Puma Winchester M92...454 Casull...New Addition!

[rbertalotto]

Cruising by a few gun shops on Friday I happened apon a brand new, in the box Puma (Rossi) Winchester M92 in 454 Casull. The price was right, but I needed another rifle like I needed a hole in the head! I own a Freedom Arms Model 83 in 454 Casull and I love shooting and reloading for that cartridge. But, I walked............

Saturday morning I woke up early and decided I wasn't earning Jack Sheet on my meager investments, so I might as well invest in another rifle..........Back to the gun shop with money in hand and I now own a very nice Winchester M92.......



First thing I did was replace the sights. The front got a Williams Fire Sight.



The El' Cheepo rear sight was replaced with a Marlin sight from a 1895G to which I added two white dots.



I went to the range with so 45 Long Colt and a few "hot" 454 rounds. The rifle is a puppy dog with even heavy loads in 45LC, but the 454 rounds get your attention. Thank God for a nice factory recoil pad.



With both loads, the rifle was well under 2" at 50 yards, cycled great and is simply a pleasure to shot. Extremely smooth action and the trigger is satisfactory.

I'm glad I came to my senses and made this purchase!

[AJMD429]

I'm curious - I've seen two Rossi's that have the knurled magazine cap, and are 'tube-loaders' through a cartridge port in the magazine tube (like many .22 LR's are), but both had a thicker cap, and it was set up threaded (rather than the in-and-twist like .22 LR ones or some automobile taillight bulbs used to be).



The one you have looks almost like it has a 'stop' there to keep you from turning it more than one revolution, so is it an in-and-twist type one, or is it just an optical illusion (my old eyes) and not even a tube-loader...?

[rbertalotto]

It is a "tube feed" or you can load it through the loading gate on the side of the receiver. And both 45LC and 454 Casull will load through the side gate.

The magazine tube is threaded and it has a spring loaded detent that holds it in position. It is not threaded but as you suggested, like a cars tail light bulb.

[pricedo]

I'm curious - I've seen two Rossi's that have the knurled magazine cap, and are 'tube-loaders' through a cartridge port in the magazine tube (like many .22 LR's are), but both had a thicker cap, and it was set up threaded (rather than the in-and-twist like .22 LR ones or some automobile taillight bulbs used to be).



The one you have looks almost like it has a 'stop' there to keep you from turning it more than one revolution, so is it an in-and-twist type one, or is it just an optical illusion (my old eyes) and not even a tube-loader...?

Apparently Rossi had to go to the threaded magazine cap because the previous configuration was self destructing (magazine cap retention pin shearing) under the heavy recoil of the .454 cartridge.
The OP might have a .454 Rossi 92 with the earlier, more fragile magazine cap configuration.
I won't go into the gory details which are discussed at length in other Rossi related threads on this board.
Apparently the steel in the Rosschesters is significantly stronger & harder than the "soft" steels in the purebred Winchester 92s.
I don't think you'd want to re-chamber an original Winny 92 to .454 Casull unless you think shades & a white cane are a cool fashion statement.

[rbertalotto]

I don't think you'd want to re-chamber an original Winny 92 to .454 Casull

Upwards of 65,000psi! Need heap good metal to contain that pressure.............

[.45colt]

Good Lookin and I hope it holds up for You. I have had the same set of sights set up on one of My levers and it was about like a low power scope.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I'm curious - I've seen two Rossi's that have the knurled magazine cap, and are 'tube-loaders' through a cartridge port in the magazine tube (like many .22 LR's are), but both had a thicker cap, and it was set up threaded (rather than the in-and-twist like .22 LR ones or some automobile taillight bulbs used to be).



The one you have looks almost like it has a 'stop' there to keep you from turning it more than one revolution, so is it an in-and-twist type one, or is it just an optical illusion (my old eyes) and not even a tube-loader...?

That gun may be new but is old stock. Early on the 454's had that bayonet arrangement that ¼ turns into a slot in the bottom of the barrel. The outer tubes didn't screw into the receiver either. The whole mag assem. was held by that cap turned into the slot in the barrel.
The current 454’s (since about 05) have inner mag tubes that screw into the outer mag tube and the outer is screwed into the receiver.

This is the newer version.Notice the fully knurled mag cap.

[pricedo]

I'm curious - I've seen two Rossi's that have the knurled magazine cap, and are 'tube-loaders' through a cartridge port in the magazine tube (like many .22 LR's are), but both had a thicker cap, and it was set up threaded (rather than the in-and-twist like .22 LR ones or some automobile taillight bulbs used to be).



