30-30 Reloading Question

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:57 am

First off, let me state, I have no experiance reloading bottleneck cartridges so any advice regarding the subject is welcome. I have reloaded straight wall pistol cartridges in .38, .357, .44 mag and .45 acp.

I know 30-30 ammo is fairly cheap for REM CORELOKT ($15 per box) however, I have quite a bit of brass sitting around now. I am currently considering reloading the caliber and looking to keep the load fairly economical. My goal for use is a general purpose round that could be used on both coyotes and whitetails.

I am considering the Missori Bullet Company in either the 135 gr or 165 gr lead cast bullets. Neither of these bullets use gas checks. I guess my question is how fast can a lead bullet be pushed without excessive leading? These bullets both have a BHR of 18. The gun I will be shooting them from is a Marlin 336 with the MIRCOGROOVE Barrel.

Do any of you have a recommendation on other bullets that are economical that would serve me better than a lead cast bullet?

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 5:11 am

Can't help much except any lead bullets I used had Lee liquid alox for lube and I never had any leading but never went over 1500fps!

Paco and others have stuck card or plastic to the base of non gas checked bullets, this may be an option with a loaded bullet that keeps it's base in the neck of the cartridge!.

Nath.

jlchucker · Post by **jlchucker** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 7:55 am

horsesoldier03 wrote:First off, let me state, I have no experiance reloading bottleneck cartridges so any advice regarding the subject is welcome. I have reloaded straight wall pistol cartridges in .38, .357, .44 mag and .45 acp.

I know 30-30 ammo is fairly cheap for REM CORELOKT ($15 per box) however, I have quite a bit of brass sitting around now. I am currently considering reloading the caliber and looking to keep the load fairly economical. My goal for use is a general purpose round that could be used on both coyotes and whitetails.

I am considering the Missori Bullet Company in either the 135 gr or 165 gr lead cast bullets. Neither of these bullets use gas checks. I guess my question is how fast can a lead bullet be pushed without excessive leading? These bullets both have a BHR of 18. The gun I will be shooting them from is a Marlin 336 with the MIRCOGROOVE Barrel.

Do any of you have a recommendation on other bullets that are economical that would serve me better than a lead cast bullet?

The 30-30 round is the very first one I started reloading for back at the start of the 1970's. Almost from the beginning I began casting my own for this caliber (Lyman 311041, a gascheck number). I've still got the mold and use it for my 170 grain loads. TO BEGIN WITH, I'D RECOMMEND BUYING THE LYMAN CAST BULLET HANDBOOK, THE LATEST LYMAN RELOADING MANUAL, OR BOTH, and read up on the subject. Lots of good information about cast bullets and published loading data in both books.

For the purposes that you describe, I'd probably want a gascheck bullet, about 150 grains for starters, and I'd look into casting my own. Not to slam Missouri Bullet Co's products in any way, but for best results the loads that you develop for your rifle will need to be fitted to that particular rifle.

Cast bullets can be as accurate and effective as jacketed ones. The big thing here is to FORGET how fast you can push them. Instead, go for accuracy at a given distance. Don't worry whether they'll have killing power--they definitely will penetrate and kill. Velocity is no substitute for shot placement, but if it worries you, a gaschecked 30-30 round can be easily pushed to factory jacketed velocities. As for leading, the key here is how the bullet fits the particular gun you'll shoot it from. You'll need to slug the barrel and do some micrometer measuring first. IMO proper fitting is much more important than bullet hardness. A properly fitted cast bullet can be very be accurate and won't be much of a leading concern.

Finally, the Marlin microgroove myth--and it is a myth! Marlins will shoot a properly fitted cast bullet with as much accuracy as you can develop a load for. Again, proper sizing, matched with the right load, will shoot as well out of a Marlin as you yourself can shoot. Good luck. You're headed down a path of no return, but you'll be doing lots of load development and shooting along the way.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:31 am

Bullets of different hardness' can be pushed to different velocities. The softer, the slower you'll need to go to avoid leading. So your first question needs to be, how hard are these bullets.

