Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
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- KirkD
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Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Over the last couple of years, I developed a hankerin’ for an original Winchester Model 1886 with a full octagon barrel, crescent butt, full mag, and in 45-70 caliber. I put the word out and within a few weeks I was talking with a fellow who had one for sale. We arranged to meet in a nearby town and after a short round of negotiations, the old classic was mine. It had been received in the Winchester warehouse on July 1st, 1890 and shipped August 4th, 1890. It is completely original and has never been messed with ..... no refinished stocks, no re-blued metal, no extra holes and no initials carved in the wood. It was as honest as the day is long.
A couple months ago, I came across an old stash of 405 grain cast bullets that had gas checks on them. I pretty much always use plain base bullets, so I wanted to see how they would do against some plain base, 405 grain bullets I have. I ended up with three different loads to try, one with the gas check bullets and two with the plain base bullets. Here is the report ....
The rifle: here’s a photo ....
Sights: original iron sights.
Set-up: I rested the rifle on my shooting bag, which was sitting on a short piece of 2 x 12 to bring it to the right height. This is my regular set-up when I want to test how accurate one of my old Winchesters is. Here is a photo of the old ’86 on my shooting set-up ...
Load #1: 405 grain gas checked bullet over 26 grains of 5744 for 1,373 fps
I set up a couple targets at 100 yards, walked back to the bench and started shooting. There was only one other fellow at the range, shooting at a target at 50 yards with a scope. I fired three shots at each target and sometime during that first round, the fellow stopped shooting and was watching the targets through his spotting scope. When I finished, he was pretty excited and said I had some real good groups. He was amazed at how well these old open iron sights work. I went down to change my targets and have to admit that I was fairly pleased as well with the performance of this old rifle. This load consistently puts three shots into about 1” or slightly less at 100 yards with open iron sights. I’m sure I could do better if I had a scope, but I won’t be putting no scope on this old ’86 for sure. If you ever hear tell that I’m about to put a scope on it, take me out behind the barn and give me a good whuppin’. Here’s a shot of one of the targets ....
Load #2: 22 grains of 2400 under a plain base 405 grain bullet for 1,351 fps.
This is my standard load. I was expecting it to be a little less accurate, simply because it was a plain base bullet with no gas check. I shot three targets. The first two groups were closer to 2 & ¼” at 100 yards, but my last target was a little better ..... three shots into 15/16” at 100 yards. Here’s a photo of that target .....
Load #3: 26 grains of 5744 under a plain base 405 grain bullet for 1,370 fps.
I was least optimistic about this load, because of the lower pressure spike that would be generated by 5744, which might not bump the bullet up as well to seal off the bore. Sure enough, both groups were around 2 & 5/16” at 100 yards. Here’s a shot of one of the targets with this load ....
I need to tweak the sights a bit, mostly in elevation and a wee bit in windage, then I’m ready to start practicing free-standing, offhand shooting with this old Winchester.
A couple months ago, I came across an old stash of 405 grain cast bullets that had gas checks on them. I pretty much always use plain base bullets, so I wanted to see how they would do against some plain base, 405 grain bullets I have. I ended up with three different loads to try, one with the gas check bullets and two with the plain base bullets. Here is the report ....
The rifle: here’s a photo ....
Sights: original iron sights.
Set-up: I rested the rifle on my shooting bag, which was sitting on a short piece of 2 x 12 to bring it to the right height. This is my regular set-up when I want to test how accurate one of my old Winchesters is. Here is a photo of the old ’86 on my shooting set-up ...
Load #1: 405 grain gas checked bullet over 26 grains of 5744 for 1,373 fps
I set up a couple targets at 100 yards, walked back to the bench and started shooting. There was only one other fellow at the range, shooting at a target at 50 yards with a scope. I fired three shots at each target and sometime during that first round, the fellow stopped shooting and was watching the targets through his spotting scope. When I finished, he was pretty excited and said I had some real good groups. He was amazed at how well these old open iron sights work. I went down to change my targets and have to admit that I was fairly pleased as well with the performance of this old rifle. This load consistently puts three shots into about 1” or slightly less at 100 yards with open iron sights. I’m sure I could do better if I had a scope, but I won’t be putting no scope on this old ’86 for sure. If you ever hear tell that I’m about to put a scope on it, take me out behind the barn and give me a good whuppin’. Here’s a shot of one of the targets ....
Load #2: 22 grains of 2400 under a plain base 405 grain bullet for 1,351 fps.
This is my standard load. I was expecting it to be a little less accurate, simply because it was a plain base bullet with no gas check. I shot three targets. The first two groups were closer to 2 & ¼” at 100 yards, but my last target was a little better ..... three shots into 15/16” at 100 yards. Here’s a photo of that target .....