The one you have looks almost like it has a 'stop' there to keep you from turning it more than one revolution, so is it an in-and-twist type one, or is it just an optical illusion (my old eyes) and not even a tube-loader...?

That gun may be new but is old stock. Early on the 454's had that bayonet arrangement that ¼ turns into a slot in the bottom of the barrel. The outer tubes didn't screw into the receiver either. The whole mag assem. was held by that cap turned into the slot in the barrel.
The current 454’s (since about 05) have inner mag tubes that screw into the outer mag tube and the outer is screwed into the receiver.

This is the newer version.Notice the fully knurled mag cap.

I think the message to read between the lines here for the OP is to keep an eye on that tube magazine that is not very well secured on either end on his earlier edition Rossi 92/454.
There have been posts on this & other gun message boards about the magazine assembly coming loose under the vicious .454 recoil on the "pre-threaded" Rossi 92/454s.
Knowing the dismal history of these earlier edition Rossi 92/454s I'm wondering if there are any pro-active preventative strategies that could be undertaken at this point to prevent the self destruction of the OPs gun under recoil.
I wish the OP good luck with his gun.

OP - Opening Poster on the thread

[Bill in Oregon]

I thought OP meant original poster.
Anyway, cool 92!

[rbertalotto]

prevent the self destruction of the OPs gun under recoil.

Wow, I had no idea these rifle were so poorly made.......Guess I better get rid of it before self destruction..............

[earlmck]

Wow, I had no idea these rifle were so poorly made.......Guess I better get rid of it before self destruction..............

I'm glad you started this thread, rbert: I learned something here, 'cause I didn't know about those magazine tube issues. Turns out I ended up with one of the new style, but I doubt it'll make a lot of difference for me. As you noticed, those full-bore 454 loads "get your attention". The cast-bullet loads at 1500 fps are so much more pleasant to shoot (and much cheaper, too) than those 300gr. XTPs at 2100fps. No contest: the cast bulllet loads will outnumber the "full-bore" loads about 1000:1 for me, and I'll bet the same for you. At that rate the mag tube will last indefinitely, I'd guess.

I'll keep a few of those warm-loaded XTPs around in case I have to repel griz. Otherwise they aren't going to get much play.

[AJMD429]

Wow, I had no idea these rifle were so poorly made.......Guess I better get rid of it before self destruction..............

Here's the thread that got us talking on this forum about that issue. . . or non-issue. . .

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=12008

Don't draw any conclusions until you read the whole thread, though.

[rbertalotto]

Thanks for the link............a great read!

I have a Marlin 1894CB in 45LC. I load a very stout hunting load for that gun, that many gun scribes assure the Marlin 94 action will easily digest. BUT.....it bothers me to shoot such a hot load in that gun.

Due to a bad motorcycle accident a couple years ago I broke my right wrist. I now have one of two "transplant" wrist in the country. Lots of metal hardware in there also. This precludes me from shooting full house loads in the Freedom Arms Casull, even after I installed a muzzle brake on it.



So this Puma will most likely never see a full house 454 Casull load. For the Marlin I use 454 brass cut down to 45LC length. The stronger case will do well to absorb the extra pressure. I believe the Puma will be plenty strong enough, and stronger than the Marlin 94...........Plus, I like the way the 92 carries and handles for hunting purposes. If I need more fire power I have a custom 1895G with a 24" octagon barrel in 45-70..............Elk, look out!

[AJMD429]

Thanks for the link............a great read!..............

This forum is a veritable COMPENDIUM of levergun information...

I believe the Puma will be plenty strong enough, and stronger than the Marlin 94...........Plus, I like the way the 92 carries and handles for hunting purposes. If I need more fire power I have a custom 1895G with a 24" octagon barrel in 45-70..............

That's pretty much the way I feel about mine (a 'threaded' one). Any gun pushed to its 'limits' will be stressed and not last long, whether it is an older .22 LR you're shooting Maxi-Mags in, or a .460 Weatherby you're hot-loading. If I need more than a 'reasonable' .454 Casull load out of my Rossi, I'll grab the .444 Marlin...

[pricedo]

prevent the self destruction of the OPs gun under recoil.

Wow, I had no idea these rifle were so poorly made.......Guess I better get rid of it before self destruction..............

