Reloading truths and myths

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Griff
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Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

I've been asked to explain a comment I made in a PM. Regarding my reloading practice. Hence, I am putting up my theory for observation and comment by those who feel obligated to comment.

I'll try to keep this brief, but need to provide some background so you're not starting off without the whole story as they say.
Back to your observation regarding sharing cast (gas checked) loads with jacketed ones of the same weight - that goes against everything that I thought I had learned - starting pressure, different friction and plasticity factors of the two materials, and even different diameters (frequently) between jacketed and cast bullets of the same "caliber."
But you've been at this longer than me. If you post the comment, I'd sure like to see what you have to say regarding these issues.
Longer? Ain't sure. A little background tho': started reloading when my B-I-L gave me a box of gas checked 150 grain .309 bullets for Christmas, 1973. I'd won a mdl 64A Winchester in .30-30 during our cruise to VN that year. I'd been saving my brass from practice sessions off our fantail during the later part of the cruise. I was a member of our ship's pistol, security and demo team. Might've been the only guy in the Navy with my own stash of ammo and firearms in the ship's armory! Wonder if that'd happen in today's Navy? Anyway, I went out and bought my first reloading stuff at The Grant Boys in Costa Mesa. I got dies in .44Mag and .30-30 along with a RCBS Jr. press, a Lyman #45 reloading guide, a lb. of 3031 powder and 1K primers. I also bought a box of Sierra 150s to match the factory ammo I'd been shooting.

The gun guy at Grant Boys was a reloader and answered my hundreds of questions. One of which was about the range of powder charges shown in each powder for every caliber. The advice he gave me was to start by loading 5 rounds at about the mid point of the range, then load 5 more rounds at ½ grain increments up to the max. Shoot each of those in order until I get any signs of flattening primers or find a super accurate load. I found that 3031 wasn't a great powder for minute changes in powder charges. I tried several, including 4895, 4320 & 4350 before settling on RE-7. That has worked for me in my all my rifles. It's also the advice I tend to give for new reloaders... although on some rounds, like the .30-30, I tell 'em to start about ¾ of max, or around 20% below max.

Admittedly, I won't use this method in rounds like my .30-06 or 7mmRemMag. Mainly because I don't shoot lead bullets from either.

It may be counter-intuitive, as I've heard the same as you, but well after I'd established my loads. How can a can cast bullet sized at .309 have the same or lower pressure than a copper-jacketed round sized at .307 or .308? Here's my hypothesis: 1 - I use hard boolits (20Bhn), a good crimp, one which I think releases at a pressure above that which simply release an uncrimped bullet from the neck, regardless of whether it's copper clad or lead. 2- Even tho' the cast bullet is harder (arguably), than copper, it is lubed, and more malleable than the copper jacket; I can still make a mark in the lead bullet, but can't in the copper jacket...

Since I don't own a chronograph, the only way for me to check pressures is to watch for signs, and point of impact. After I'd established what factory load gave me the most accuracy outta my 64A, I worked on getting those cast bullets to shoot to the same POI. That also happened to be about 1-½ grains below the highest max load I've ever seen for a 150 grain bullet from any manual... about 27.5 grains of RE-7. It also happens to be the most accurate load I've found in my custom, heavy barreled mdl 94 in .30-30.

Admittedly, this is in a pistol cartridge, but... look at .45 Colt max loads, (from that same 1970 Lyman manual). It lists a max load for a 250 grain jacketed with Unique as 9.0 grains for 901fps... yet lists a max load for a cast in the same weight as 10.3 at 1028fps.
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That lil' bit of data extrapolates into that, in fact, lubed lead bullets can be pushed harder than their jacketed counterpart without excessive pressure. What effect a gas-check has vs. a full jacket, I've never investigated. Maybe my logic is faulty, but... I don't hotrod anything... I've seldom pushed the envelope on recommended loads... although newer manuals and web sources don't go to my 27.5 grains of RE-7 for a 150 grain pill in the .30-30. My 1980 Speer manual #10 lists 29 as max.

