I might find an excuse to go to a 1CM bore which I have avoided as I have so many different calibers now. WAY TO GO STEVE LOVED THE WRITE UP. All the best to you.

[Camp Cook]

We are now being advised to not shoot 45 Super in the Glocks they will not stand up to the round...
The BC Conservatives I have had meetings with are nut jobs that I would never have anything to do with and all other parties are left leaning nut jobs that

[Old Ironsights]

BB's load data for the 10mm and 357mag can't be directly compared because they don't offer corresponding bullet weights: i.e. no 165grn 10mm vs their 158grn 357mag. Their lightest 10mm is 180grn.
..

Oops, my bad. I went back and looked and the new BB 10mm 180s are pushing 1350 while the .357 180s are pushing 1400. Same Same there.

Now the interesting question is: Will a Sub2000 or other 10mm carbine show the same performance boost that the .357 does?

1400 to 1800 is a heckofa boost, but that's what I get with the .357 180s out of a 20" tube...

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Camp Cook]

Go to this link http://glocktalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=918942 second post has 2 PDF files my 18" T/C Contender carbine 10mm loads/velocities are listed there as well as the same loads being shot in my Colt Delta Elite 6" Barsto barrel & factory G20 4.6" barrels.as well as

[COSteve]

Deleted

[olyinaz]

I've never considered a 10MM due to recoil (don't like my 4" .357 Python with full house loads much so I figured I wouldn't like 10mm either) but you've got me thinking now Steve.

Thanks,
Oly

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Old Ironsights]

...
Save for the old Broomhandle Mausers and you can see by the picture that their grip is a small diameter and also somewhat conical shaped, making it hard for many to grasp securely.

Except for Han Solo anyway...

[Camp Cook]

I had to laugh at that...

There is a Hans Solo/Star Wars weekend on the TV right now...

[Old Ironsights]

I had to laugh at that...

There is a Hans Solo/Star Wars weekend on the TV right now...

Ancient weapons and hokey religions are no substitute for a good blaster at your side kid...

[CowboyTutt]

Hi Steve. I think when you are refering to "revolver grip frames" you mean SA grip frames. Double action grip frames can have a shape similar to or better than your Glock grip frame.



Also, to be fair, there are some SA grip makers who offer a grip that offers better control then the typical "conical grip" and that offers a higher level of control of a SA revolver. I have grips from both Bob Munden and Carey at CLC grips that have a shoulder that helps reduce "grip jump" in the hand of a SA revolver. This is Carey's version:



Even the factory grips of the Taurus Raging Bull double action revolver are pretty darn good for recoil control:



I just wanted to point out that revolvers still have a lot to offer in recoil control, reliability and most of all sheer firepower.

-Tutt

[Camp Cook]

WOW Mr Tutt... that 45 Colt is beautiful... I had forgotten that you had it...

I've been looking for one of those for a long time now it would go awesome with my two con ser #'ed 5.5" 45 Colt s/s Bisley Vaquero's...

[Pathfinder09]

My field guns:

S&W Mod 25 Mountain Gun is .45 colt.


S&W 29 Hunter (.44mag): S&W 629 .44mag; S&*W Mod 19 .357 mag