Load #3: 26 grains of 5744 under a plain base 405 grain bullet for 1,370 fps.
I was least optimistic about this load, because of the lower pressure spike that would be generated by 5744, which might not bump the bullet up as well to seal off the bore. Sure enough, both groups were around 2 & 5/16” at 100 yards. Here’s a shot of one of the targets with this load ....
I need to tweak the sights a bit, mostly in elevation and a wee bit in windage, then I’m ready to start practicing free-standing, offhand shooting with this old Winchester.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Dang nice.
Because I Can, and Have
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God Bless America.
Disclaimer, not responsible for anyone copying or building anything i make.
Always consult an expert first.
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USAF-72-76
God Bless America.
Disclaimer, not responsible for anyone copying or building anything i make.
Always consult an expert first.
- Paladin
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Very impressive both the rifle and the photos. Thanks for sharing.
It is not the critic who counts
- kimwcook
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Kirk, you make me sick with myself. It seems I can't get anything done with my irons. You've got a really nice '86 there. Hopefully, when I get around to loading up some rounds for mine it'll come half as close to yours. Beautiful rifle. Thanks for the report.
Old Law Dawg
- 2ndovc
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
That's a trophy '86 for sure!
My Dad has one that looks very similar and the same vintage. Super shooters!
jb
My Dad has one that looks very similar and the same vintage. Super shooters!
jb
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
I'm impressed Kirk...looks like that old rifle has a whole bunch of big game left in it. You're shooting ain't bad either. The holy grail...one fine old Winchester...
LB
LB
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Kirk,
Wow, what find, original, accurate, & beautiful. Some have all the luck.
I recently sold my Japchester '86 and have remorse.
Wow, what find, original, accurate, & beautiful. Some have all the luck.
I recently sold my Japchester '86 and have remorse.
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Kirk, Simply a beautiful rifle. I think the 1886's are the prettiest of all levers. Very nice shooting. As always, a great photo journal and superb shooting. Blessings.
Mike Johnson,
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
"Only those who will risk going too far, can possibly find out how far one can go." T.S. Eliot
- Aussie Chris
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
That is a very nice '86 Kirk! And the thing shoots better than most people at the range I see with scopes hahah!!
That is one of the best shooting leverguns I have ever seen to be honest and you are a great shot.
Ive always thought you were a man of good tastes, confirmed with your Swarovski binoculars
Chris
That is one of the best shooting leverguns I have ever seen to be honest and you are a great shot.
Ive always thought you were a man of good tastes, confirmed with your Swarovski binoculars
Chris
A man can never have too many WINCHESTERS...
- KirkD
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
I got those Swarovski binos (10x42 HD) a couple months ago and am extremely happy with them. I had to sell a vintage Winchester to scrape enough $$ together to buy them, but they turned out to be one of those purchases in life that a fellow just keeps being thrilled with. They are razor sharp and the FL element makes them brighter than the Steiners I looked at or the Leica. All three were razor sharp but these HD's were noticeably brighter. It makes up for having to sell a classic Winchester to get them.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
- Old Savage
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Wow Kirk, hit gold on this one. Not too many old rifles I would really be interested in but this one is a dandy. A friend has a similar one. Very nice shooting and that 2400 load is very close to the most accurate in the Marlin 1895SS I had with the micro groove. I think I will try it in my present one. Nice shooting!
Last edited by Old Savage on Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
- Ysabel Kid
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Drool, drool, drool...
Great report Kirk! I'd be tickled with any of those results! Looks like you picked up another winner for sure!
Great report Kirk! I'd be tickled with any of those results! Looks like you picked up another winner for sure!
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Nice!!!
Dave B
Dave B
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Excellent report and photos as usual, congratulations Kirk.
Whatever you do always give 100%........... unless you are donating blood.
- Borregos
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Thanks for sharing that Kirk, good shooting with irons
Pete
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Outstanding all the way around...
great looking gun, a classic for sure, Winchesters finest..IMO
and...very nice groups...fairly pleased indeed! ...and great photos too!
Ya cant beat that first group by very much....
and anyone of the three will bring the venison home...
I must get an 86 one of these days....92 needs a big brother...
and its the only big bore gun that interests me...
in your exact configuration...I might add...
We have some pretty big hogs down here and I would
love to bring the bacon home with one of those....
These 86s are far and few between here in Florida....
and the ones you do find, are fairly expensive...
just a beautiful gun....great job and post!
great looking gun, a classic for sure, Winchesters finest..IMO
and...very nice groups...fairly pleased indeed! ...and great photos too!
