Lost and Unrecovered animals - Please reply

[86er]

I am gathering some information to make comparisons and conclusions in conjunction with my 1000 Tags Filled data booklet. If you have ever shot a big game animal with a cartridge or muzzleloader tool and either never found it or found it at such a later time that it was completely ruined please respond with: animal - cartridge - any component or ballistic info.
It's okay to say your neighbor or cousin was the shooter as long as you have honest first hand knowledge

Anyone who purchased the data booklet will find this useful to verify and reconcile trends in the data also.

I'll start:

Whitetail deer - 30/30 Win - 160 gr Hornday LeverEvolution
Whitetail deer - 30/30 Win - 160 gr Hornady LeverEvolution
Feral Hog - 30/30 Win - 170 gr Speer Hot Core (2170 fps).

Thanks!

[Pisgah]

I rather doubt the usefulness of such data, as I have seen deer unrecovered after being shot with almost every cartridge you could name and am convinced such a result comes far more often from poor shot placement and poor tracking, or unwillingness to put forth the effort, than the cartridge used; however, speaking personally, out of over 200 deer shot in 44 years I have lost exactly one, shot with a Remington .308 Win. 150 gr. load. It was an iffy shot to begin with that, in retrospect, I probably should not have taken, and I searched for two full, fruitless days, following a blood trail that went over 1000 yards.

[RIHMFIRE]

me...none with a firearm...one with bow...looked for him for 6 hours...
One of the guys in my old hunt club lost numerous deer using 308
balistic tips at short range...I suspect shot placement, and the use of that ammo
both contributed to the deer running off deep into the swamps!

[shooter]

I've lost exactly 2 animals that I have hit. Both were pigs. One was a 200+ yard shot with a .300 Win Mag using 165 gr. Remington bullets going around 3100 fps I believe. The shot was behind the front shoulder and a little high. That pig was killed by someone else a couple weeks later and had a nasty festering wound where I had shot it before.

The second pig was shot with a .243 using factory Wal-Mart Winchester ammo using 100 gr. bullets. It was about a 70 yd. shot while the pig was laying down. I followed the blood trail for a while, then the trail just stopped cold. I looked for a couple of hours but never found the animal.

[Charles]

Count me among those that don't see much purpose in collecting the data. Over the years I have shot deer size game with a dozen or more rounds from 25-20 to 45-70 and have never lost and animal. The trick, if there is one, patience, willingness to pass up a shot and then place the shot where it sould be.

Your data would say far more about hunters than the rifles and loads they use.

[CEMENTHEAD]

Only one, however it still bothers me................

.50 caliber muzzle loader, 2- 50gr Pyrodex pellets (100gr total), 245 grain Powerbelt, 30 yards, left front quartering to shot on the point of the shoulder. Small, 3 point buck, did a back somersault, got up running hard on 3 legs. Trailed blood for over 250 yards. Had to back out due to darkness. Did grid searches for the next 3 days with 2 excellent trackers, covering approx. 600 square acres. Never found that buck, or got wind of anyone else getting it. I punched that tag and didn't hunt the rest of the muzzle loader season. I quit using those bullets after hearing more horror stories. Found out from others experimentation that they work fine if the speed is kept below 1400fps+/-.

Thanks, Tom

[GoatGuy]

Southeastern New Mexico Pronghorn - .270 Win. handload - Velocity +/- 3,100 fps. - 130 grain Sierra, flat base spitzer soft point - Range was 30-35 yards.

Lost and recovered 15 hrs. later. NM August antelope season. Daytime temps in the mid to upper 80's. Nighttime temps upper 60's. Shot was from a 23" barreled, left-hand action Sako. Shot was raking from behind the shoulder, left to right, and taken as the speedgoat began to run when it noted me rising to take the shot. Hit was about 3" too far back and the stinking Sierra came apart soon after entry. No exit. Possibly never would have found him if one tiny bullet fragment hadn't hit an aortic artery. Ranch manager watched the stalk, saw the shot, the goat hit the afterburner and fall after a run of no more than 60-80 yards. Five of us searched the area for 2 1/2 hours, until too dark. No blood trail. Found him the next a.m. about 15 yards outside the edge of the 2+ acre Cholla cactus patch from which the shot was taken. Nice set of horns. Ranch manager "determined" the meat would be spoiled, so left all but the horns for the ranch owner's dogs.