I get nice flat primers, but no indications that they're "flowing", just nicely flat. If you want, I'll post up on the board and open up for comments... might be interesting to see what others think.

The answer to that last was "yes", so there it 'tis. What say the experts on this?
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by RKrodle »

I no expert but that is what I was always taught. The same powder charge behind the same weight Jacketed and Cast bullet will have less pressure when used with a Cast bullet.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Don McDowell »

Griff the only thing I'ld take any notice of and its minor, a Chronograph only tells you how fast a bullet is going, and speaks to nothing about the pressures of a powder charge and bullet...
Otherwise looks good to me. :)
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

Don McDowell wrote:Griff the only thing I'ld take any notice of and its minor, a Chronograph only tells you how fast a bullet is going, and speaks to nothing about the pressures of a powder charge and bullet...
Otherwise looks good to me. :)
Aye, I know that... but without one, that POI is about the only good indication that I'm on target with matching velocity between two different loads. Since I change a LOT between jacketed and lead, changing sights and re-sighting in is a chore I'd rather avoid; having both lead and jacketed rounds shoot to the same POI seems like a good thing... in my warped mind.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by AJMD429 »

Griff wrote:...that POI is about the only good indication that I'm on target with matching velocity between two different loads. Since I change a LOT between jacketed and lead, changing sights and re-sighting in is a chore I'd rather avoid; having both lead and jacketed rounds shoot to the same POI seems like a good thing... in my warped mind.
Makes sense.

As far as pressure between jacketed and cast - I know I can push even a fairly hard cast lead bullet down a barrel with a dowel rod, but wouldn't it be quite a bit harder to push a jacketed bullet down a barrel with a dowel rod..? I'd try it if I had an old barrel I wasn't needing, but I'm afraid I'd get the bullet stuck and mess up a gun.

I know there is a big difference between 40,000 PSI of hot gas more or less instantaneously applied, vs. me shoving on a bullet with a wooden dowel, but if anyone has compared the force needed to shove a .308 FMJ down a .308 barrel, vs. a .310 lead one, I'd be interested.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Savage »

Well, from Lyman 46th with equal weight and velocity of bullet and with the same powder in the 30-06 the pressure can be higher with the CAST bullet by 4200 CUP. I suspect those factors will be reversed in other cases. I usually just load to the level that the primers look like factory loads - I would describe those as nicely rounded. If primers flatten I back off in most cases. But I have almost always had a chronograph and load to the velocity I want with the pressure and accuracy I want then adjust the sights then I usually don't change. I guess I have picked the powders that I like based on what performs under those parameters. My standard of accuracy is I want 1" or better at 100 yds for three shots and have been able to achieve this with all my rifles that I have worked with at all much.

I have noted with the factory condor loads we have to use the primers are pretty flat.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by w30wcf »

Griff,
My experience in the 30-30 with cast vs jacketed bullets indicates that with the same powder and charge weight, the cast bullet exits the barrel 50 to 100 f.p.s. faster than the jacketed bullet, depending on the powder used.

In looking at the 49th Edition of the Lyman manual here are some comparisons. What we don't know, however, is if the same lot of powders were used or if the same 24" universal reciever test barrel was used.

170 jacketed / 170 gr. cast bullet gas checked
H335
33.0/2135/35900 vs 32.5/2230/32800

3031
28.5/2054/36900 vs 28.5/2095/32500

In looking at those two examples, more velocity was generated with the cast bullet with about 10% less pressure.

748
35.6/2167/35300 vs 37.3/2355/35100
Interesting to note that the 35.6 load is 10% above the maximum recommended load by WInchester / Hodgdon. From the looks of it that was a slower burning lot of 748 and likely the same lot was not used for the cast bullet data.

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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Catshooter »

You're correct Doc, it takes much more force to push a jacketed bullet down a bore than a cast one, even if the cast one is bigger. So much so that driving a jacketed bullet down a bore is risky, unless you know exactly what you're doing and have the proper tools there is an excellent chance of it becoming stuck.