Lyman #2 lead, IIRC runs about 15 on the Brinell Hardness scale (or Bhn). And those can be saely pushed to around 1900fps. As you increase the tin or antimony you increase the hardness, but also the brittleness of the bullet. I generally run a bullet outta my .30-30s that runs about 18Bhn. And with their gas-checked design I can push them about as fast as I want.

The Los Angeles Silhouette Club Cast Bullet Notes page is possibly THE best resource for cast bullet data on the internet. Read in good health.

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:05 am

The 30-30 is perfect for paper patched bullets. Pure lead, when patched can be pushed to around 2200fps accurately. The pure lead gives awesome performance on game. Harder alloys can be pushed faster. I have taken an alloy of 18.5 BHN over 3000fps in a 300RUM with just under MOA accuracy. Paper patching will allow you to match the velocity and accuracy of jacketed bullets in any rifle, and in a few cases exceed it.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:22 am

I would suggest loading it with jacketed bullets at first while you learn a bit about bottle necked cartridges.

I'm not convinced cast is the way to go anyway.

Joe

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:25 am

Not familiar with the Missouri bullet co 30cals, but you'll want to go with a .310 diameter. 5744 powder will be your friend with cast bullets. If those bullets are #2 alloy or similar you should be able to push them up around 1800 or so with no leading problems, using 18.5 grs of 5744 .
Don't crimp any more than absolutley necessary with cast bullets, if you have a decent set of reloading dies neck tension will likely be sufficient to hold those bullets in place.
If you full velocity out of your rifle I'ld suggest watching for the Rem corelocs in bulk when one of the major catalog shops gets them on sale. Lots of times you can buy those cheaper than cast anways...

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:28 am

One more thing before you start shooting the cast bullets give that bore a good scrubing and make sure there's no copper fouling or other that will disturb that cast bullet, because if it finds someplace that disrupts it on the way down the barrel it'll leave leading and leading begets more leading.....

mikld · Post by **mikld** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 11:11 am

Heres some info for shooting cast in Microgroove barrels from the Marlin owner's site
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... ic=43865.0

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 8:24 pm

Griff wrote:The Los Angeles Silhouette Club Cast Bullet Notes page is possibly THE best resource for cast bullet data on the internet. Read in good health.

+1 on that resource...!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:09 pm

pdawg.shooter wrote:The 30-30 is perfect for paper patched bullets. Pure lead, when patched can be pushed to around 2200fps accurately. The pure lead gives awesome performance on game. Harder alloys can be pushed faster. I have taken an alloy of 18.5 BHN over 3000fps in a 300RUM with just under MOA accuracy. Paper patching will allow you to match the velocity and accuracy of jacketed bullets in any rifle, and in a few cases exceed it.

Sometime post a TUTORIAL on PaperPatching for the rest of us...!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:27 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
pdawg.shooter wrote:The 30-30 is perfect for paper patched bullets. Pure lead, when patched can be pushed to around 2200fps accurately. The pure lead gives awesome performance on game. Harder alloys can be pushed faster. I have taken an alloy of 18.5 BHN over 3000fps in a 300RUM with just under MOA accuracy. Paper patching will allow you to match the velocity and accuracy of jacketed bullets in any rifle, and in a few cases exceed it.
Sometime post a TUTORIAL on PaperPatching for the rest of us...!

It's tedius, time consuming & frustrating! Esprcially so w/smaller boolits!

At least that's my experience!

I'll stick to my gas-checks!

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:56 pm

Griff nailed it. Absolutely no good reason to patch smokeless powder rounds....
Long range blackpowder now that's another kettle of fish.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:52 am

Thanks for all the comments.

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:15 am

No reason to paper patch smokeless? How about no leading, ever? Or accuracy equal to or better than jacketed at the same or more velocity than jacketed. Or using a soft alloy to get near perfect expansion? Guess you are right, just not worth the effort!

