Pistol calibre to 300/400 yds

[rm.unsworth]

Hi Guys

Need some advice. Shot a 400 yd shoot over the weekend with a .357 winchester using a receiver sight. Results were poor therefore need some suggestions based on the following.

Must be pistol calibre rifle, lever action or single shot.
Lead bullets only
Steel sights only
Shot prone of crossed sticks

Suggestions on rifle, calbre, load and sights appreciated

Based in the UK so may not be able scource all suggestions

Thanks in advance
Derek

[Griff]

.44-40 Uberti 1873 Sporting rifle. 2nd choice (1st for me), same gun, .45Colt.

Pick calm days!

[BigSky56]

Browning 1885 in 45 colt put on the sights you want loaded up with a 300 gr bullet it will equal a 45-90. danny
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Browni ... =100139341

[Old Ironsights]

Browning 1885 in 45 colt put on the sights you want loaded up with a 300 gr bullet it will equal a 45-90. danny
http://www.gunsinternational.com/Browni ... =100139341

There you go.

I did a shoot with .358 @ 300 and while I could hit the torso/target, the holdover was... well... extreme. Even with 190gr (bullet, check & lube) bullets at just under 1800fps.

I shudder to think how I'd lob one in @ 400m. That's why I bought a .308.

[tman]

If you got on paper at all, you did well. If you did, practice more, Good luck.

[Blaine]

Sounds like you could use a Marbles Tang sight.....Lot's of elevation in that one....

[AJMD429]

COSteve and Wind may have some advice to post here if they see this thread.

You could try searching for 'long-range' or similar words, and those forum member names, using the 'search' function...

[rangerider7]

I had a Uberti 1873 45 colt rifle. It was very accurate but the cases showed black blow-back on the brass. I decided a few years ago to sell or trade all my modern repos and just shoot the originals. I understand the 45 colt is not a necked cartridge thus you have the blow-back problem. My favorite rifle or carbine cartridges are the 44-40 and the 38-40 but they are not for the distance you said in your thread. Just my two cents.

[w30wcf]

Derek,
Sounds like fun! One of my favorite things to do is to shoot pistol cartridge leverguns at longer distances.
I have had the opportunity to fire the 357, 44-40 and 45 colt at 300 meters and with the proper loads they all did pretty well.

SInce you have a 357, it should work just fine. Since it is cast bullets only, I would suggest the 180 gr. RCBS Silhouette bullet over 15 grs of Lil Gun, 296 or H110. A 158 gr. plain based bullet over 12/2400 has worked pretty well also but the 180 gr bullet has the advantage especially in windy conditions.

w30wcf

[El Chivo]

the other day I was kicking up dust around the 400 yard target with my .357 and 35 Rem lead loads. Both were probably around 1400 fps.

Both required the tang sight up full AND using the bottom of the globe instead of the crosshairs in the center of the globe.

To do it with a receiver sight would not really be possible unless you can rig up some sort of extension.

Sounds like fun, might be the time to invest in the Robert Duvall ladder sight.

[w30wcf]

Thinking back several years there was a fellow with a 357 magnum '94 Winchester with a mid range tang sight shooting at the 500 meter (547 yards) steel ram (13" high x 32" wide) at Ridgway and hitting it quite regularly! He was using a 200 gr gas checked bullet over 11 grs of 2400.

As I recall, back in the late 1930's after the 357 magnum was introduced, testing was done to see how far away it was capable of hitting a man sized target. The revolver was equiped with a peep back sight and testing determined that at 600 yards a man silhouette could be hit with good regularity.

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

Hi Guys

Need some advice. Shot a 400 yd shoot over the weekend with a .357 winchester using a receiver sight. Results were poor therefore need some suggestions based on the following.

Must be pistol calibre rifle, lever action or single shot.
Lead bullets only
Steel sights only
Shot prone of crossed sticks

Suggestions on rifle, calbre, load and sights appreciated

Based in the UK so may not be able scource all suggestions

Thanks in advance
Derek

You'll need to equip your rifle with a good quality windguage vernier tang sight, or better yet to take full advantage of the wind shifts a soule sight. Midrange height at the minimum.
Then if the match allows for single loaded a 200 gr bullet seated out as far as the chamber will allow, and running as much velocity as possible.
If you decide to change cartridges, the 44-40 was billed as accurate to 300 yds and beyond by winchester, and was used to a limited extent on the Creedmoor range in the 1870's and 80's.
Also like Bigsky's recommendation of an 85 in 45 colt running 300 gr+ bullets.