Accounts of the older Rossi M92/454s (without the threaded tube magazines) falling apart after not even a box of full power .454 ammo was fired are numerous on other message boards.
Obviously the problem was wide spread because Rossi modified the design of its 92/454s to strengthen the magazine tube with threading on both ends. A nice byproduct of the redesign was the threaded cap & extractable inner magazine tube & the loading slot to permit magazine tube loading & unloading.
The proprietor of Steve's Gunz is a member here & could possibly comment on this topic based on his vast experience working on & repairing Rossi 92s.
If I had one of the earlier guns & intended to shoot a lot of full power .454 loads I would be looking at proactive modifications I could make to strengthen my gun BEFORE it came apart as apparently happened to so many owners of the earlier edition Rossi 92/454s.
If you stick to .45 LC loads there would probably won't be a problem.
I own one of the new edition Rossi 92/454s with the redesigned threaded tube magazine & really like the mag tube loading/unloading capability.
I have put at least 500 full powered .454 loads through my 92/454 & the thing is solid as bedrock.

**I wish Hornady would market LEVERevolution ammo for the .454 Casull using the 225 & 250 grain FTX bullets because the Hornady FTX spire point ammo feeds really nice through my Rossi Trapper in .44 Mag. & apparently the velocity gains over conventional ammo are significant.

[pricedo]

Wow, I had no idea these rifle were so poorly made.......Guess I better get rid of it before self destruction..............

Here's the thread that got us talking on this forum about that issue. . . or non-issue. . .

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=12008

Don't draw any conclusions until you read the whole thread, though.

The owner of ANY Rossi 92/454 who reads the entire EYEOPENING contents of the thread referenced in the URL above can not help but feel depressed & apprehensive.
That this scary stuff is being said by credentialed experts in the gun manufacturing/repair profession doesn't allay the feeling of apprehension one little bit.
That apprehension might manifest itself in a bead of cold sweat rolling down your back as you squeeze the trigger of your Rossi 92/454 on that very next full power .454 round.
I have pushed a lot of .454 fodder through my gun but will be hand loading my next batch to 45 LC +P levels with a target threshold pressure of < 50,000 psi.
I think the factory stuff is running around 55,000 psi max.
Hopefully Hornady will soon market LEVERevolution FTX .454 ammo using their proprietary powders that delivers the same velocity as full powered conventional .454 ammo but with a lower peak chamber pressure.
My eyes may be old and dim but I'd like to keep them intact, steel free & in my head until the coppers are placed on their lids at my funeral.

[rbertalotto]

That apprehension might manifest itself in a bead of cold sweat rolling down your back as you squeeze the trigger of your Rossi 92/454 on that very next full power .454 round.

Man, you are one seriously melodramatic dude!..................But I like your style..........


Signed......

Not depressed, shooting my ready to explode Puma............

[pricedo]

I still like the idea of packing a lever gun the same caliber as my Ruger Super Redhawk .454 revolver on deer & moose hunts in Maine.
Maybe someday Ruger will make a companion lever action rifle as stout as its Super Redhawk DA revolver without the need to use "watered down" ammo in the rifle.
If anyone can bring success & triumph to the continuing sad saga of "the .454 lever guns that couldn't" my money's on Ruger to pull it off.
My Rossi is a hunter though........I know of one buck that'll never know it was killed by a "lamer" lever gun .

[rbertalotto]

How about this...........My Puma is serial number is MA5802 and Kittery Trading Post, Maine, in the used gun department has the same gun with serial number MA5803!

http://www.ktpguns.com/interior.php/pid/28/gid/159590

[southfork]

Better buy that one too, rbertolotto! That's quite a coincidence ... nah, it's fate. you are supposed to own them both!

[AJMD429]

How about this...........My Puma is serial number is MA5802 and Kittery Trading Post, Maine, in the used gun department has the same gun with serial number MA5803!

Well, you could always buy it as a 'parts gun', or progressively hot-load one until it blows up, then you could assume that was the 'absolute max. load' for the other one...

Personally, unless I needed to shoot maximum loads, if I had an 'early' .454 Casull, I'd likely just treat it as a VERY solid .45 Colt that could handle "+P+" Colt loads consistently (and better yet, loaded in .454 Casull brass to minimize chamber crud). I'm sure others would differ on that - some would say get rid of it and get a newer/stronger one - but why, since you already stated your desire isn't to shoot hot loads anyway...?

Due to a bad motorcycle accident a couple years ago . . . this Puma will most likely never see a full house 454 Casull load.

If someday you come across one you like better, you can always 'trade up', I guess.