Resultant impetuous decision - Sold the Sako, possibly the most accurate rifle I've ever owned. Swore off of and have never owned another .270. STUPID REACTION! A very rapidly expending bullet with high velocity for the range - double trouble. Should have kept the rifle and switched to Nosler partitions. Have never used another Sierra bullet for anything other than accuracy testing and varmint cartridges. Have used partitions in most "fast shooters" since that incident.

Is it obvious I haven't gotten over this incident from almost 2 decades past? Only big game animal I've ever lost!

[Scott Young]

8 point whitetail deer - 45-70 300gr JHP Remington
8 point whitetail deer - 45-70 300gr JHP Remington

7 point whitetail deer - 45-70 325gr Leverlution Hornady
Near Loss 8 point deer - 45-70 325gr Leverlution Hornady



I am the proud owner of a 45-70 now. After the former owner lost faith in the rifle, I bought it from him after trying to track the first two deer. We found a lot of blood, but no deer both times. This man has more trophy deer on his wall than many see in a life time. I am at a loss as to why this combination has failed him. I haven't had any problems with the rifle. All deer were said to be shot in the shoulder. I know the near loss was shot in the shoulder then turned and ran and then shot in the flank, and the got up and started again and then shot quartering away in the lungs. Each time the deer went down and the man reloaded. The deer got up and he shot it again. I don't know the distance so I can't say.



Interesting enough from my dad and my experiences the one gun that has always been a "one shot drop right there" gun is my .243 shooting a 100 grain remington corelock. We can't say why, but it has always been that way. The only other gun I can say has always dropped them in their tracks is my .338 win shooting a 200 grain speer hotcore. On these two bullets some 12 deer have been take by me, dad, and family all accounts have been they were hit and knees buckled and they fell where they stood. Only two deer didn't exactly fall where they stood they were trotting and were hit. one by the 243 and the other by the 338 and both times they were hit and then crumbled. My dad's favorite bullet was the .243. He swore by it.

[86er]

Great - keep 'em coming guys. This is not necessarily conclude anything direct about the ammo/cartridge/bullet. There are indirect comparisons and conclusions that can be made. For instance: if a lot of animals are lost when shot with a 999 Super Magnum it may be that he users are not comfortable shooting them or that the users do not execute as precise a shot placement as those using other calibers. There's a lot of comparisons and computations to make educated decisions when you use all the data together. This is about looking for trends, peaks, and patterns, not bashing a cartridge.

[Streetstar]

.243 -- Whitetail --- 100 grain Remington CoreLokt

[GoatGuy]

Count me among those that don't see much purpose in collecting the data. Over the years I have shot deer size game with a dozen or more rounds from 25-20 to 45-70 and have never lost and animal. The trick, if there is one, patience, willingness to pass up a shot and then place the shot where it sould be.

Your data would say far more about hunters than the rifles and loads they use.

Charles, your post really contains a certain elitist tone. Certainly not unusual for you, but can you really be so confident of your comments if you have not been at the scene of every incident reported in this string.

[Bruce]

I have had problems with the ML Powerbelts and have witnessed others have the same. No expansion. I have had problems with Winchester ammo, in 30-30 and 300 WinMag. Same problem - no expansion. Most shots were very close. Only one shot was at 100 yards and that was with the Ranger? (I believe) line. I don't think it is available anymore.

[Blaine]

Very Large, a-typical Whitetail in southeast Indiana. .54RB, 110gr PyroDex P....60 - 70 yds. Seemed like a good hit. I let him bleed out where he lay for the length of a smoke, and when I started down to him, he got up and walked away. And, yes, I had not reloaded since I was over confident that he was dead. The place he had been was a blood bath, and the blood trail stopped within 100', but I could not find him.