[COSteve]

Deleted

[Don McDowell]

One thing to be mindful of in longrange shooting is hyper fast at the muzzle, will not necessarily be your friend when the bullet comes back down to transonic velocity. If the bullet starts out well above the transonic range and does not get back to that velocity before target impact then the high velocity is great. However if that bullet will fall below the transonic speed at target impact then hyper velocity at the muzzle will be a huge detrement. Also the twist rate of the barrel needs to be given good consideration as to slow of a twist combined with a heavy bullet, will make bullet stability down range a real factor.
At the speeds that most "pistol" cartridges are able to achieve, the old standard roundnose bullets will most likely show up to be better at extended ranges than most other bullet shapes.

[Ben_Rumson]

Pedersoli offers some of their Rolling Blocks in pistol calibers... .357 44-40, 45 Colt...

http://www.davide-pedersoli.com/tipolog ... block.html

[COSteve]

One thing to be mindful of in longrange shooting is hyper fast at the muzzle, will not necessarily be your friend when the bullet comes back down to transonic velocity. If the bullet starts out well above the transonic range and does not get back to that velocity before target impact then the high velocity is great. However if that bullet will fall below the transonic speed at target impact then hyper velocity at the muzzle will be a huge detrement. Also the twist rate of the barrel needs to be given good consideration as to slow of a twist combined with a heavy bullet, will make bullet stability down range a real factor.
At the speeds that most "pistol" cartridges are able to achieve, the old standard roundnose bullets will most likely show up to be better at extended ranges than most other bullet shapes.

While all this is true, I believe that slowing down through the transonic region degrades the high BC, highly accurate, boat tail, spitzer shaped rifle bullets considerably more than say, the lower BC, lower accuracy, rounded nose, flat bottomed pistol calibers that are the subject here. In addition, hyper fast, is a relative term here too because a 'hot' 220 grn 357mag round would likely be traveling somewhere in the 1500fps - 1600fs range at the muzzle. While above supersonic, it's not anywhere like a 3000fps round slowing to 900fps.

[Don McDowell]

Bullet shape plays a bit of a role in longrange stability, but isn't the end word. In the longrange things done with bpcr's, the tradtional 500 gr government bullet will shoot just as well as a more aerodynamic design all the way to and beyond the 1000 yd mark, the major noticeable difference is the sleeker shapes may take a few minutes less elevation to make the long distance, which does help keep a good cheek weld adding to better groups.
The roundnose bullet will fair much better at long distance than bullets with large meplats or flat noses especially when coming down thru the transonic range.
If a person really wanted to run up against the "gamer" end of the pistol cartridge longrange stuff, he'ld have a tradition creedmoor design paper patched bullet bullet mould made.

[AJMD429]

If a person really wanted to run up against the "gamer" end of the pistol cartridge longrange stuff, he'ld have a tradition creedmoor design paper patched bullet bullet mould made.

I know it's a dumb question (I know nothing about paper-patched bullet shooting), but why is that true? What are the advantages, and why?

(I think you or someone else posted some links a ways back on 'paper patch shooting for beginners', but my own disorganization, and so much other stuff constantly to catch up on, has prevented me from learning more about that... )

[Don McDowell]

When you shoot a true paper patched bullet ( not the abomination of rolling a grease groove bullet in paper, teflon tape and other such bs as oft seen on the Inet) the sides of the bullet are completely smooth, save for the rifling marks, so you have less drag than a grooved bullet due to the grease grooves.
I was really amazed to find out that a 500 gr patched bullet takes about 15 minutes less elevation at 450 yds than a 530 gr grooved bullet at approximately the same velocity from the same rifle.And a patched bullet will take about half the windage in full value crosswinds as a grooved bullet..
If I were going to spend more time than I already do in longrange levergun shooting I'ld be working with one of the custom mould makers to get just the right bullet mould built.

[Griff]

Having ACTUALLY shot my Uberti 1873 in 45 Colt out to those ranges I can attest that Mr McDowell is spot on. And rather successfully, without but a little braggin'... We USED to shoot side matches at those distances and called it LONG RANGE. IIRC, I didn't need a tang sight at 300 yards, but I was in the top notch on my barrel sight with my 1873 rifle... and holdin' on the top of the bull or a tad above... but 400 was all about Kentucky windage for me... I didn't have enough rear sight. A std., factory load for either the 45Colt or 44WCF will give adequate accuracy if the shooter or spotter can dope the wind. the .357s didn't do so well... a 180grain bullets don't buck the wind like a nice fat, 250 or 260 grainer will do. I can reach out to 300 yards and hit my 2'x3' runnin' buffalo target with my Henry in .45Colt. And, I just use my std. CAS load of a 225grain truncated cone (RCBS 45-225-CAV) and 6.5 grains of RedDot. It'll do even better with a full case of 3F behind the same bullet!