DerekR · Post by **DerekR** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 10:36 am

Paper patching interest me, but I must admit to being a little intimidated by it. I have an old Winchester in .32 special that I would love to develope a paper patch load for.

SJPrice · Post by **SJPrice** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:08 am

Anyone interested in paper patched bullets should read "Forty Years With The 45-70" by Paul Mathews.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:17 am

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:31 am

WARNING! Thread deviation ahead.

Can you paper patch hand gun bullets?

Just a thought / question.

Joe

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 11:47 am

Sure you can, the question is going to be whether the patch makes the trip thru the cylinder gap or not.
It don't take long messing with paper patching to figure out why they went obsolete so fast.
Anything at all happens to the patch that don't agree with it, you got leading and a wild shot. You get the alloy to soft for a bullet design and you got nose slump and shotgun pattern groups. You get the alloy to hard and you've got bullets merrily hopskipping and jumping their way down the barrel.
Get everything exactly right and they can be quite accurate, get it just a little bit off and .....
Not to mention you can run a 100 bullets thru a lubriser in about 1/2 the time you can do a good job patching the same number of bullets.....

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:14 pm

J Miller wrote:WARNING! Thread deviation ahead.

Can you paper patch hand gun bullets?

Just a thought / question.

Joe

Yep, sure can. Just no advantage to it like in a rifle.

brno602 · Post by **brno602** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:32 pm

Just look in any reloading manual buy any 150gr or 170gr soft point.
Start low and work your way up easy!, the result will put a smile on your face. You can get into casting later.
It's that easy I cant think of a cal that is as easy to load for than a 30/30
My fav is a rather warm load of 748 and a 170gr Nozler or Hornady in my levers or a 150gr Seirra spitzer in my 788.
You will love loading and shooting a 30/30.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 8:48 pm

Don McDowell wrote:Not to mention you can run a 100 bullets thru a lubriser in about 1/2 the time you can do a good job patching the same number of bullets.....

½? MAYBE... if you have the patches precut AND you're a moderately good roller... or you ain't too persnickety!

pdawg.shooter wrote:No reason to paper patch smokeless? How about no leading, ever? Or accuracy equal to or better than jacketed at the same or more velocity than jacketed. Or using a soft alloy to get near perfect expansion? Guess you are right, just not worth the effort!

All of which are perfectly valid reasons to PP. But, all of which can be handled with jackets & gas checks. I'd rather spend the time & money in load development than in a special undersized slab-slided .30-30 mold, having the chamber throat re cut and then experimenting to get all the variables ironed out. But hey, if that floats yer boat... enjoy!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Jan 04, 2011 9:28 pm

brno602 wrote:My fav is a rather warm load of 748 and a 170gr Nozler or Hornady in my levers or a 150gr Seirra spitzer in my 788.

A 788 Remington in .30-30 would be sweet. I've always thought a .44 Mag one would be cool, as well. They don't seem to make bolt guns with that kind of 'pinpoint accuracy' reputation, chambered in rounds like that much these days.

gunner69 · Post by **gunner69** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:09 am

It's not a cheep plinking load I shoot but it is accurate as I think my 30-30 can shoot. I suggest visiting the Hornady site and getting some of their 160gr FTX Leverevolution bullets as well of their new powder to shoot them. I even shot some rabbits with them this year. If you doubt this statement buy a box of the loaded Hornady FTX to try out in your marlin. They are the cats meow on whitetail.......

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:25 am

Griff wrote:
Don McDowell wrote:Not to mention you can run a 100 bullets thru a lubriser in about 1/2 the time you can do a good job patching the same number of bullets.....
½? MAYBE... if you have the patches precut AND you're a moderately good roller... or you ain't too persnickety!
pdawg.shooter wrote:No reason to paper patch smokeless? How about no leading, ever? Or accuracy equal to or better than jacketed at the same or more velocity than jacketed. Or using a soft alloy to get near perfect expansion? Guess you are right, just not worth the effort!
All of which are perfectly valid reasons to PP. But, all of which can be handled with jackets & gas checks. I'd rather spend the time & money in load development than in a special undersized slab-slided .30-30 mold, having the chamber throat re cut and then experimenting to get all the variables ironed out. But hey, if that floats yer boat... enjoy!

