New Winchester Model 94 Rifles

Dave B · Post by **Dave B** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:26 am

Their website shows a Model 94 Sporter Rifle with 24" half round half oct. barrel:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/ ... amily=003C

And a Model 94 Short Rifle with a 20" round barrel:

http://www.winchesterguns.com/products/ ... amily=003C

I wonder if and where they will be made.

Dave B

Beamy85 · Post by **Beamy85** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:51 am

Miroku probably, that's where they built the Oliver Winchester Bicentennials models that were sold last year

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 9:21 am

No "if's" or "when's" about it - they're built in Japan by Miroku with Winchester markings, complete with rebounding hammers (a 30min fix) and tang safeties.

I expect that the price point(s) will fall somewhere around $1500 - take it or leave it, for a new "Winchester".

Va-va-voom.

.

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:11 am

I would be more apt to think about one if they didnt have the tang safeties on them. Be nice if you could put a tang sight on there if you wanted too.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 10:19 am

Marbles makes a tang sight that fits with the safety. No problem. Just remember to move it to the "fire" position, and that's it off!

Rube Burrows · Post by **Rube Burrows** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:12 am

Griff wrote:Marbles makes a tang sight that fits with the safety. No problem. Just remember to move it to the "fire" position, and that's it off!

I never seen those. Learn something new everyday.....if you pay attention.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:21 am

I don't have a 94...I think I'm going to look for a nice 1951 Model, the year I was born.

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 11:34 am

I kinda like that. Cut the mag tube back to a button and put a pistol grip on it and you almost have Tom Horn's rifle. His had a tang sight on it IIRC. Belongs to the Cowboy Hall of Fame (I know, they changed the name but I can never remember the new one). Haven't seen it on display in several years. Always intended to build myself a copy of it.

M. M.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 12:17 pm

they are japchesters ...not winchester......
I will not buy an "American" icon with the words stamped in it...made in japan...
buy an original....per 64.....Like i said before, many times, they can keep'em
especially for 1500 smackers....for that price they could have made them in
south carolina plant...

Ya know, if John Wayne were alive at his 100th birthday...
and saw the 92 commemorative with his name and likeness on it....and the made in japan
stamped on the barrel.....he would smash it just like the 73 in Fort Apache....

its a matter of principle.....to me anyways....

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:45 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:they are japchesters ...not winchester......
I will not buy an "American" icon with the words stamped in it...made in japan...
buy an original....per 64.....Like i said before, many times, they can keep'em
especially for 1500 smackers....for that price they could have made them in
south carolina plant...

Ya know, if John Wayne were alive at his 100th birthday...
and saw the 92 commemorative with his name and likeness on it....and the made in japan
stamped on the barrel.....he would smash it just like the 73 in Fort Apache....

its a matter of principle.....to me anyways....

Well said!!

And look at this inletting, this is a $1200 lever gun??

It's insane. My prediction is that they'll sell just about zero of the standard 20" rifles and you'll eventually see them deeply discounted from Davidson's. Even at $700 on closeout they'll be over priced.

Oly

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Jan 21, 2011 6:53 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:they are japchesters ...not winchester......
I will not buy an "American" icon with the words stamped in it...made in japan...
buy an original....per 64.....Like i said before, many times, they can keep'em
especially for 1500 smackers....for that price they could have made them in
south carolina plant...

Ya know, if John Wayne were alive at his 100th birthday...
and saw the 92 commemorative with his name and likeness on it....and the made in japan
stamped on the barrel.....he would smash it just like the 73 in Fort Apache....

its a matter of principle.....to me anyways....

I'm in 99% agreement with you. The exception is the part on the "1500 smackers" I say "0" smackers

-------------------------------Sixgun

Bob Winchester · Post by **Bob Winchester** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:58 am

They are selling for about a grand at Gandar Mountain here in Indiana. They are nice rifles but for $500 less I'd rather just get the model 92 from Rossi or $700 less buy a good used one from a gun shop.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 1:55 am

Colts at one time were made in England.

American icon anyone?