This ain't like high-power shootin'... 1st, you can't get the bullets to go FAST enough to have a semblence of a high-power trajectory. 2nd, fat, low BC bullets at slow speeds do NOT act like slim, trim & fast projectiles. Think of the successful loads for .45-70 & other BP era cartridges at 900 to 1000 yards. Heavy, long for caliber and SLOW. It's counter-intuitive, but it does work.

Accuracy for these calibers at those distances is ALL about dopin' the wind... ballistics will only do SO much... then it's all up the shooter and his spotter, if he's lucky enough to get to use one.

[Don McDowell]

Griff just a short reminder. Alliance Ne. is May 6,7,8. Levergun and 22 on the 6, longrange on 7 and buffalo on 8.
Big Hill, Baker Mt, levergun, 22 and handgun on June 11,Buffalo on June 12. 22 handgun match on the evening of the 10th..
And of course the Quigley on fathers day weekend...
Loadem up there shooter 93, lets ring some steel

[Griff]

Our annual cowboy match is the 29th of Apr thru May 1, can't really afford that time off. Gotta replace funds I agreed to buy!

[COSteve]

Griff, I don't doubt what you say about the 45s but I've got a bunch of experience with Zero Jacketed SP 158gr 357 bullets (BC of .177) at 300yds and a 2'x3' steel plate is a cinch to hit. I paint a 10" red circle in the middle of a white 2' dia. plate and have at it. It's not that hard to have the strikes hit almost all within the red circle. So, all things being equal, based upon a higher BC, the heavier jacketed 180, 200, and 220 grn 357 bullets should do better.

As I don't shoot plain lead bullets myself, I don't know what the difference would be with them but I think that a key is that I'm using a jacketed bullet rather than one with lube groves in it. The smoother sides of the jacketed bullet generate much less turbulence than those of the lead bullets with lube rings.

[Don McDowell]

Griff, get the smoke to rollin out of them stacks and lets get some money in here... We'll see ya 10 miles north of Baker on hiway 7 in June.

[Griff]

Griff, I don't doubt what you say about the 45s but I've got a bunch of experience with Zero Jacketed SP 158gr 357 bullets (BC of .177) at 300yds and a 2'x3' steel plate is a cinch to hit. I paint a 10" red circle in the middle of a white 2' dia. plate and have at it. It's not that hard to have the strikes hit almost all within the red circle. So, all things being equal, based upon a higher BC, the heavier jacketed 180, 200, and 220 grn 357 bullets should do better.

As I don't shoot plain lead bullets myself, I don't know what the difference would be with them but I think that a key is that I'm using a jacketed bullet rather than one with lube groves in it. The smoother sides of the jacketed bullet generate much less turbulence than those of the lead bullets with lube rings.

Aye, Steve, it's the fact that you just can't really get the lead bullets up at the velocities you can get with the jacketed ammo. You can cast really hard to push them above 1500, but then, as you say, that turbulence as they become subsonic really messes 'em up. And even then, without the extra something that BP gives, you end up with leading issues. I have the same issue with my .40-90SBN and grease groove bullets... the rifle and round are really an "Express" caliber, shoots light for charge weight bullets, and generates some great velocities, but... becomes rather erratic beyond 500 meters. I don't temp those distances with my .45 Colt... but 300 is nuttin'! I just hafta use more rear sight than you! They just get lobbed out the barrel around 1150fps!

Don,

When the difference is $3.76/mi comin' up here to the east coast, and can get over $2.50 on the return trip... vs. goin to NE, for $2.25 is ok, but... comin' home... let's see, sugar pays around $1.45, salt pays $1.80, but I gotta go to KS to get it... or head to CO where it's potatoes or beer @ $1.33... oh wait, those all weigh over 44,000 lbs... and I can kiss my fuel mileage goodbye! I hauled 23K up, and haulin' 21K back! Over 7mpg, vs 5.5... and over the course of a year... that's $ks I'm payin' the oil companies... to have black smoke roll out the stack!

I'm plannin' one trip over the summer, wanna hit the Billy Dixon range and will be in the p/u, pulling the flatbed with campin' equip... and hope to make a swing by Raton and maybe up to your neck of the woods... sightseein' ya know!

It's late, I'm hungry, and got a full day tomorrow to get down to Atlanta with this load of "stuff"! I rarely look at what I'm haulin'; the weight, whether it's hazmat, yea, but what it actually is; as I say, "HK" (who cares)!

[Don McDowell]

Griff let me know when/if you can get into this part of the country on your sight seeing trip. If you're coming thru in early August , Harlan is having his Sagebrush match at Alliance the weekend of the 7th, and if Jimbo stays with what he was talking about last year his Wy Territory longrange championship in Rawlins will be the weekend of the 13th.
They've got the bpcr part of Raton move up so danged early, I won't be able to make it account of haying.