To the OP: I agree with your thoughts/observations/conclusions. Reloading is an interesting game. Some people will make much ado over the most unimportant things while some will nothing of the most critical. It can be tough to sort the wheat from the chaff at times. Old wives tales/just plain bullcrap abounds in the shooting and reloading world. And then there's casting!

This site: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/index.php is the place to go to learn what really works in casting and what doesn't.


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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Time Hunter »

Boy, been sitting here try'n to figure out the differences between cast and jacketed, while relating them to physical characteristics...it is start'n hurt what brain cells I have left! But, maybe a few calculations based on quantum mechanics (still think this is some kind of vodoo magic) can offer the dissimilarities. First, lead..even when "doped" with other elements, still has physical characteristics such as atomic weight, electron bonding, and intrisinctive values that are much different than copper. One of those characteristics is Pb to repel "free electrons", which are expelled in the form of pressure (energy), therefore when lead is exposed to the pressure of expanding electrons, the also repels the expanding pressure. 'Course this is what causes a piece of lead to transfer the pressure into momentum, and when placed in a closed environment in front of the point of least resistance, allows for the pressure to push the lead down the path of least resistance in a rush to free it self. And due to the "intrisinctive" values of the element Pb (all elements are basically liquid, just how fast the electrons are moving and how far apart they are), the lead resists the free electrons dissipitated by the energy while changing form to absorb the pressure. Hence, the bullet changes form, similar to throwing a water balloon, where the leading edge of water balloon is not moving as fast as the trailing edge so the material expands in the middle. In a barrel, this seals the portal better to take advantage of the expanding pressure. The gas check on the lead projectile does nothing directly to change this except to offer a barrier from heat changing the Pb from more of a solid into a liquid. All this is the reason a cast bullet generally has a higher velocity, cause it uses the pressure better.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

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Well maybe :D
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

Old Time Hunter wrote:Boy, been sitting here try'n to figure out the differences between cast and jacketed, while relating them to physical characteristics...it is start'n hurt what brain cells I have left! But, maybe a few calculations based on quantum mechanics (still think this is some kind of vodoo magic) can offer the dissimilarities. First, lead..even when "doped" with other elements, still has physical characteristics such as atomic weight, electron bonding, and intrisinctive values that are much different than copper. One of those characteristics is Pb to repel "free electrons", which are expelled in the form of pressure (energy), therefore when lead is exposed to the pressure of expanding electrons, the also repels the expanding pressure. 'Course this is what causes a piece of lead to transfer the pressure into momentum, and when placed in a closed environment in front of the point of least resistance, allows for the pressure to push the lead down the path of least resistance in a rush to free it self. And due to the "intrisinctive" values of the element Pb (all elements are basically liquid, just how fast the electrons are moving and how far apart they are), the lead resists the free electrons dissipitated by the energy while changing form to absorb the pressure. Hence, the bullet changes form, similar to throwing a water balloon, where the leading edge of water balloon is not moving as fast as the trailing edge so the material expands in the middle. In a barrel, this seals the portal better to take advantage of the expanding pressure. The gas check on the lead projectile does nothing directly to change this except to offer a barrier from heat changing the Pb from more of a solid into a liquid. All this is the reason a cast bullet generally has a higher velocity, cause it uses the pressure better.
I'm sorely tempted to challenge the electronic theorms present in this forum that automatically change language unsuitable for a family atmosphere into one so suitable. I actually understood that! :o :o You must be a teacher! :P :idea:
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Ben_Rumson »

IMO More friction from copper jacketed bullets is why they make more pressure than lead alloy bullets.. Where a lead alloy bullet can travel the bore and not lead the barrel, a copper jacketed bullet of same cal with the same load and approx same velocity will develop sufficient friction heat in the jacket to cause the lead core to melt where it contacts the lands...Note there are no signs of melting on the base..
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by JohndeFresno »