[Bigahh]

I have only been a part of 1 animal not really recovered. It was this year. A good friend hit a Big 10 pointer, and he looked all day! I found the animal 1/2 mile away the next day 3/4 eaten by Coyotes. The Deer was hit Right in the shoulder from a 270, and never exited. In my mind the bullet was tumbling when it entered the shoulder. I never was, and will never be a fan of the 270. Too fast for my neck of the woods. The cartridge has its place, and the heavy Timber of Wisconsin isn't the place! No one will ever change my mind on this issue.

10 Pt. Whitetail Buck- 130 grain Win PP-60 yards. Here he is 30 hours later. Would have still been good if not for coyotes. The snow came 12 hours after the shot or I would have found him right away, its not that I didn't try.

[Old Savage]

The two I saw were poor hits. Calibers were 350 Rem mag and 270. One was poor shot selection and the other ultimately resulted from pride where the shooter would not let another hunter with him take an almost sure shot while shooter himself was breathing very hard and the opportune moment passed. Poor shooting and poor shot selection seem to be the culprits. I can see where a professional like Joe would want to hear other experiences and that that would be helpful and certainly for other hunters to read these experiences.

[dkmlever]

Just one.
308 BLR (so it is On topic!)
Don't remember the load/bullet, I hit a mule deer buck at about 90 yards and it literally rolled forward and rested on his head in a bush but with all his feet still on the ground. Like it was expiring. I saw no reason to shoot it again, and the vitals were now kind of covered with the bush, I certaintly did not want to shoot it in the guts or back hams and I was 100% certain it was dead. I unloaded, turned and put my gun down and walked toward the buck. I was 20 yards from it and he picked up his head and ran, no blood, no trail. I went after my rifle, and followed him. I jumped him again about two minuets later, he was laying down but no shot was possible and he headed out of the private land into a state park area where I was not allowed hunt. I laid the rifle down and walked a mile or so into the park, all sage and scruby fields and never saw blood or him again.

[buckeyeshooter]

I shot a doe with a 54 caliber muzzleloader at 35 yards. It was loaded with 2 pyrodex pellets(120 grains) and a barnes saboted bullet (.500 diameter) of 275 grains. the shot was a bit high in the lungs. There was a touch of blood and hair at the impact point, no blood trail ---- but I could hear it running and banging brush for 25 seconds after the shot. I could see it ran downhill and right, but not much more due to the smoke. I believe it died within 150 yards of where I shot it, but I never found it and I looked 6 hours. It was unbelieveably thick cover with down treetops and brushpiles.

[BigSky56]

This topic is probably all about hunter failures and not the rifle/cartridge failures.

2 years ago I took my nephew on his first elk hunt as a shooter we rode up on a ridge top and met 2 raghorn bulls at 25 yds coming up to their day beds nephew slid down while I held the horses and took his shot with a 30/06 BAR 180 gr win roundnose which hit at 50 yds and 2 more shots that missed as the bull went down thru dogshair lodgepole the bull stopped at 300 yds and I had only a chance of a quick head shot thru the timber but missed and the bull was gone (peep sights). The lad tracked afoot while I followed with the horses and I built a fire and waited ,you dont leave horses unattended cause of wolves & bears , while he followed tracks thru the black timber he followed the wrong bull by the time he got back to the other set of tracks it started snowing and the tracks were lost spent the rest of the day looking and next 6 days finally found the bull watching for ravens collected the ivory's and the horns and told my nephew to fill out his tag he had his bull.

The moral of the story is when shooting elk up close a scope on 9X is as worthless as a cup of cold pee, earlier the lad had been viewing mulie bucks on a ridge and had set the scope on 9X for that instead of using binocs and didnt turn it back down to 3X for hunting, when we jumped the bulls he thought he was shooting behind the shoulder when in fact he hit the bull in the hip cause all he saw was hair. I didnt have to say anything to him he was pretty upset with himself cause he messed up and the elk suffered for it. danny

[Kansas Ed]

Never lost one myself..though there was one that I about gave up on after hours of tracking. But we found her where she'd circled back on us several hours later, and was piled up dead. Thankfully the weather was cold so no lost meat.