[Wind]

Hey there rm.unsworth -- There was a whole bunch of information. My opinion is if you want to shoot things a long ways away, a good rear sight is in order. For the 300 to 400 yards ranges a Marbles tang sight is just the ticket. The Standard version and the Improved version both come with windage adjustments. This is very helpful in zero-ing your sights. I prefer a narrow post front sight and will happily file it down until I achieve a zero with the tang sight having one or two “clicks” in it at 50 yards. The standard sight comes with about 92 “clicks” for elevation. They vary a little sight to sight. The Improved Model offers interchangeable posts to accommodate more elevation and thus longer range. If your lever gun doesn’t have a serial number or tang mounted safety on the upper rifle tang, you should be able to find one that fits with just the addition of another mounting screw hole drilled and tapped. There are models that will work around some of the above hindrances as well.

At these ranges, almost any factory ammunition available to you, will do the job. It becomes just a matter of shooting and dialing in your sight. Larger pistol calibers may offer some advantages in windy conditions, but we shoot .22’s to 400 yards here all the time. Good luck and I hope this helps some. Be careful, it’s addictive…


Here is the view off the sofa of the front yard. I can actually shoot the 300 yard dingers off the toilet…

[Wind]

Jim B. was visiting last fall and we were shooting our 39a’s at 300 yards. Here is a good group that Jim shot…

[Wind]

Here are five hits on the 300 yard dinger with the 32-20 Cowboy Carbine. It is composed of two pieces of 6” well pipe, 16” long…

[Wind]

Barrel length will help with improving sight radius, but 20” will work fine at 400 yards. Here is my 32-20 Cowboy Carbine and the 400 yard dinger. This is a sighting in series where the first shot connected on the bottom of the dinger. Elevated the sight and walked the shots up the dinger until two went over the top. Then came back down a couple clicks. This sight just happened to have 100 clicks in it. The most I have ever seen in a Marbles Standard sight.

180 grain bullets work well out of my 1873 rifle as well. It is one of two rifles I own without a tang sight and requires some degree of “holdover”. Sorry no pictures.

[Wind]

Here is a typical “cheat sheet” I will set up so as to remember sight settings on various rifles…

[Wind]

Then get yourself a set of Okanogan Shooting Sticks (http://www.purdygear.com) and you’ll be all set to go. Hope this helps. Best regards. Wind

[El Chivo]

a longer barrel is good for sight radius and accuracy, but with pistol calibers the shorter barrels can give better velocity (the general wisdom is there's no powder burn advantage and there is less friction).

Another consideration for a shorter barrel is, each click on your tang or receiver sight counts for more elevation. So you should get more distance for a given length of sight extension.

[COSteve]

a longer barrel is good for sight radius and accuracy, but with pistol calibers the shorter barrels can give better velocity (the general wisdom is there's no powder burn advantage and there is less friction).

While that's true with 38spl ammo, my chrono begs to differ when one moves up to 357mag loads. My 20" Rossi carbine shoots my 158grn 38spl+p loads about 60fps faster than the same ammo in my 24" Rossi rifle, however, when I chrono my 158grn, H-110 loaded 357mag ammo, the rifle chrono's faster than the carbine. It's the weight of the bullet, size of the charge, and the burn rate of the the powder that dictates the optimum barrel length for a given load.

[jjames]

Hmmm my BFR is chambered in 45-70 so I guess that makes it a pistol caliber

[w30wcf]

... Aye, Steve, it's the fact that you just can't really get the lead bullets up at the velocities you can get with the jacketed ammo. You can cast really hard to push them above 1500, but then, as you say, that turbulence as they become subsonic really messes 'em up......

Griff,
Hmmmm.....I have never had that experience. I have pushed lead alloy bullets up to 2,400 f.p.s. at long distances and never had any signs of inaccuracy after they became subsonic. Of course they were flat nosed and round nosed bullets which are more evenly balanced which makes a big difference. Pointed bullets do go a bit wild after going subsonic.

I have also fired round nosed 30 caliber jacketed bullets against the same weight round nosed lead alloy multiple grease grooved bullets at the same velocity and did not see any difference between them.....well actually the lead alloy bullets shot better!

WIND,
Nice Pics! Nice shooting with your 32-20 and the .22! Thank you for sharing your experiences.

Speaking of the .22LR at extended distances, a friend has a very accurate Kimber .22 with a high power leupold scope mounted. Shooting match ammunition at the 300 meter steel javelina swinger several years ago on a very calm day, he had a 5 shot group that was barely over 1 minute of angle(!).

w30wcf