Ideally, a gun should always be able to handle a steady diet of the 'hottest' factory loads it is chambered for, but there are some really GOOD guns that don't; the S&W Model 29 comes to mind. They are great guns, but folks who've shot them alot generally say they will 'shoot loose' sooner, versus, say a Ruger Redhawk. Which is prettier, which is easier to tote, which is stronger, which do you prefer...? Maybe different answers to each of those, and different for different shooters. Lots of folks just prefer the way the S&W Model 29 'carries and handles' vs. the Redhawk; same with .45/.454 leverguns:

Plus, I like the way the 92 carries and handles for hunting purposes.

There ARE some small/custom makers turning out .454's now (but I've yet to actually see/handle one), so hopefully soon there will be more choices other than just a 'new' Rossi and an 'early' Rossi...

[pricedo]

That apprehension might manifest itself in a bead of cold sweat rolling down your back as you squeeze the trigger of your Rossi 92/454 on that very next full power .454 round.

Man, you are one seriously melodramatic dude!..................But I like your style..........


Signed......

Not depressed, shooting my ready to explode Puma............

Shooter safety is one area where we can't bury our heads between our butt cheeks..........we have to say it like it is.
SAAMI essentially defines the parameters for each registered cartridge such as dimensions & peak operating pressure.
The .454 Casull is a SAAMI registered cartridge (no longer a wildcat).
One of the prime reasons for the SAAMI standardized criteria is shooter safety.
A shooter has to know the limitations of the firearm that he is using.
If a firearm cannot function within the full scope of the parameters of the SAAMI definition of a .454 Casull then it is NOT a .454 Casull it is something else, call it a 45 LC +P or a 45 LC +P+ or whatever, but it's NOT a .454 Casull.

[Alloy Snake]

I sure am glad I found this forum and particular this thread.I recently purchased a 16 inch stainless 454 and love the way it looks and handles.It is the screw type magazine tube which leads me to what happened on my 3rd 454 round-It striped the threads on the end and just popped foward-I dont want to send it back and hope there may be another solution-I was thinking a small pin or something at the end of the tube.Any advice would be appreciated as I really like these 454s.

[rbertalotto]

Was the magazine tube loaded with cartridges. I would think a full load of cartridges would put a lot or weight and pressure against that cap during recoil. Especially since your rifle with a 16" barrel has less weight and mass at recoil.

Were you shooting "full house" 454 loads when it happened?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I sure am glad I found this forum and particular this thread.I recently purchased a 16 inch stainless 454 and love the way it looks and handles.It is the screw type magazine tube which leads me to what happened on my 3rd 454 round-It striped the threads on the end and just popped foward-I dont want to send it back and hope there may be another solution-I was thinking a small pin or something at the end of the tube.Any advice would be appreciated as I really like these 454s.

That's an easy fix. Just screw it back in, drill it and pin it.

[pricedo]

I sure am glad I found this forum and particular this thread.I recently purchased a 16 inch stainless 454 and love the way it looks and handles.It is the screw type magazine tube which leads me to what happened on my 3rd 454 round-It striped the threads on the end and just popped foward-I dont want to send it back and hope there may be another solution-I was thinking a small pin or something at the end of the tube.Any advice would be appreciated as I really like these 454s.

If a threaded base gripping on multi threads in the receiver isn't going to withstand your 454s recoil a small pin sure as heck isn't.

I've fired quite a few full power .454 rounds through my threaded tube magazine 20" blue Rossi 92/454 & it is still tight.......knock on wood (Rossi mystery wood that is ).

My gun is an Amadeo Rossi Puma, not a Braztech Rossi & doesn't have the safety on the receiver. It appears to be very solidly constructed.

If I were to buy a new 16" Braztech Rossi I wouldn't go beyond (in cartridge power level) a .44 Mag model based on what I've read over the past couple of days.

From all the threads I've read on this & other boards it doesn't look like the Rossi 92s are winning the war with the vicious .454 Casull recoil.

[Alloy Snake]

The magazine tube had 2 rounds in it and I was using 240 grain Hornadys.If I need to back down on power I will but was really planing on using it as a pig popper in the woods.I think part of the problem if not all is the fact that stainless is softer and the threads are shallow/fine.Once I find a suitable pin I will try that.I also found it wont load 45 colts-I have to hand feed thoses to it.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I sure am glad I found this forum and particular this thread.I recently purchased a 16 inch stainless 454 and love the way it looks and handles.It is the screw type magazine tube which leads me to what happened on my 3rd 454 round-It striped the threads on the end and just popped foward-I dont want to send it back and hope there may be another solution-I was thinking a small pin or something at the end of the tube.Any advice would be appreciated as I really like these 454s.