I witnessed my brother though, shoot a button buck with a Rossi '92 in 44 mag. Range 60ish yards. Factory 240gr HP (not sure of the brand). Deer hit the ground faster than immediately and lay stone still. As we walked up to the "dead" animal, at about 10 yards it bounced up like Tigger and bounded off into the scrub brush and briars. Both of us standing there with empty rounds chambered in our guns. Searched hours for that one and never found even a single blood spot. Still baffles me........the only conclusion I can come to, is that the shot grazed the top of the spine...not enough to bleed much, but enough to put his lights out momentarily.

Ed

[KCSO]

Shot a whitetail through the lungs with a .50 muzzleloader one year and my flashlight conked out on me while tracking. By the time I found it the next morning the coyotes had got the meat. I have tracked wounded deer up to 4 miles but I have pretty much always found them. I was called in to track a buck 2 years ago and we fiollowed the wounded buck for 3 miles before it hooled up in a small cedar thicket. We recovered it the next morning but the meat was ruined so I consider that a failure. Here in the heartland if your deer crosses onto someone elses property you need permission to retreive it, I have had 3 deer that permission was refused even though I could see the dead deer in the fellows pasture, dead. So I am pretty much a stickler for putting the shots where they count and dropping them DRT.

[Marlin32]

Whitetail deer / 307 Winchester / 180grain winchester soft point
25 yard shot, behind the shoulder, no blood, no hair, no nothing. Frost all over the ground.

Only deer I have ever lost, and shouldn't have, just a string of coincidences lead us in wrong direction.

[2ndovc]

Hasn't happened (except for one wood chuck).
i count myself fortunate.
I did spend two hours looking for an 8 pt white tail in MI.
I walked w/in ten yards of him twice. He was face down in the river not 20 yds from where I shot him.
Had in my mind he went the other way!!


jb

[Thunder50]

I like the powerbelts, or as mine are called, black belt bullets , I have had them for so long. Info I have found is that about 90gr powder is the max charge as they will expand too fast otherwise. I shot a bull elk a couple of years ago with them loaded in front of 125gr of swiss 1.5f. Hit behind shouder, at about 90yds and just liqified the lungs. Found what was left under the offside hide and pieces had a weight of about 222 gr. largest piece was 160gr or so.

Friend has lost a few deer with his 30-30 and w-w 170gr silvertips, but to be fair, grass/brush was so thick, if the deer ran very far, you would never find it, if you were looking by yourself.

[Griff]

Only one I know of was a friend's coastal blacktail. Shot at about 8000ft with a .270 140 grain Nosler Ballistic tip I don't know the load info, but could possibly get it. I didn't witness the shot, but did spend several hours trailing blood. Lost the trail over the side of a cliff in a shale slide.

[ollogger]

broke front leg low on p goat followed her till dark lost her she always had me insight & most of the time at long range ; i tryed every thing plus more ammo , nothing worked forme & i felt worse than when i got caught stealing bazooka joe gum at 5 yr old . rifle was 264 win 129 gr nos @ 3000 fps distance way to far ollogger

[FWiedner]

Feral Hog - .30-30 Win 170gr PP.

Close range, less than 20 yards. It was night and I believe that I shot low. I didn't account for the height of my scope aboove the bore. Found a blood trail that started in the vicinity of where the animal was shot. Diminished and then ended after about 75 yds. Not found.

[Lastmohecken]

I have been lucky, I have shot deer, (mainly) with all sorts of guns and archery equipment, and I have lost very few that I knew I hit.

One I remember was a nice little buck, hit with a crossbow, range 30yds, and the problem was I hit it high shoulder. The deer actually fell down, and I just knew I had it, but when I got down from my tree, the deer was gone, and I never found the arrow or the deer, and practically no blood. I know I must have stunned it, but hit in that area where the deer might have even survived, as I have bagged other deer with heeled up arrow wounds.