Guns get made everywhere, regardless of where they were originally built.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:20 am

MrMurphy wrote:Colts at one time were made in England.

American icon anyone?

Guns get made everywhere, regardless of where they were originally built.

Colts made in England?...never seen one......or heard of it...
must have been a smalll blip in colts history....

True....and I own a few.....spegetti guns
but im still a little ticked about WWII.....

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:18 am

Colts were made in England under license to Colt. At the same time as Colts were being made here. Not in place of, but in addition to. It's not the same thing as the current Winchesters being made in Japan instead of the US.

Joe

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:20 am

If it's cheaper to make them overseas, then why are they asking twice as much for them as they used to? I love the '94 design, and I would tolerate the hammers and safeties, but I cannot support Winchester's arrogant greed. Apparently, they have themselves confused with Holland & Holland.

And if I want a 92, I'll buy it from Rossi. At least they are well-made (in the Western Hemisphere) and fairly priced. And Brazil has never bombed us.....yet.

bogie

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:24 am

And BTW, how much can you change a design and still call it a "Model 94"?

bogie

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:27 am

I'm aware of that J.

Companies make business decisions. Some people don't like them. With all the millions of Winchesters out there, nobody's forcing people to buy these.

I'd rather they made them in the US, but i have worked in the gun industry for a manufacturer and honestly, leverguns are a niche item. They'll never make enough for a company that size if that's ALL they are making, and Winchester kind of gave up on the military/police/defense market 20-30 years ago for serious competition despite some very nice designs (FN currently produces them and does well).

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:38 am

I will look at them and if I like it and it is a good price - likely not 1200 I will get one. Nobody building them over there now bombed us. On the other hand, big unions here and the teacher's unions are supporting democrats that are trying to take our rights so if I can avoid buying from big unions I will and I won't be voting for any bonds for the schools.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 12:53 pm

I think everyone here should send winchester......really Fn.....
a nice little email what we think of the 94 japchesters......
If they would have made them here....
there would be one or two in my gun rack already...
and i would not mind paying more for it either....
just as long as the quality has improved over the later new haven stuff.....

Bob Winchester · Post by **Bob Winchester** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:18 pm

Just send them a copy of the thread!

It won't do any good cause Winchester and Olin are owned by those Your-a-peons now!

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:57 pm

Old Savage wrote:...Nobody building them over there now bombed us. On the other hand, big unions here and the teacher's unions are supporting democrats that are trying to take our rights so if I can avoid buying from big unions I will and I won't be voting for any bonds for the schools.

Good points. However, I'm still confused on how they can justify making them cheaper yet selling them for twice as much. ???

Bogie

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 7:03 pm

I won't be buying any of the new 94's, luckly because I already own several of the originals.

There's still a lot of pre-64 model 94's out there, at the bigger gunshows, in the price range of $400.00 to $1,200 and some a lot higher, so If I was going to get another one, I much rather buy a slick original for $600 or maybe a little more, then sink even the same money in the new ones.

However, "made in Japan" doesn't bother me, because the Japs have made a lot of nice leveractions in the past, like the Brownings before Winchester went nuts with all of the stinking safetys and rebounding hammers and such. Some of the best guns I have say "made in Japan" on them, but I will not put up with anymore guns that get the lawyer liability treatments.

chadbr · Post by **chadbr** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 8:49 pm

Bogie35 wrote:If it's cheaper to make them overseas, then why are they asking twice as much for them as they used to?

2 reasons I can think of -
-the price of wood and metal have skyrocketed over the last 5 years
-they want to stay in business this time

If they sell fewer and make better profit, they won't complain.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:37 pm

Chadbr: BINGO!

WyrTwister · Post by **WyrTwister** » Sat Jan 22, 2011 11:39 pm

Pete44ru wrote:No "if's" or "when's" about it - they're built in Japan by Miroku with Winchester markings, complete with rebounding hammers (a 30min fix) and tang safeties.

I expect that the price point(s) will fall somewhere around $1500 - take it or leave it, for a new "Winchester".