No special mould needed, just a push through reducing die. No special throats needed and gas checks are still limited to the velocity they can get without leading. No leading possible with paper, the lead never touches the bore.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:26 am

[quote="pdawg.shoote
No leading possible with paper, the lead never touches the bore.[/quote]

Well that's the theory anyway, doesn't always work that way, but ....

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:28 am

Doesn't the paper wear the bore faster than even the jacketed bullets? Duckin' and runnin'...

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:38 am

Hobie I think it very well could if trying to go with the higher smokeless velocity, the low speed/pressure bpcr's I don't think so, unless a person is using an unknown pedigre paper, but something mostly rag content I believe to be harmful.

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:40 pm

Hobie wrote:Doesn't the paper wear the bore faster than even the jacketed bullets? Duckin' and runnin'...

For years I have heard the old saw about paper dulling a knife. Try this: sharpen your knife and cut a couple hundred pieces of paper. Now resharpen the same knife and see how many jacketed bullets you can cut.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Wed Jan 05, 2011 9:22 pm

pdawg.shooter wrote:
Hobie wrote:Doesn't the paper wear the bore faster than even the jacketed bullets? Duckin' and runnin'...
For years I have heard the old saw about paper dulling a knife. Try this: sharpen your knife and cut a couple hundred pieces of paper. Now resharpen the same knife and see how many jacketed bullets you can cut.

Mans got a point.

brno602 · Post by **brno602** » Thu Jan 06, 2011 5:52 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
brno602 wrote:My fav is a rather warm load of 748 and a 170gr Nozler or Hornady in my levers or a 150gr Seirra spitzer in my 788.
A 788 Remington in .30-30 would be sweet. I've always thought a .44 Mag one would be cool, as well. They don't seem to make bolt guns with that kind of 'pinpoint accuracy' reputation, chambered in rounds like that much these days.

Me too A honest 1'' shooting .44?
I love my ''cheap'' 788s I have three a .308 a 6mm and the 30/30.
Okay hang me now talking about them turn bolts

The 30/30 looks just like my 6mm 22'' barrel and shoots so good,too be honest it has seen more 110/125 gr gopher bullets than hunting bullets plus it loves cast bullets.
I really wish they made more Rifles, ie bolt rifles in 30/30 it is such a nice cal won't hurt you, still will drop a deer at normal ranges uses little powder.
If we took a really honest look at things for 75% of our hunting a 30/30 will do a fine job.This comming from a guy that shoots Gophers with a .375 H&H

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:10 am

pdawg.shooter wrote:
Hobie wrote:Doesn't the paper wear the bore faster than even the jacketed bullets? Duckin' and runnin'...
For years I have heard the old saw about paper dulling a knife. Try this: sharpen your knife and cut a couple hundred pieces of paper. Now resharpen the same knife and see how many jacketed bullets you can cut.

Some sorts of writing paper are whitened and polished with kaolin clay. http://www.imerys-paper.com/products/kaolin.html Scissors are dulled by that paper - supposedly could it wear the bore.

F.

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Fri Jan 07, 2011 1:11 pm

Old Shatterhand wrote:
pdawg.shooter wrote:
Hobie wrote:Doesn't the paper wear the bore faster than even the jacketed bullets? Duckin' and runnin'...
For years I have heard the old saw about paper dulling a knife. Try this: sharpen your knife and cut a couple hundred pieces of paper. Now resharpen the same knife and see how many jacketed bullets you can cut.
Some sorts of writing paper are whitened and polished with kaolin clay. http://www.imerys-paper.com/products/kaolin.html Scissors are dulled by that paper - supposedly could it wear the bore.

F.

I have used green bar printer paper for years. Works great and it is free!

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