I have had some failure to opens with 180 Remington corelocks in the .308 win, but I did recover the deer, that's how I knew what happened for sure. I have seen this happen more then once, to the point that I won't use that load, anymore.

I have lost at least one deer to a 54 cal roundball, but I have not idea where I hit it at.

I lost a coyote to a .223, perfect lung shot, and a followup gut shot. I know I killed it, but I recond it went in a hole I found a little later, but can't prove it. I am not real impressed with the .223, even for coyotes, and other varmits, after a few kills. I think bullet choice is very critical, but I hear praises by others who love it.

[FWiedner]

I
I have had some failure to opens with 180 Remington corelocks in the .308 win, but I did recover the deer, that's how I knew what happened for sure. I have seen this happen more then once, to the point that I won't use that load, anymore.

What was your range on these shots?

I lost a coyote to a .223, perfect lung shot, and a followup gut shot. I know I killed it, but I recond it went in a hole I found a little later, but can't prove it. I am not real impressed with the .223, even for coyotes, and other varmits, after a few kills. I think bullet choice is very critical, but I hear praises by others who love it.

Interesting how different folks have different experinences. I've killed literally hundreds of coyotes with a .223. All I ever used was a 55gr FMJ. I just din't know no better... and I can't claim they were all DRT.

Not trying to hijack the topic or anything. I was just curious about these items. Sorry Joe.

[dr walker]

Whitetail deer- .30-06 180 gr Remington
Deer was found 7 days later almost .5 mile from shot.

[86er]

Great info. These few replies actually are on par with the 1000 Tags Filled data. There, the .30 diameter leads the way in unrecovered game. You can make speculative conclusions and then you can really study the info and break it down. For instance: Is .30 cal used so much more often that the statitics are skewed?, Is the .30 caliber bullet more/less effected by velocity than other diameters?, are more inexperienced hunters using .30 cal than others?, Most of the ammo mentioned is the one that the maker puts the least effort into - does that mean inconsistency?

This info can be treated like a random sample and can be considered a blind study since you haven't seen my data yet. When the sample and the baseline data are statistically similar, at some point there are coincidences that cannot be ignored.

Anyway, I've been making comparisons and charting some trends. It has been useful to me to find the answers to questions like those above - not necessarily the definitive answer but on that can guide my decision making process.

Keep 'em coming if you got 'em!

[Jayhawker]

I've lost exactly one way back in 1969, but he was a good buck. Shot at maybe 50 yards with Remington 308 Win 180gr ammo. The buck jumped a fence onto posted property owned by Arkansas Power & Light Co. and I couldn't follow. I've used a 444 Marlin for almost all my hunting since without complaint.

[JB]

It's pretty obvious why there's more game lost with 30 calibers. There's more of them being used. I found the following list of top ten selling rifle calibers in the U.S. I can't swear the list is right, but I'd say it's pretty darn close. 4 of the top 10 rounds are 30 calibers. It would only make sense there's more game killed, lost, etc. with the 30 calibers. If you're talking only large game, toss out the two 22's and the 30 calibers make up 1/2 the remaining eight calibers.

22-250 Remington (since 1937) in classic load: 40, 50, 55, 60 grain.

223. Remington (since 1964) in classic load: 55, 60, 69 grain.

243 Winchester (since 1955) in classic load: 100 grain.

270 Winchester (since 1925) in classic load: 130, 140, 150 grain.

30-30 Winchester (since 1895) in classic load: 150, 170 grain.

30-06 Springfield (since 1906) in classic load: 150, 165, 180, 200 grain.

308 Winchester (since 1952) in classic load: 165, 175, 180 grain.

300 Winchester Magnum (since 1963) in classic load: 165, 180, 190, 200 grain.

45-70 Government (since 1873) in classic load: 300, 405 grain.