Va-va-voom.

.

I will leave it .

God bless
Wyr

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:15 am

chadbr wrote:
Bogie35 wrote:If it's cheaper to make them overseas, then why are they asking twice as much for them as they used to?
2 reasons I can think of -
-the price of wood and metal have skyrocketed over the last 5 years
-they want to stay in business this time

If they sell fewer and make better profit, they won't complain.

Maybe they should buy their wood and metal from the same places that Marlin, Rossi, Remington, and Ruger buy theirs.

bogie

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 2:53 am

Joe,
The London Colts weren't made under license, they were made in a factory opened by Sam Colt & run in loose connection with his Hartford plant.
Some interchange of personnel & parts from the American factory.
They were genuine Colts.
Denis

Cimarron · Post by **Cimarron** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:43 am

Bogie35 wrote:And BTW, how much can you change a design and still call it a "Model 94"?

bogie

Good question.

Cimarron · Post by **Cimarron** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 9:50 am

Bogie35 wrote:
Old Savage wrote:...Nobody building them over there now bombed us. On the other hand, big unions here and the teacher's unions are supporting democrats that are trying to take our rights so if I can avoid buying from big unions I will and I won't be voting for any bonds for the schools.
Good points. However, I'm still confused on how they can justify making them cheaper yet selling them for twice as much. ???

Bogie

I wondered the same thing back in 2001 when I bought a new Dodge diesel pick up. They were making them in Mexico and at St Louis at the time. No discount for the south of the border version though. Gotta say my St Louis version has only need one repair in the last 10years/150,000 miles and that was a front wheel bearing.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:36 am

You guys mention the quality of the later New Haven Winchesters being a bit suspect, and now i read feedback about miscellaneous issues people have with new Marlins and my thought is not "How come they're making 'em in Japan?" but rather "Thank goodness they are making them in Japan ! "

The Miroku people have been making excellent Winchesters and Brownings for a long time and it shows. MAking them in Japan is not about saving money either, because Japanese labor is more expensive than US labor. Its about bringing a nicer product to market than they could domestically.

That said, we could do the same thing over here if we upgraded existing manufacturing facilities and the like, but the price of each item would reflect this, and as MrMurphy aptly stated -- leverguns are a niche item and it would take forever to re-coup the cost

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:34 pm

The decision to go with Miroku was based on money, in the sense that it was cheaper to contract with the plant that already makes leverguns than to tool up with entirely new machinery & fixtures from the get go.
Europe & China were considered, but it was felt that the market would not accept those sources on a 94, whereas the market they see for the gun has been accepting Japanese levers for quite a while.

The factory can only produce a limited number each year, the gun is now a high quality nostalgia piece like the 92s & 86s, with a price to match.
It's not viewed as an entry level hunter or workingman's gun anymore.

Even if they had decided to go domestic, the 94 would still not have been priced anywhere near what it was at the end of New Haven production.
Denis

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 1:50 pm

If you take alook at what a Winchester cost in 1916 an compare it against todays prices, they're a smaller part of a persons income now than they were 100 years ago or even 50 years ago.

Just absolutley comfounds me as to why shooters would gripe about a company offering rifles, seems like in this day and age anybody that like real guns ought to be tickled to death someone is ready willing and able to make them and offer them for sale.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:02 pm

Don McDowell wrote:If you take alook at what a Winchester cost in 1916 an compare it against todays prices, they're a smaller part of a persons income now than they were 100 years ago or even 50 years ago.

Just absolutley comfounds me as to why shooters would gripe about a company offering rifles, seems like in this day and age anybody that like real guns ought to be tickled to death someone is ready willing and able to make them and offer them for sale.

missing the point....made in USA VS made in japan

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 4:07 pm

I have handled the Miroku made Browning marked 92s and 86s. I like them. They are nice well made quality rifles.
I have never said anything against those.

Where I draw the line is rebounding hammers and safeties. It don't matter where those are coming from I won't own another one. And to mark Japanese made replicas as Winchesters is insulting to our history as far as I'm concerned.