Ya cant beat that first group by very much....
and anyone of the three will bring the venison home...
I must get an 86 one of these days....92 needs a big brother...
and its the only big bore gun that interests me...
in your exact configuration...I might add...
We have some pretty big hogs down here and I would
love to bring the bacon home with one of those....
These 86s are far and few between here in Florida....
and the ones you do find, are fairly expensive...
just a beautiful gun....great job and post!
LETS GO SHOOT'N BOYS
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Very nice Kirk,but it sure won't carry like that EL would. .
- Rube Burrows
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Nice rifle and range report post.
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
beautiful rifle, and yes, great binoculars.
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Nice rifle - as good as they come and working perfectly over 100 years after it was made.
Professional Hunter
http://www.TARSPORTING.com
"Worldwide Hunting Adventures"
Professional Hunters Assoc of South Africa
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http://www.TARSPORTING.com
"Worldwide Hunting Adventures"
Professional Hunters Assoc of South Africa
SCI - Life Member
NRA - Life Member
NAHC - Trophy Life Member
DWWC - Member
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Kirk, your reports are simply the BEST. I can hardly see my worthless orange and green targets at 100 yds, let alone get results like that. Excellent shooting.
"Congressmen who willfully take actions during wartime that damage morale, and undermine the military are saboteurs and should be arrested, exiled or hanged"....President Abraham Lincoln
- KirkD
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Glad y'all enjoyed this report. I really enjoy shooting these old Winchesters.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Since when is it unusuall for Kirk to hit Gold! Congratulations on yet another fine find Kirk!
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Wonderful rifle and some very nice shooting! I just love your pictures! Thanks for the report.
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Always love range reports on the oldies!... Pretty rifle.. Great shooting!... It would be pretty hard for me not to run out & get some more bullets and gas checks, head back out to the range with that beauty to adjust the sights and try to center punch me a special cluster just for the sake of framing .
Kirk , with the 2400 load... Did you do anything to position the powder? Particularly between the sub 1" groups and the 2-1/4" groups?... Interesting too how the POI climbed from start to finish load to load...
Kirk , with the 2400 load... Did you do anything to position the powder? Particularly between the sub 1" groups and the 2-1/4" groups?... Interesting too how the POI climbed from start to finish load to load...
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
WIL TERRY
- KirkD
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Ben, all three 2400 loads were inserted into the chamber one round at a time, the same way, so I think powder position would have been fairly uniform. The only difference between the first two 2400 groups and the last one, that I can think of, is that the first two groups were shot near the beginning of the session, and the last, sub 1" 2400 group was the last group of the day and the barrel was getting pretty hot, because I had just shot the last gas-check load of the day (top photo) and went straight to the 2400 load without allowing any cooling. It may be that I was getting my sight picture with more consistency.
The first group of the day was one of the GC loads and it was just a tad under 1", but it was centered left to right but the lowest group of the day, just below the black (that group target is not shown). As the barrel warmed up, the groups drifted an inch to the left and higher. However, I'm not 100% sure this was due to the barrel warming up, because after the first two groups, the rest of them stayed right about 1" to the left. I suspect that I was getting a more consistent sight picture. The rear ladder sight has a very wide notch and I found it tricky to center the front sight in the notch. Interestingly, the last group of the day was the 2400 load shown in the second photo, and it was shot the fastest, with not much time to figure out whether I was centered or not. This suggests that I may shoot better if I just let the eye automatically do the centering, instead of trying to consciously center the front sight.
It is tempting to buy a bag of GC bullets from the local shooting supply, but I hate spending the $$ when I can cast them myself once I get a mould. So I'm exercising some self discipline and waiting till I get that mould. Once I can load up a bunch of GC bullets, then I will fine tune the sights so that the first three shots out of a cold barrel always go into that white bullseye. I've taken the original front sight out, which was shooting high, and installed a repro sight that I can file down to exactly the right height once I finalize my GC load.
The first group of the day was one of the GC loads and it was just a tad under 1", but it was centered left to right but the lowest group of the day, just below the black (that group target is not shown). As the barrel warmed up, the groups drifted an inch to the left and higher. However, I'm not 100% sure this was due to the barrel warming up, because after the first two groups, the rest of them stayed right about 1" to the left. I suspect that I was getting a more consistent sight picture. The rear ladder sight has a very wide notch and I found it tricky to center the front sight in the notch. Interestingly, the last group of the day was the 2400 load shown in the second photo, and it was shot the fastest, with not much time to figure out whether I was centered or not. This suggests that I may shoot better if I just let the eye automatically do the centering, instead of trying to consciously center the front sight.