7mm Remington Magnum (since 1962) in classic load: 150, 160, 175 gr

[Lastmohecken]

I
I have had some failure to opens with 180 Remington corelocks in the .308 win, but I did recover the deer, that's how I knew what happened for sure. I have seen this happen more then once, to the point that I won't use that load, anymore.

What was your range on these shots?

I lost a coyote to a .223, perfect lung shot, and a followup gut shot. I know I killed it, but I recond it went in a hole I found a little later, but can't prove it. I am not real impressed with the .223, even for coyotes, and other varmits, after a few kills. I think bullet choice is very critical, but I hear praises by others who love it.

Interesting how different folks have different experinences. I've killed literally hundreds of coyotes with a .223. All I ever used was a 55gr FMJ. I just din't know no better... and I can't claim they were all DRT.

Not trying to hijack the topic or anything. I was just curious about these items. Sorry Joe.

The range on the deer (in all fairness) was close to 200yds, and the barrel was short (Remington model 7), but I watched my cousin shoot a nice buck also at probably 200yds with the same factory load and we got the deer, but he hit it 2 or 3 times, and one bullet was recovered, that traveled nearly end to end through the deer, and never opened up. He was shooting a Browning BAR with I think a 22 inch barrel.

On the .223, I was shooting mostly 55gr softpoints. It was cheap ammo, I was using so maybe the bullets acted like FMJ's. I know people who hunt deer with the .223, and I have seen them taken with less, but I wouldn't try it, unless that was all I had, or took brain shots.

On the other hand, I have taken a lot of coyotes and deer with Winchester 180gr silvertips, I swear by them, in my 20 inch barreled BLR.

[rjohns94]

Only one, a deer, archery. heavy blood trail to where it laid down, I must have pushed it too soon, it got up, no blood, no prints I could follow. was raining. tried all the tricks. looked for three days. Never found the deer. The arrow passed through and I still have it intact. dried blood and all.

I shot low once on a doe with my .54 BP rifle, misjudged the distance in fading light. Hit the doe low. she got away. two seasons later, shot her, with a bow, and her hide is hanging on my wall to remind me of the error. I recognized her cause she carried a limp (but was fine other wise and had two sets of fawns). I hunted her specifically for the next two years, passing on all other deer.

[Streetstar]

. Here in the heartland if your deer crosses onto someone elses property you need permission to retreive it, I have had 3 deer that permission was refused even though I could see the dead deer in the fellows pasture, dead. So I am pretty much a stickler for putting the shots where they count and dropping them DRT.

Mmmmmmmmmmmm--- that is some real sour grapes there . Be really tempted to tell 'em to suck it. Or not to tell em at all.

[Old Savage]

30 caliber spans a larger range of cartridges than any other - 30-30 to 300 Mag. figure shooting, range estimation, bullet selection and a few other factors and you have in each a certain amount of opportunity for problem. The 270, 243 and 7mm only have fast spitzers for the most part and are in rifles usually with scopes and are fully capable to 250 -300 yds with a wider range of shooters than those using open sights at whatever range and conditions or guns with more recoil that they can shoot accurately. There are more built in problems that the shooter has to handle properly than with the other cartridges.

[Mokwaw]

I have lost 2. First was a whitetail doe, stalking through standing cornfield, front center chest shot at 15 yds. using .50 round ball muzzle loader with 90 gr. FF. She disappeared at the shot, found no blood and were so many tracks in field couldn't determine which were her's. Found her 3 days later, there was entry wound in chest where I had sighted, but no exit wound, she had bled out on the inside leaving no blood trail. Lesson learned when hunting standing corn, take head shot.

The second was actually my son's first deer. Stalking in hardwoods, he took a broadside shoulder shot with .45 maxi ball muzzle loader with 90 gr. FF. Said it knocked her off her feet and she rolled down hill, got up took off. The deer crossed in front of me at around 30 yds, I did not shoot because I could see the blood running clear down her leg. We waited for about 20 minutes then took up a blood trail that didn't even have to look for to see. We came to the edge of the timber and found pool of blood where she had either laid down, or fallen dead, but was no deer or any blood trail what so ever after making several widening circles. Saw 2 other fellows and asked if they had seen wounded doe, they said no that they were "just getting there", but I had the feeling that they had found her and taken her to their truck. I took my son and we left back they way we came, didn't think it a good idea call them on it, since couldn't prove anything.