As for the rifle being "a smaller part of a persons income now than they were 100 years ago or even 50 years ago", that might be true on paper, but I don't know anybody personally, and know very few from the forum(s), that can just go and drop $1,000+ on a new rifle.
I know I sure can't. About $500.00 ± was my limit when I was working full time + overtime. That included my income tax refund and all I could save up. And that was almost 30 years ago.

Joe

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:16 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:
Don McDowell wrote:If you take alook at what a Winchester cost in 1916 an compare it against todays prices, they're a smaller part of a persons income now than they were 100 years ago or even 50 years ago.

Just absolutley comfounds me as to why shooters would gripe about a company offering rifles, seems like in this day and age anybody that like real guns ought to be tickled to death someone is ready willing and able to make them and offer them for sale.
missing the point....made in USA VS made in japan

Nope not missing the point.
Not likely to see any more USA made winchester leverguns, so we go with the prooven quality of the products from the Miroku plant.

mohavesam · Post by **mohavesam** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:04 pm

I say let's just see what they feel like IRL. And how they shoot. Until somene who has bought one posts here, it's all pure conjecture and emotion. I prefer hands-on experience & facts.

I don't care that they're made by Miroku. In fact I think they'll be recognized as a finer machine than New Haven ever made.

Sacrilege? no, just fact. My Miroku M71's are excellent rifles and adjusting for rarity & inflation, have appreciated more than the Winchester originals already!

Point taken from previous posts - If FN could have made them in SC and made margin; they would have. And they still might! Time will tell. I'm just waiting for a Winchester-branded 1894 in all-STAINLESS!!!

And as for Rossi - sorry. As much as I'm tempted to buy a 92 copy - One split barrel (under 20 rounds new) was enough for me. Never again.

kaschi · Post by **kaschi** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:14 pm

You know, friends, it's time for a company like Big Horn, Ballard, Freedom Arms or US Firearms to start making these again. That would be a great compromise.

556A2 · Post by **556A2** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:17 pm

J Miller wrote: And to mark Japanese made replicas as Winchesters is insulting to our history as far as I'm concerned.

Technically, you could call any post-1931 Winchester a replica.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:01 pm

J Miller wrote:I have handled the Miroku made Browning marked 92s and 86s. I like them. They are nice well made quality rifles.
I have never said anything against those.

Where I draw the line is rebounding hammers and safeties. It don't matter where those are coming from I won't own another one. And to mark Japanese made replicas as Winchesters is insulting to our history as far as I'm concerned.As for the rifle being "a smaller part of a persons income now than they were 100 years ago or even 50 years ago", that might be true on paper, but I don't know anybody personally, and know very few from the forum(s), that can just go and drop $1,000+ on a new rifle.
I know I sure can't. About $500.00 ± was my limit when I was working full time + overtime. That included my income tax refund and all I could save up. And that was almost 30 years ago.

Joe

hit the nail on the head.....

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 11:16 pm

Replica is something made by a company that doesn't hold the name and the patent. Ie Rossi,Uberti, or Chiappa
Anything coming from the Miroku plant and marked with the Winchester trademark and proof mark is not a replica.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:36 am

Don McDowell wrote:Replica is something made by a company that doesn't hold the name and the patent. Ie Rossi,Uberti, or Chiappa
Anything coming from the Miroku plant and marked with the Winchester trademark and proof mark is not a replica.

It's not a Winchester either.
Don, why are you shilling for Browning-FN-Herstal-Miroku et al?
Are you invested in those companies?

The pure fact of the matter is, a rifle made in Japan by Miroku and sold by Browning is no more a Winchester than it is an American made product.

Joe

SJPrice · Post by **SJPrice** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 8:03 am

This thread has gone off a cliff.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:20 am

Joe , we're just going to have to agree to disagree at this point.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:32 am

SJPrice wrote:This thread has gone off a cliff.

Yeah, about three pages ago.

Don McDowell wrote:Joe , we're just going to have to agree to disagree at this point.

Looks that way don't it.