Griff wrote:
Old Time Hunter wrote:Boy, been sitting here try'n to figure out the differences between cast and jacketed, while relating them to physical characteristics...it is start'n hurt what brain cells I have left! But, maybe a few calculations based on quantum mechanics (still think this is some kind of vodoo magic) can offer the dissimilarities. First, lead..even when "doped" with other elements, still has physical characteristics such as atomic weight, electron bonding, and intrisinctive values that are much different than copper. One of those characteristics is Pb to repel "free electrons", which are expelled in the form of pressure (energy), therefore when lead is exposed to the pressure of expanding electrons, the also repels the expanding pressure. 'Course this is what causes a piece of lead to transfer the pressure into momentum, and when placed in a closed environment in front of the point of least resistance, allows for the pressure to push the lead down the path of least resistance in a rush to free it self. And due to the "intrisinctive" values of the element Pb (all elements are basically liquid, just how fast the electrons are moving and how far apart they are), the lead resists the free electrons dissipitated by the energy while changing form to absorb the pressure. Hence, the bullet changes form, similar to throwing a water balloon, where the leading edge of water balloon is not moving as fast as the trailing edge so the material expands in the middle. In a barrel, this seals the portal better to take advantage of the expanding pressure. The gas check on the lead projectile does nothing directly to change this except to offer a barrier from heat changing the Pb from more of a solid into a liquid. All this is the reason a cast bullet generally has a higher velocity, cause it uses the pressure better.
I'm sorely tempted to challenge the electronic theorms present in this forum that automatically change language unsuitable for a family atmosphere into one so suitable. I actually understood that! :o :o You must be a teacher! :P :idea:
OK - I admit that I don't. This thing about "free electrons" and "free radicals" (or is that something related to the acai berry?) - it is plenty confusing. Is this theory, or has it be proven in a lab?

It sounds like the atomic level properties of lead allow it to repel a buildup of pressure -??- and thus accelerate more quickly, as it balloons in the middle and kind of sloshes forward like a bucket of slung water - right?? I don't see how that would be sustained so quickly and within a 20 to 26 inch barrel.

I have always thought this, from what I have read and observed: Copper is hard. Lead is soft (Mebbe that is your "electron bonding" in that hard things have atoms closer together or whatever - huh?).

Copper, then, is harder to squeeze down, and is therefore more frictive than the softer, more pliable lead. Some of the pressure ("work" for physics types) is relieved on the lead because it is put to work molding the more plastic (pliable) lead as it expands into the rifling and therefore gives more at the base.

As inferred above, that seems a lot more believable to me than the statement that there is some type of mojo created from electron bonding (whatever that is) that "repels pressure."

I'm not being sarcastic; I am seriously and sincerely confused. It sounds like junk science. Please explain the source of this explanation - Thank you!
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Savage »

Actually above 1100 fps the expanding gas pushes the lead bullet out before the lead has any idea what is happening. it is the speed of sound because the lead listens for the bang. And over 1100 fps the lead is a little woozy but regains its bearings as it slows down and starts messing around stirring up the air etc. so - you have to shoot it fast enough that it never gets a chance to react then have the bullet hit before it regains its senses. Below about 1000 the lead really doesn't care - it is all the Zen and Tao of lead. You have to get the drop on it. :) :) :)
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

Old Savage wrote:...it is all the Zen and Tao of lead. You have to get the drop on it. :) :) :)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by kimwcook »

Griff wrote:
Old Savage wrote:...it is all the Zen and Tao of lead. You have to get the drop on it. :) :) :)
:lol: :lol: :lol:
Finally something I understand. :D :D
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