[Charles]

Count me among those that don't see much purpose in collecting the data. Over the years I have shot deer size game with a dozen or more rounds from 25-20 to 45-70 and have never lost and animal. The trick, if there is one, patience, willingness to pass up a shot and then place the shot where it should be.

Your data would say far more about hunters than the rifles and loads they use.

Charles, your post really contains a certain elitist tone. Certainly not unusual for you, but can you really be so confident of your comments if you have not been at the scene of every incident reported in this string.

Yes goat, I can be that confident. If a hunter never pulls the trigger until he is 100% certain of where that bullet is going, the animal will be taken. I am sorry, if this seems elitist to you, but it was what I was taught as a young fellow just starting to hunt by older and wiser men who took me under their wing. Perhaps you live in a hope so, maybe so world, where you are not confident of yourself or your abilities. Having confidence in one's self is not elitist, it is learning from experience and not making the same mistake twice. I think it was Will Rogers that said..

"Some learn by reading, some learn by watching and the rest have to pee on the electric fence."

But at the end of the day, it would appear I am a burr under your saddle. I am certain there is a reason for your dislike of me, and that reason is known only to you. But, it is your problem and not mine. I am not going to allow it to become my problem. You will just have to deal with your own feelings. I don't know you and have no feelings about your one way or another. I certainly would not try and access your character from a few posts on a gun board.

[piller]

Because I had to have help finding it, and 86er actually put it down, my Scimitar can count as a Lost and Unrecovered animal. 1 shot with a 350 grain lead bullet from a .45-70 shot where the bullet went just below the diaphragm and the animal didn't bleed. I made a bad shot which might have not gone badly if the bullet were flat nosed or an expanding jacketed type.

[JohndeFresno]

I am gathering some information to make comparisons and conclusions in conjunction with my 1000 Tags Filled data booklet. If you have ever shot a big game animal with a cartridge or muzzleloader tool and either never found it or found it at such a later time that it was completely ruined please respond with: animal - cartridge - any component or ballistic info.
[snip]
Whitetail deer - 30/30 Win - 160 gr Hornday LeverEvolution
Whitetail deer - 30/30 Win - 160 gr Hornady LeverEvolution
Feral Hog - 30/30 Win - 170 gr Speer Hot Core (2170 fps).

Thanks!

Joe,

In looking over the data contained in your book, it seems to me that the range at which the game was shot is a critical factor in gauging its effectiveness, owing to the way it penetrates and/or expands with the remaining energy from whatever range the animal is hit.

I was surprised at a few calibers, overall, when I ran some numbers from your stats.

For instance, the .270 Winchester (which I have always considered one of the best wide range American game calibers, a la Jack O'Connor's writings) and the data for .25-06 really disappointed me.

The 35 Remington stats were limited for the game I am interested in, but it appears that it looks to be a better game getter for what we have around here, within its range, than the far more popular (in these parts) 30-30. However, the numbers don't show it because of a 100 yard traveler that skewed the 6 other entries for Hog, White Tail and Mule Deer.

The .308 underwhelmed me as a deer and hog round; at least with the choices made by the many shooters represented in these stats - compare its effectiveness with the 30-30 for one shot stops.

And the 7mm-08 looks like a terrific game round.

I realize that the following averages take in a wide variety of game, bullet weights, and distances at which the game was harvested (or lost). One can only assume that at least some degree of common sense must be used in selecting the appropriate range and game for each caliber shown; and this particular data was taken from your guided hunts. In the one or two instances that the game was "Unrecovered," I ascribed a 100 yard distance traveled for that data.