Joe

TMair · Post by **TMair** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:36 pm

Don McDowell wrote:Replica is something made by a company that doesn't hold the name and the patent. Ie Rossi,Uberti, or Chiappa
Anything coming from the Miroku plant and marked with the Winchester trademark and proof mark is not a replica.

I have to agree, those guns, like the 94 we are talking about, contracted with Miroku by Winchester to make them are Winchesters, just like the Brownings are Brownings.
Terry

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 6:50 pm

So let's be concise, Winchester (aka Olin Corporation), has licensed Herstal Group, (aka FN, Browning, USRA &/or Miroku) to build rifles & shotguns of Winchester design and use their (Winchester's) name on them. THAT makes 'em Winchesters.

IMO, if they'd really wanted to build the nostalgia pieces like they've done with they've with the mdls 53, 65, 71, 1886 & 1892, they'd have built them to the original pattern, not this mamby-pamby AE version. Especially as this ain't intended to, as said above, be an entry level hunting arm. Any value increase as collectors ain't gonna be seen by the original puchaser, but by that buyer's 4th or or 5th generation heirs; IF it can be kept in the family; and then only IF we and the heirs can keep the 2nd Amendment alive & forceful. That's TWO huge "IFs"; what're the odds in the overwhelming PC political climate of today? (note 1)

Actually, I can understand the move to a safety besides just the trigger block, but the rebounder seems to be measureably unreliable. To the point that reports of FTFs are not uncommon. Maybe even to the point that if one were to select such an arm to hunt dangerous game and your body was found with 6 or 7 unfired rounds next to it, but exhibiting slightly dimpled primers next to it, the manufacturer would have a defense!

notes: (1) PC = Public Cowardice, as evidenced by the unwillingness to fight for the Constitution for fear of one's political future or the freedon from tyranny.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:28 pm

Griff the one report I saw out of the Shotshow the new 71 does not have the rebounder, and I was unclear as to whether it had the tang safety.(end of comments responding to griff)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

( begin posting of general statement not directed at any person place or thing in particular)

So far the only model that has the AE feature is the 94. But if more people squall that they want to mount a scope like they do on Marlins, then I would presume the 94's only ae could be subject to change.
I still think instead of having mambypamby hissy fits, we should be thankful that companies still have a desire to try and sell firearms in the US market.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 10:37 pm

Don McDowell wrote:Griff the one report I saw out of the Shotshow the new 71 does not have the rebounder, and I was unclear as to whether it had the tang safety.
So far the only model that has the AE feature is the 94. But if more people squall that they want to mount a scope like they do on Marlins, then I would presume the 94's only ae could be subject to change.
I still think instead of having mambypamby hissy fits, we should be thankful that companies still have a desire to try and sell firearms in the US market.

Don,
We ain't disgreein'... AFAIK, the '86 is the only one of those I named w/ the rebounder. I freely admit that any market for the TE is probably smaller than the "scope-it" crowd. But, we'll never really know, as starting with the USRA assumption of production, the only TE offered was the 1894-1994 Centennial model; and it sold out!

Ain't no hissy-fit, but I refuse to spend my dollars on an article I don't want; nor feel any compunction to refrain from expressing an apparently minority opinion. I'll reserve my gratitude when they offer what I want to buy; and believe me, I'll be loquacious in my praise.

TMair · Post by **TMair** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:35 pm

Griff the only thing I think you and I dissagree on is weather it is a Winchester or not, I have a modle 94 AE trapper in 45 LC, I like it ok but it reminds me of toy rather then a gun with the rebounding hammer, and the cross bolt safty which broke by the way so now I just have what amounts to two plugs in holes that should not have been there in the first place, I haven't had any trouble with the rebounding hammer, but I still don't like it, I much prefer my Rossi 92 in 44 Mag, I just wish it would have been in 45 LC instead of the Winnie.
I would have much prefered the tang safty then the cross bolt, I think I could ignore the tang safty much easier then that stupid cross bolt.
And I ain't payin $1500 for a production gun from anyone...does that make me cheep?
Terry