If a threaded base gripping on multi threads in the receiver isn't going to withstand your 454s recoil a small pin sure as heck isn't. I've fired quite a few full power .454 rounds through my threaded tube magazine 20" blue Rossi 92/454 & it is still tight.......knock on wood (Rossi mystery wood that is ).

My gun is an Amadeo Rossi Puma, not a Braztech Rossi & doesn't have the safety on the receiver. It appears to be very solidly constructed.

If I were to buy a new 16" Braztech Rossi I wouldn't go beyond (in cartridge power level) a .44 Mag model based on what I've read over the past couple of days.

From all the threads I've read on this & other boards it doesn't look like the Rossi 92s are winning the war with the vicious .454 Casull recoil.

Sure it will. He didn't say it was pulling out of the receiver. Screw the inner back into the outer, drill through both about 1/4" back for a .120" Dia. pin. You won't be able to tube load but few people use it anyway.

As to the recoil issue, I've sold several of these 454 guns and that has not been my experience.

[pricedo]

I sure am glad I found this forum and particular this thread.I recently purchased a 16 inch stainless 454 and love the way it looks and handles.It is the screw type magazine tube which leads me to what happened on my 3rd 454 round-It striped the threads on the end and just popped foward-I dont want to send it back and hope there may be another solution-I was thinking a small pin or something at the end of the tube.Any advice would be appreciated as I really like these 454s.

If a threaded base gripping on multi threads in the receiver isn't going to withstand your 454s recoil a small pin sure as heck isn't. I've fired quite a few full power .454 rounds through my threaded tube magazine 20" blue Rossi 92/454 & it is still tight.......knock on wood (Rossi mystery wood that is ).

My gun is an Amadeo Rossi Puma, not a Braztech Rossi & doesn't have the safety on the receiver. It appears to be very solidly constructed.

If I were to buy a new 16" Braztech Rossi I wouldn't go beyond (in cartridge power level) a .44 Mag model based on what I've read over the past couple of days.

From all the threads I've read on this & other boards it doesn't look like the Rossi 92s are winning the war with the vicious .454 Casull recoil.

Sure it will. He didn't say it was pulling out of the receiver. Screw the inner back into the outer, drill through both about 1/4" back for a .120" Dia. pin. You won't be able to tube load but few people use it anyway.

As to the recoil issue, I've sold several of these 454 guns and that has not been my experience.

I didn't think of the possibility of a difference in the metallurgy of the stainless steel vs blue steel making the gun more susceptible to the described problems..........but if the stainless is softer it makes sense.

I think a lot more Rossi 92/454 owners use the tube load than you think......I love it and wouldn't want to give it up.......in fact if I was having the same problems as a previous poster outlined I'd dump the gun if the supplier or Braztech couldn't find a permanent solution to the problem without sacrificing the tube load capability. If these guns were selling for $250 that would be be one thing but the 92/454s are retailing for $600+ and I expect a modicum of quality, reliability & durability for that kind of money.

I own a blue 20" bbl. Amadeo Rossi 92/454 from the LSI Puma era that has no lawyer safety, the double threaded magazine & tube loading capability & I've popped a whole lot of full power factory .454 rounds with it & everything is still tight. It's amazing how a 5 pound gun can take that kind of punishment & stay in one piece. Maybe I got the pick of the litter because there is no denying that some people (too many) have had problems with these guns.

Judging from the testimony on the quoted 2008 thread from credentialed people in the gun manufacturing/repair industry & the problems and weaknesses discussed therein in relation to the Rossi 92/454 this is a gun living on the edge. Remember that the factory ammo being used is a full 10,000 psi under the SAAMI maximum. How well would the 92/454s digest loads at peak SAAMI chamber pressure? I'm a hand loader but I certainly won't be loading anything more potent than the 240 grain Hornady HP factory loads that run about 55,000 psi into my 92/454 any time soon.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Makes you wonder how they can keep making them, don't it?

[pricedo]

Makes you wonder how they can keep making them, don't it?

I'm glad I bought my Rossi 92/454, I'm very fond of it & look forward to years of shooting & hunting enjoyment with this gun.
I'm glad that I have a better idea of the limitations of my new firearm based on the experiences of others.
One of the benefits of internet message boards is sharing of information that will make the sport as safe as possible for all.
To me the Rossi 92/454 is a .45LC +P+ gun & I'll be setting a theoretical limit of 50,000 - 55,000 psi for my hand loads.
What each individual owner does is his/her own business...........it'll be their eyes & hands on the firing line when they squeeze the trigger.
I don't know about you but I didn't come with any spare parts.
Shooting is one endeavor where it is better to err on the side of caution.