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Old Time Hunter wrote:Boy, been sitting here try'n to figure out the differences between cast and jacketed, while relating them to physical characteristics...it is start'n hurt what brain cells I have left! But, maybe a few calculations based on quantum mechanics (still think this is some kind of vodoo magic) can offer the dissimilarities. First, lead..even when "doped" with other elements, still has physical characteristics such as atomic weight, electron bonding, and intrisinctive values that are much different than copper. One of those characteristics is Pb to repel "free electrons", which are expelled in the form of pressure (energy), therefore when lead is exposed to the pressure of expanding electrons, the also repels the expanding pressure. 'Course this is what causes a piece of lead to transfer the pressure into momentum, and when placed in a closed environment in front of the point of least resistance, allows for the pressure to push the lead down the path of least resistance in a rush to free it self. And due to the "intrisinctive" values of the element Pb (all elements are basically liquid, just how fast the electrons are moving and how far apart they are), the lead resists the free electrons dissipitated by the energy while changing form to absorb the pressure. Hence, the bullet changes form, similar to throwing a water balloon, where the leading edge of water balloon is not moving as fast as the trailing edge so the material expands in the middle. In a barrel, this seals the portal better to take advantage of the expanding pressure. The gas check on the lead projectile does nothing directly to change this except to offer a barrier from heat changing the Pb from more of a solid into a liquid. All this is the reason a cast bullet generally has a higher velocity, cause it uses the pressure better.

WELL DOGGIES!!! JETHRO thats some mighty find cypherin! Like Griff, I am thinking I actually understood it. :D
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Time Hunter »

OK - I admit that I don't. This thing about "free electrons" and "free radicals" (or is that something related to the acai berry?) - it is plenty confusing. Is this theory, or has it be proven in a lab?
Ever wonder why lead makes a good insulator in regards to radioactivity...

In all seriousness though, it is more the liquid properties (maleable) of it's atomic molecular structure (sounds more technical this way) that include it's high density per the atomic weight. Or you can just use the analogy of the water balloon.....
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by adirondakjack »

We're making this harder than it has to be.

Lead is softer than jacketed, produces less resistance to being shoved down the bore, and will provide the LOW END charge less "help" building pressure.

Jacketed is harder, provides the low end charge a little more help, but, because it is hard, NEEDS a bigger minimum charge to prevent a squib. At the top end you CAN push pressures higher with jacketed without turning the bore to a snotty lead-lined pipe, if the gun will stand it. That said a lead bullet will go faster at the same pressure than will a jacketed bullet, at least until ya lead the bore up.

NO they ain't the same, never will be, but there are many instances when completely acceptable loads will be OK with the same charge and either lead or cast bullets, though the jacketed will make more pressure, and at the low end that might help even out the velocities, but at the high end, lead will shoot faster, assuming the pressures are high enough already for an efficient burn.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by JohndeFresno »

OK - the last two posts work for me. Thanks.

Now to figure out how the free atoms and hyper quadricility of a papaya smoothie work to clean out my system...
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

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JohndeFresno wrote:OK - the last two posts work for me. Thanks.

Now to figure out how the free atoms and hyper quadricility of a papaya smoothie work to clean out my system...
Especially if you eat a bowl of broccoli before you drink that smoothie :wink:
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

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Re: Reloading truths and myths

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Man, I liked the part about the zen stuff! Mine just uses voodo and it goes in the right direction. Forward last time I looked. Gonna have to get some of that zen thing going too. Then I'll have bullets that'll follow the terrain and shoot around corners! :D

But in keeping with the spirit of this thread, I aagree there can be a lot of difference with jacketed v.s. cast. But then again, the powder mfg's have testing equipment for pressures. I sure don't. I don't even have a crony, but I've been building rounds and shooting for over 45 plus years now. The only Ph.D I have is in "Post Hole Digging." The business of how the metal reacts to pressure, friction, shape retention under stress of propulsion, and all that I feel is best left to those that have the means to measure and test it correctly. If your doctor held you up to the light to see inside you rather than use an xray, then I'd find me another doctor.!

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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Savage »

Polymorphonuclear change of the reticuloendothelial system. Shoot soft lead slow and hard lead fast both a couple of thousandths oversize.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by adirondakjack »

Old Ranger wrote:Man, I liked the part about the zen stuff! Mine just uses voodo and it goes in the right direction. Forward last time I looked. Gonna have to get some of that zen thing going too. Then I'll have bullets that'll follow the terrain and shoot around corners! :D

But in keeping with the spirit of this thread, I aagree there can be a lot of difference with jacketed v.s. cast. But then again, the powder mfg's have testing equipment for pressures. I sure don't. I don't even have a crony, but I've been building rounds and shooting for over 45 plus years now. The only Ph.D I have is in "Post Hole Digging." The business of how the metal reacts to pressure, friction, shape retention under stress of propulsion, and all that I feel is best left to those that have the means to measure and test it correctly. If your doctor held you up to the light to see inside you rather than use an xray, then I'd find me another doctor.!