It is tempting to buy a bag of GC bullets from the local shooting supply, but I hate spending the $$ when I can cast them myself once I get a mould. So I'm exercising some self discipline and waiting till I get that mould. Once I can load up a bunch of GC bullets, then I will fine tune the sights so that the first three shots out of a cold barrel always go into that white bullseye. I've taken the original front sight out, which was shooting high, and installed a repro sight that I can file down to exactly the right height once I finalize my GC load.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
-
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Ah yes, the fun
Kirk...Any GC'd 5744 home casts on your list? Were any GC’d 2400 loads tried?
For sure though, hold out and get the GC mold, money well spent ... Because prolly as soon as you get it and the gas checks, you’ll start printing tiny groups with 2400 & PBs, which would be the ultimate anyway! Better to have it and not.....
Kirk...Any GC'd 5744 home casts on your list? Were any GC’d 2400 loads tried?
For sure though, hold out and get the GC mold, money well spent ... Because prolly as soon as you get it and the gas checks, you’ll start printing tiny groups with 2400 & PBs, which would be the ultimate anyway! Better to have it and not.....
That may help alleviate eye strain too...Hopefully it’s not your vision fuzzing out slightly with the more prolonged aim...That’s what eventually happened to me...The Merit adjustable Iris shooting aid on my glasses really helped prolong a sharp sight picture so I had time to make a good trigger pull while the sights were where they need to be. Now, even with a Merit Iris I find it takes me a lot longer to shoot groups than it used to.the last group of the day was the 2400 load shown in the second photo, and it was shot the fastest, with not much time to figure out whether I was centered or not. This suggests that I may shoot better if I just let the eye automatically do the centering, instead of trying to consciously center the front sight.
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
WIL TERRY
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Great shooting Kirk,
That is one fine 86. Mine is in 45-90 and was made in 1916 so isn't even a hundred yet. Same configuration though and it shoots fairly well from a bore I thought would have to be relined. Nothing like an 86.
That is one fine 86. Mine is in 45-90 and was made in 1916 so isn't even a hundred yet. Same configuration though and it shoots fairly well from a bore I thought would have to be relined. Nothing like an 86.
M. M. Wright, Sheriff, Green county Arkansas (1860)
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
Currently living my eternal life.
NRA Life
SASS
ITSASS
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
That is a fine looking (and shooting) '86. There's just something about those octagon barrels! I have one like that on my wanted list, but it will be some time before I can even consider it. Silly question, but how do the crescent butts on these older rifles kick? Is there a significant increase in recoil or not?
- KirkD
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Ben, I didn't try any 2400 under the GC bullets. I didn't figure they needed to be bumped up since they had a GC on them. What I would like to do is try an even slower powder than 5744 under the GC bullets ...... maybe IMR 4198.
Bunyan, if I am shooting offhand, the butt is against my upper arm, which has plenty of movement to absorb the recoil. I don't even notice the recoil shooting offhand. Sitting down at a bench, leaning into the butt, it gets noticeable after a few rounds, so I stick a leather mitt between it and my T-shirt. Then I don't notice it.
Bunyan, if I am shooting offhand, the butt is against my upper arm, which has plenty of movement to absorb the recoil. I don't even notice the recoil shooting offhand. Sitting down at a bench, leaning into the butt, it gets noticeable after a few rounds, so I stick a leather mitt between it and my T-shirt. Then I don't notice it.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
As ever Kirk, quality
Nath.
Nath.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Kirk, as always wonderful rifles, fantastic pictures and a very interesting report.
Thanks!
Best
Stefan
Sweden
Thanks!
Best
Stefan
Sweden
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Good shooting Kirt and good job on finding a nice 86 , thanks for taking the time to post the pic's .
Dave Bateman .
If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words, matches cause fires and spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
If guns cause crime, then pencils cause misspelled words, matches cause fires and spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
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Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Dont know how or why, but never saw this post till today. Great pics and info as usual. Must be nice to have "iron sight eyes" when u get older. I am starting to lust over an original '86. Hard part is trying to figure out what to sell to afford one... Todd
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
Re: Range Report: 121 year-old Winchester '86
Really really nice shooting there Kirk. Amazing to me since I can't seem to shoot with open irons worth a hoot.
Swarovski really does make some great binos! I don't have a set (wish I did) but I used to sell 'em and they're simply fantastic.
Best,
Oly
Swarovski really does make some great binos! I don't have a set (wish I did) but I used to sell 'em and they're simply fantastic.
Best,
Oly
Cheers,
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright
Oly
I hope and pray someday the world will learn
That fires we don't put out will bigger burn
Johnny Wright