[slimster]

The first 454 Rossi that I had was one of the blue ones with the old style loading tube. I didn't have a problem with it, but the guy I sold it to has. I wasn't aware that the early ones didn't have the tube threaded at the receiver end. Steve, can the new style be retro-fitted? The stainless one I have now has been problem free so far. As far as the receiver and barrel withstanding the 454, I thought I had read that H.P. White labs had thoroughly proof tested this. Maybe it was in Paco's article on Gunblast?

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

The first 454 Rossi that I had was one of the blue ones with the old style loading tube. I didn't have a problem with it, but the guy I sold it to has. I wasn't aware that the early ones didn't have the tube threaded at the receiver end. Steve, can the new style be retro-fitted? The stainless one I have now has been problem free so far. As far as the receiver and barrel withstanding the 454, I thought I had read that H.P. White labs had thoroughly proof tested this. Maybe it was in Paco's article on Gunblast?

Correct, the actions are holding up fine. The problems have been mostly with everything else holding on for dear life. There were reports of the headspace growing with some but I know that some were incorrectly headspaced off the ejectors from the get-go and those guns only got worse. I see this with the other calibers fairly regular so I suspect the majority that had problems were caused by the same incorrectly headspaced issue.
Retro fitted? Do you mean the old style retro-ed to the new screw-in outer mag tube? That would be hard because the new receiver is threaded and the old isn't and the hole will be too large.

[slimster]

The first 454 Rossi that I had was one of the blue ones with the old style loading tube. I didn't have a problem with it, but the guy I sold it to has. I wasn't aware that the early ones didn't have the tube threaded at the receiver end. Steve, can the new style be retro-fitted? The stainless one I have now has been problem free so far. As far as the receiver and barrel withstanding the 454, I thought I had read that H.P. White labs had thoroughly proof tested this. Maybe it was in Paco's article on Gunblast?

Correct, the actions are holding up fine. The problems have been mostly with everything else holding on for dear life. There were reports of the headspace growing with some but I know that some were incorrectly headspaced off the ejectors from the get-go and those guns only got worse. I see this with the other calibers fairly regular so I suspect the majority that had problems were caused by the same incorrectly headspaced issue.
Retro fitted? Do you mean the old style retro-ed to the new screw-in outer mag tube? That would be hard because the new receiver is threaded and the old isn't and the hole will be too large.

What I was wondering was if the old style receiver could be threaded to accept the newer threaded mag tube? Heli-coil maybe? I will pass this info on to the friend who bought my old one. Thanks.

[pricedo]

The first 454 Rossi that I had was one of the blue ones with the old style loading tube. I didn't have a problem with it, but the guy I sold it to has. I wasn't aware that the early ones didn't have the tube threaded at the receiver end. Steve, can the new style be retro-fitted? The stainless one I have now has been problem free so far. As far as the receiver and barrel withstanding the 454, I thought I had read that H.P. White labs had thoroughly proof tested this. Maybe it was in Paco's article on Gunblast?

Correct, the actions are holding up fine. The problems have been mostly with everything else holding on for dear life. There were reports of the headspace growing with some but I know that some were incorrectly headspaced off the ejectors from the get-go and those guns only got worse. I see this with the other calibers fairly regular so I suspect the majority that had problems were caused by the same incorrectly headspaced issue.
Retro fitted? Do you mean the old style retro-ed to the new screw-in outer mag tube? That would be hard because the new receiver is threaded and the old isn't and the hole will be too large.

We have danced around the issue a fair bit in this thread & others & that naturally begs the 2 questions stated below:

Is there, or is there not a pro-active fix or retrofit that will prevent an old style Rossi 92/454 with the unthreaded tube magazine from falling apart under recoil as some owners have experienced?

If there is.........what is it??

[slimster]

Steve and pricedo, I would think that there would be some way to make the new mag tube work in the old style receiver. If the hole was too large to thread out for the new tube, it doesn't seem to be so much difference that you couldn't use a helicoil for the threads. Those are some pretty handy things.

[AJMD429]

If the hole was too large to thread out for the new tube, it doesn't seem to be so much difference that you couldn't use a helicoil for the threads. Those are some pretty handy things.