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How lead works VS a jacketed bullet inside a barrel (or even inside the throats of a cylinder in a revolver) isn't rocket science. Imagine trying to slug a bore with a jacketed bullet. Ya can't, at least without a big hammer and a sturdy vise. Slug a bore with dead soft lead? Easy. Hard alloy like WW and Linotype will be somewhere in between.

That resistance to movement buys the burning charge time to build pressure, which with smokeless powder equates to a faster progresing burn and more pressure yet, until the bullet finally moves or the powder is all gone. Pressure is about how much powder, it's burn rate, and resistance to movement of the bore obstruction known as a bullet. Two 250 grain bullets on top a shot of Bullseye in a .45 Colt case equals a blown up gun. A cardboard wad or plug of florist foam on top the same charge instead of a bullet and the powder probably would exit unburned, just charred from the primer flash. Gots to have pressure, and ya get that from bullet weight and hardness. We BALANCE the bullet weight and hardness by selecting the burn rate (powder type) and adjusting the charge to get the results we want in terms of pressure and velocity. That's why the charts show different charges producing different results, and some won't even list a jacketed bullet where they list loads for lead, etc. The right charge of the right powder for the bullet in use in a given cartridge and yer happy happy.

As Ole Elmer said "wandering off the books is for the man who fully knows what he is about." If yer guessing, don't. Otherwise ya might get a lot more time visiting docs, or explainin why yer blind.....
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Savage »

The whole problem started with gunphopomorhism. Some folks think guns are beings or almost people. In the worst cases they refer to them as "her" or "she'. Look, you load something into these things and they "shoot something out" often into things. Now does that sound like "her" or does it remind you of something else, "not her". When someone does this I may like them and be entertained by them but ---- I don't listen to anything else they say from then on. :shock: Now lead - inert for the most part until folks impart Zen or Tao into it. Then ..... but, I don't let my guns know and they shoot them (lead, jacketed) mostly the same. Wake up sports fans - this ain't rocket science and there really is no flux capacitor and as I noted to some ladies on facebook - Bambi is a cartoon and there really is no Donald Duck. Reality people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Hawkeye2 »

"All this is the reason a cast bullet generally has a higher velocity, cause it uses the pressure better."
Does this mean I can drive a cast bullet faster if I add Valium to the alloy?


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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by JohndeFresno »

Thanks for the OP, Griff - we have some interesting answers and some zany (perhaps even insane) ones. It makes for good reading either way - or as with a common expression of 2010 - "It's all good!"
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by piller »

Lead feels slick, copper gives a good grip. Lead has a much lower shear strain tolerance and the atoms will shear form one another easier than copper will. Minute particles of lead caught on the imperfections of the steel barrel will come free easier and allow the bullet to continue on its merry way with less loss of velocity. Try tearing a thin strip of lead and a thin strip of copper of the same dimensions. The lead tears much easier. If we really want to involve rocket science, I will call the man who was the lead designer of the Trident missile, but this is not rocket science.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Sixgun »

I have 16 million books written by experts and one thing I have learned, and thats what Veral Smith says in his "Jacketed performance with cast bullets" book. You can take everything he says in that book "to the bank".

He says, "You can shoot a cast bullet about 200 fps faster than a jacketed bullet with equal pressures."

No matter how hard your lead is, its still WAY softer than jacket material.

That book has enough information in it to give a novice shooter a master's degree in reloading cast bullets. -----------------Sixgun
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Chas. »

I would post my comments and conclusions to this thread, but I'm not sure what the question is. :D
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Savage »

Jacketed bullets are better but if you want to use cast go ahead.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

Old Savage wrote:Jacketed bullets are better but if you want to use cast go ahead.
Are ye tryin' to bait the animals? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Savage »

Sorry Griff but other than being cheaper don't think I see a thing they are better at and maybe yes - but just for the sake of discussion and I just bought a bunch. Oh well we can make them ourselves though so why not make them work for everything - smallest group I ever saw for a 375 H&H was with cast - 250 gr at about 2500 and .27".
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

Old Savage wrote:Sorry Griff but other than being cheaper...
No need OS... that is and of itself is sometimes a sufficient reason, and makes them better in certain applications.