The ideal, of course, is Zero yards traveled after your quarry has been hit. Here are some examples from your book, ALL game shot at - Caliber / AVERAGE distance traveled (Yds) after being shot -
12 Ga. Slug / 28.75
20 Ga. Slug / 15
223 Rem / 47.25
25-06 / 62.62
270 Win / 50.24
30-06 / 48.55
30-30 / 47.61
308 Win / 61.27
35 Rem / 29.83
7mm Rem Mag / 33.11

More relevant to my game of interest - Hog, White Tail Deer, Mule Deer
Caliber / Avg Yds Traveled / Avg Range Shot
12 Ga. Slug / 15 / 50
20 Ga. Slug / 8.34 / 66.67
223 Rem / 53.63 / 91.82
25-06 / 67.91 / 114.33
270 Win / 76.07 / 106.14
30-06 / 53.15 / 100.91
30-30 / 52.63 / 80.40
308 Win / 64.85 / 88
- - (Surprise. Stats show lots of 100 yd shots, but same with 30-30!)
35 Rem / 43.57 / 96.43
- - (Skewed? - there was one of 7 that ran 100 yds)
45-70 / 7.5 / 80.63
7mm Rem Mag / 28.21 / 118.93
7mm-08 / 27.89 / 90.79

Since we are talking about CALIBERS and not individual bullets and their configurations, I recognize that certain observations are quite general, and that one really great bullet that is always adequately placed usually results in a totally successful shot. Nevertheless, given the whole gamut of data, one can see why the .30-30 in general is such a good choice for harvesting deer sized animals at 100 yards or a little less, especially with its light recoil and weight. I am even more impressed with its .35 caliber levergun cousin. But if you are experienced with the heavier push on your shoulder, ya gotta love the "dead right now" .45-70 in a good levergun at 50-100 yard ranges! Note that in these deer and hog stats, the average distance that the game was shot rarely exceeds 100 yards; a range quite comfortable to the levergun calibers.

[Lastmohecken]

I have shot a lot of deer with quite a few different rounds and witnessed several other deer shot with various rounds, and some guns do seem to anchor deer maybe a little quicker on average, but after shooting several deer with almost any caliber named, including .270, .308, 30-06, 30/30, 350 remington mag (which was about the best of them all for me), 375 HH Mag, 444 Marlin, etc, I find that the wrong bullet vs a good bullet that opens up quickly, but holds together, makes a lot of difference, but bullet placement is pretty much the deciding factor.

I have also dropped several deer (many of them running shots) with pretty poorly placed bullets and was surprised that the amimals dropped so quickly, while many other times, on perfect bullet placement, on a standing deer, had it run a ways, sometimes a hundred yards or better, before dropping.

And regarding rounds like the 444 Marlin and 45/70, I have seen these rounds drop deer DRT, but I have also seen deer run a hundred yards, leaking blood like it was comming out of a water hose, before dropping. If you hit enough bone, yeah, they will do a pretty good job of anchoring the animal, but poke it through the lungs, and it's likely to run a for a few seconds.

Sometimes the big guns don't always = a DRT deer, even with a perfect shot. If the nervous system isn't broken down, (brain, spinal collumn, or maybe some other heavy skeletal hit, then all bets are off, because a hit in the lungs or heart, will offen as not, let a deer run a little before falling down, no matter what you hit it with, although some rounds do seem to work better then others, but nothing is guaranteed. I have had quite a few deer shot with a arrow through the lungs fall quicker then the same hit (more of less) with a .270 Win using 130gr bullets.

I am not a big fan of neck shots, but on meat deer at close range, when I am absolutely sure of the placement, I will use it, as it usually drops them right there, My other favorite spot is a sorta high shoulder hit, as it is usually a knockdown siduation. Lungshots are deadly, but not always the quickest kill, as I have seen many run a ways, but not generally over 100yds, and most often only 30 to 50, but I have never seen a caliber yet with always drops then DRT with lungs shots, although I do hear other people swear that their super dupper caliber choice always puts them down. All I can say to that is I wonder how many deer one has actually shot, if they always Dropped dead in their tracks.