I don't know what a "helicoil" is, but it does seem like if you could thread the receiver, a 'collar' might be placeable that would have proper-sized threads on the inside of it to fit the smaller tube.

Here's an idea - what if the collar and tube were designed so that the magazine were removable with a quarter-twist or something, and such that a 'cartridge stop' were incorporated into the tube part. The idea being that you could remove a loaded magazine (and have a spare or two, perhaps of different lengths, or with different loads, in your magazine 'quiver'). I suppose that you wouldn't want to be in front of that magazine if the 'stop' were accidentally activated, though...

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Anything can be fixed if you throw enough money at it. The question should be is there an economical fix. In that light there's no cheap fix to attach the outer tube to the receiver that I'm aware of. Or safe either if it involves taking more metal from the hole there in the receiver. Keep in mind, that hole is directly below the chamber. How many remember the pictures of the Marlin 1895 that blew out in that exact same place.

..................................................

Here's an idea - what if the collar and tube were designed so that the magazine were removable with a quarter-twist or something, and such that a 'cartridge stop' were incorporated into the tube part. ............................................

That's exactly what you have with the older ones now. Except it's up front. That caps turns into the slot milled into the bottom of the barrel. It has a wimpy spring detent that is supposed keep it from turning. Which brings me to the cheap fix. Take that spring and detent out. Make a longer screw to bottom out into the barrel. The screw keeps the inner from turning so the cap stays in the slot. Now, inorder to remove the inner tube you have to loosen the screw.

I just did the exact same mod for one of the lucky guys at LSI. He has the only know 41mag Rossi 92 that I know of and it had the same setup.



For a little added protection glass bed the forewood into the receiver socket and silicone it to the outer tube. (silicone because with a little heat down the tube it will come loose)

[pricedo]

prevent the self destruction of the OPs gun under recoil.

Wow, I had no idea these rifle were so poorly made.......Guess I better get rid of it before self destruction..............

A word to the wise so you don't get caught in the same predicament as the quoted poster.
A real cheap price tag is sometimes a clue that there is "stuff" you should know about the firearm on the rack that you're not being told.
I'd be checking any prospective Rossi 92/454 purchase over real close to see if it was the new threaded model or the old style without the threaded magazine tube & if it is the latter leave it on the rack unless it's very, very cheap AND you're OK with shooting only .45 LC or watered down .454 Casull hand loads.

I sure am glad I found this forum and particular this thread.I recently purchased a 16 inch stainless 454 and love the way it looks and handles.It is the screw type magazine tube which leads me to what happened on my 3rd 454 round-It striped the threads on the end and just popped foward-I dont want to send it back and hope there may be another solution-I was thinking a small pin or something at the end of the tube.Any advice would be appreciated as I really like these 454s.

The magazine tube had 2 rounds in it and I was using 240 grain Hornadys.If I need to back down on power I will but was really planing on using it as a pig popper in the woods.I think part of the problem if not all is the fact that stainless is softer and the threads are shallow/fine.Once I find a suitable pin I will try that.I also found it wont load 45 colts-I have to hand feed thoses to it.

I'd think twice about buying a stainless model Rossi 92/454 until the "soft metal" issue was resolved.........did the quoted poster get a bad gun or is the problem generic with stainless 92/454s ???

[AJMD429]

Keep in mind, that hole is directly below the chamber. How many remember the pictures of the Marlin 1895 that blew out in that exact same place.

That's a very good point!

I've always wondered what could be done if someone took the basic Marlin design, and simply scaled things 'up' a bit so the receiver was a bit wider, and perhaps altered the geometry of the lever/lifter enough that the magazine-barrel axis could be just a bit farther apart, what could be accomplished with regards to the larger-caliber and higher-pressure rounds like the .500 S&W. It seems like even the .45-70 is a bit of a 'stretch' for the Marlin receiver - one reason I'd pick the .444 Marlin vs. the .45-70 if I had to go with one lever-gun for long-range/high-power needs. More room around the cartridge in that relatively slim receiver.

I'm surprised Marlin (or Remington) hasn't exploited that issue, and simply scaled the basic Marlin action up maybe 15% in size, to see what could be accomplished.

[pricedo]

Keep in mind, that hole is directly below the chamber. How many remember the pictures of the Marlin 1895 that blew out in that exact same place.

That's a very good point!