I'm a biggie on them for shootin' steel. I've yet to shoot an animal with anything but jacketed.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by JohndeFresno »

Chas. wrote:I would post my comments and conclusions to this thread, but I'm not sure what the question is. :D
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by bcp »

How can a can cast bullet sized at .309 have the same or lower pressure than a copper-jacketed round sized at .307 or .308?
Aside from all the other reasons posted, the cast bullet will be barrel size as soon as it enters the rifling. It is larger than the jacketed for only a fraction of an inch.

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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by adirondakjack »

bcp wrote:
How can a can cast bullet sized at .309 have the same or lower pressure than a copper-jacketed round sized at .307 or .308?
Aside from all the other reasons posted, the cast bullet will be barrel size as soon as it enters the rifling. It is larger than the jacketed for only a fraction of an inch.

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As anybody who has ever set a rivet can attest, put a fairly close fit piece of metal in a hole and smack it hard, it WILL BE bore size right now. A jacketed bullet will "bump up" a little, a soft lead bullet will do so a little more, but both will squeeze down the barrel like toothpaste out of the tube when pushed hard by that pesky hot gas wanting out..... The malleability and slipperiness of lead makes the difference VS the harder copper.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Ranger »

Maybe its just me, but I think we've worn this thread out....all this talk about slick slugs has made my head hurt! Ouch!:D

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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by BAGTIC »

Myth 1. The heat of combustion melts the lead.

Myth 2. Bore friction melts the lead.

Truth. The lead bullet does not melt.

Some of the temperature increase of the bullet comes from hot gases.
Some of the temperature increase comes from friction,
Some of the temperature increase comes from hysteresis, the physical deformation of the object.

Anyone who has ever broken a piece of metal by working it back and forth (work hardening) should have noticed how in the process it becomes hotter. That is one reason that blacksmiths could bind two pieces of metal together by pounding it. Imagine subjecting a piece of lead or brass to 10-40 thousands of pound pressure in a millisecond. The energy that goes into deforming that metal is going to be transformed into heat.

Many years ago the NRA did experiments measuring the pressure produced by jacketed bullets with varying lead core hardness. Surprise. The hard cores did NOT result in higher pressures. They consistently resulted in significantly lower pressures. The harder (stronger) cores are less subject to radial expansion from foreshortening therefore they exert less expansive pressure on the inside of the jacket which in turn reduces pressure.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by JohndeFresno »

BAGTIC wrote: ...Anyone who has ever broken a piece of metal by working it back and forth (work hardening) should have noticed how in the process it becomes hotter. That is one reason that blacksmiths could bind two pieces of metal together by pounding it...
Uhhh...careful - I take all of these physics related posts pretty seriously, even if I'm not a college grad. The blacksmith uses a forge to heat the metal, first.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

BAGTIC wrote:Myth 1. The heat of combustion melts the lead.
Myth 2. Bore friction melts the lead.
Truth. The lead bullet does not melt.
Some of the temperature increase of the bullet comes from hot gases.
Some of the temperature increase comes from friction,
Some of the temperature increase comes from hysteresis, the physical deformation of the object.
Anyone who has ever broken a piece of metal by working it back and forth (work hardening) should have noticed how in the process it becomes hotter. That is one reason that blacksmiths could bind two pieces of metal together by pounding it. Imagine subjecting a piece of lead or brass to 10-40 thousands of pound pressure in a millisecond. The energy that goes into deforming that metal is going to be transformed into heat.
Many years ago the NRA did experiments measuring the pressure produced by jacketed bullets with varying lead core hardness. Surprise. The hard cores did NOT result in higher pressures. They consistently resulted in significantly lower pressures. The harder (stronger) cores are less subject to radial expansion from foreshortening therefore they exert less expansive pressure on the inside of the jacket which in turn reduces pressure.
No, the hot gases and/or friction reduce the surface adhesion to a point where it can be smeared onto the cooler surface of the bore. Maybe it ain't "melting", but the end result is the same... lead is transferred from the bullet to the bore. So that will likely still remain the layman's simple definition of the process.