I've always wondered what could be done if someone took the basic Marlin design, and simply scaled things 'up' a bit so the receiver was a bit wider, and perhaps altered the geometry of the lever/lifter enough that the magazine-barrel axis could be just a bit farther apart, what could be accomplished with regards to the larger-caliber and higher-pressure rounds like the .500 S&W. It seems like even the .45-70 is a bit of a 'stretch' for the Marlin receiver - one reason I'd pick the .444 Marlin vs. the .45-70 if I had to go with one lever-gun for long-range/high-power needs. More room around the cartridge in that relatively slim receiver.

I'm surprised Marlin (or Remington) hasn't exploited that issue, and simply scaled the basic Marlin action up maybe 15% in size, to see what could be accomplished.

One of the big selling points of the Rossi 92/454 is the 4.8-5 pound OAW.
I think Rossi had the right idea with the .480 Ruger round that has a lower SAAMI max pressure (48,000 psi) than the .454 Casull (65,000 psi) & the guns would probably hold together much better.
I think the .480 Ruger is at the plateau power level that can be handled reliably by a light weight lever action.
When you start beefing up the Marlin 1895 to accommodate the .454 & 500 rounds you're adding considerable weight & the
prospective buyer might as well buy a 444, 45-70, or a 450 which are already-proven incumbents in the lever action heavy weight domain.

[AJMD429]

I think Rossi had the right idea with the .480 Ruger round that has a lower SAAMI max pressure (48,000 psi) than the .454 Casull (65,000 psi) & the guns would hold probably together much better.

I will always wish that Ruger had gone ahead and made their model 96 in .480 Ruger, to go along with their revolvers. That would have made for a sweet combo...

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

The problem with the marlin isn't that it's not beefy enough. The primary issue is the angle of engagement of the locking bolt and the breech bolt. With its single locking bolt if the angle was more perpendicular it would contain more pressure but the action tends to freeze up. So, in order to get the action to open the locking bolt is laid back at a fairly sever angle. The problem now is at higher pressure the action tries to come open on it own. If you have ever had a levergun lever slap you fingers shooting heavy loads that tells you are right on the edge.
The reason the 92 will handle the higher pressures is twofold. The angle isn’t near as sever and the twin locking bolts turned parallel to the breech bolt distribute the load better.

[pricedo]

I think Rossi had the right idea with the .480 Ruger round that has a lower SAAMI max pressure (48,000 psi) than the .454 Casull (65,000 psi) & the guns would hold probably together much better.

I will always wish that Ruger had gone ahead and made their model 96 in .480 Ruger, to go along with their revolvers. That would have made for a sweet combo...

I own a Ruger 96/44 & it's a great running mate for my S&W Model 29 in .44 Mag.
The reason I bought the Rossi 92/454 was as a running mate for my Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull.
I love my Rossi 92/454 & I'm sure it will continue to serve me well for years as long as I keep my loads under 55,000 psi.
Sadly I'll have to restrict the maximum 454 loads solely to the handgun...........sometimes truth is stranger than fiction.
I own a Rossi 92/44 as well as a Rossi 92/357 & they are dependable & laser accurate........... more accurate than my Browning BLR/308 & Ruger 96/44 lever actions.

[RVM45]

[quote="rbertalotto"]Thanks for the link............a great read!

I have a Marlin 1894CB in 45LC. I load a very stout hunting load for that gun, that many gun scribes assure the Marlin 94 action will easily digest. BUT.....it bothers me to shoot such a hot load in that gun.

Due to a bad motorcycle accident a couple years ago I broke my right wrist. I now have one of two "transplant" wrist in the country. Lots of metal hardware in there also. This precludes me from shooting full house loads in the Freedom Arms Casull, even after I installed a muzzle brake on it.

You do still have a Functioning Left Hand? So what's the problem?

.....RVM45

[rbertalotto]

Through a medical miracle and some very advanced experimental surgery, the right hand works about 99%...................I just want to keep it that way!....

[RVM45]

I was teasing you a bit--But seriously--Are you saying that learning to shoot your Extra-Heavy Recoiling Handguns Left-Handed; would somehow cause your Fragile Right Hand to Deteriorate?

Years ago, I ran my Right Index Finger through a pulley. Hurt pretty good. AlmosT avulsed a big part of the end.

It finally healed up. In the meantime, my Finger was bandaged way too thickly to fit into the Trigger Guard of my 1911A1.

It was like: No problem. The Pistol had an Ambidextrous Safety. I always shot at least a few rounds left-handed; and did just as many "Draw and Fire" Dry-Fire drills left handed as I did Right Handed.

And back then I used the Mexican carry, so holsters weren't a real issue.

I simply turned my .45 around, and fully intended to use it Lefty, should the need arise.

.....RVM