And blacksmith's require enough heat to reduce the surface adhesion of the steel so that same transference of steel from one part to another so that the two parts adhere to each other. It is not humanly possible to generate that amount of heat by pounding alone. Having fit hundreds of horse shoes by pounding on cold steel, they ain't ever got even warm, let alone hot enough to hammer forge together. Having formed enough "bar" shoes of various designs as to consider myself reasonably proficient at it, I'd still say it requires "melting" to do.

Think of it this way, you can crush two blocks of ice pounding on them before they'll stick to each other; yet, if you can the temperature enough to remove the surface tension enough so that the molecules can move on both blocks, they'll stick together as fast as if they were formed as one piece when allowed to cool again. So, while you haven't "melted" either block, you have effectively "melted" them together. Maybe not scientific, but serves as well.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Thunder50 »

JohndeFresno---Just add about a tablespoon of Habanero pepper powder (pure stuff) to your smoothie, and I will bet the the coeffecient of friction in your gastrointestinal tract will be lowered to where you can, as my Grandad used to say, "hit the eye of a needle at 10 paces" :lol:
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by JohndeFresno »

Thunder50 wrote:JohndeFresno---Just add about a tablespoon of Habanero pepper powder (pure stuff) to your smoothie, and I will bet the the coeffecient of friction in your gastrointestinal tract will be lowered to where you can, as my Grandad used to say, "hit the eye of a needle at 10 paces" :lol:
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Gobblerforge »

Hey Griff. I saw a video where a smith hammered a 1/4" piece of steel about 40 times real fast and was able to generate enough heat to light a cig. I was impressed. I have heard of Japanese smiths hammering a piece of iron enough to get thier fire started from the heat. I have to try this some time. As far as welding two pieces of steel together, I do this regularly at the forge. For those that have never hammered hot metal, there is a lot of heat generated from hammering. Learning how to harness and use that heat is a part of Blacksmithing. For those that have hammered hot steel, have you ever noticed that when hitting an iron at say dull orange, the iron will heat to bright orange where it is struck for a moment? The iron's temperature was raised a couple hundred degrees and fast. This same hit when the iron is almost at welding temp causes the iron to raise above welding temp momentarily and allows the molocules to bind together to form a forge weld.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Time Hunter »

where a smith hammered a 1/4" piece of steel about 40 times real fast
This might be a problem...I do not think I can hammer anything 40 times real fast anymore...I'd need at least two of those blue pills to even contemplate that!
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Griff »

Well, I ain't got an arm that could, never did, never will. And once yer close to molten in the fire, those whacks are what'll put it over into weld! I've only used a coal/coke forge, and temp control is the hardest thing. I'd like a propane forge... but it's farther down the list than a bunch of other things... like a new rifle or two. :mrgreen: :P :P
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Old Savage »

Well Gobller, that seemed clear enough. Also sound like you need a running start on the heat unless you have some superhuman arm.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Charles »

I thought is was a given and well established fact that all things being equal a lead alloy bullet will give higher velocity at a given pressure than a jacketed bullet of the same weight.

The why is obvious, the lead takes less pressure to deform and conform to the lands and grooves of the barrel than the guilding metal jacketed bullet because the metal jacket is much harder to deform. Less friction is also a factor but the lower shear/tensile strength of the alloy is the major reason. More of the pressure is available to move the alloy bullet down the barrel.
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Re: Reloading truths and myths

Post by Gobblerforge »

Old Savage wrote:Well Gobller, that seemed clear enough. Also sound like you need a running start on the heat unless you have some superhuman arm.
Exactly right. That's what the coal forge is for. Suplimental BTUs, and lots of em.
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