Win 94 question

[WCF3030]

My daughter was just given a newer 94 30-30 from her grandpa S# in the 5,500,000.

I'm certain that it has a light primer strike. I've used 3 different LRP and it has had a FTF with each, but I can take the FTF rounds and shoot them just fine in my H&R, Marlin and Savage 340.
I've only tried one bullet so far, 130gr Speer fp. Which has also shot tight groups in 4 seperate 30-30 rifles and an 03 sprinfield. But in this 94 I get 6in vertical strings at 30yds from a clean cold bore. I've several other recipes that I will try with powder and bullets, but so far I'm not hopeful.
I'm probably jumping ahead here before running other loads, but its raining out......

Heavier spring, barrel band issue

[Malamute]

Is it a rebounding hammer? They occasionally have lights strikes, and subsequent vertical stringing from poor ignition. You can tune the rebound, taking some metal off the rebound side of the hammer strut so it isnt fighting itself to hit the firing pin, or swap lower tangs for a non-rebound type. A heavier spring may help, but it may give a very heavy trigger pull also. You can try it and see.

Did someone lighten the mainspring or put a different mainspring in it? They may have done it to try to help the trigger pull or make the action feel smoother.

Flushing out the firing pin chanel may help if it's gummed up with old dried oil.

[earlmck]

My old old '94 will do that light-primer-strike thing to me if there is enough resistance to chambering that the lever isn't 100% closed, maybe like only 99.9%. So if those are reloads you are using, make sure you are sizing all the way 'cause you may have a minimum headspace rifle there. If you are using factory new brass, disregard my semi-informed input!

From a little primer testing I did a while back, Federals take the least "whack" to set off, Remingtons significantly the most.

[WCF3030]

Malamute,

Yes it is a rebounding hammer. I'll try flushing out the channel and working on the action.
This rifle was bought at an estate auction and by all appearances looks new. No signs of wear at all, even on the loading gate.

Sounds like a chronic issue with the 94's and rebounding hammers.

Thanks!!

[WCF3030]

My old old '94 will do that light-primer-strike thing to me if there is enough resistance to chambering that the lever isn't 100% closed, maybe like only 99.9%. So if those are reloads you are using, make sure you are sizing all the way 'cause you may have a minimum headspace rifle there. If you are using factory new brass, disregard my semi-informed input!

From a little primer testing I did a while back, Federals take the least "whack" to set off, Remingtons significantly the most.

I've some new brass I can work through it... give that a go next time around.

Thanks

[J Miller]

WCF3030,

Before getting crazy and doing all sorts of alterations do this:
Disassemble the action, clean the interior thoroughly. Remove the bolt, take the firing pin out of it and check for solidified lube, metal filings, burrs, debris. Smooth up anything that looks likes it's dragging on anything.
Take the lower tang apart. Smooth anything that contacts anything else.
ESPECIALLY the main spring strut and it's rebounding fingers. Check and smooth the trigger and all it's contact areas. Don't mess with the sear areas unless you really know what your doing.
Check the ends of the springs, they should be smoothly cut and each end coil should be closer to than those in the middle. The rebounders have a heavier mainspring to make up for the rebounding action.

Then try reassemble it and give it a try.

Joe

[Griff]

Malamute,
Yes it is a rebounding hammer. I'll try flushing out the channel.
This rifle was bought at an estate auction and by all appearances looks new. No signs of wear at all, even on the loading gate.
Sounds like a chronic issue with the 94's and rebounding hammers.
Thanks!!

I beleive that if you shorten the lower leg of the hammer strut so the upper leg holds more pressure on the hammer. If you can find a hammer strut from the 4.5 million range it WILL fit with no other changes... but, w/o the safety notch it ain't safe. You can put a sear, trigger & hammer from that same series in and the best of actions. Unless it's a tang safety model.

Parts needed (as listed by Numrich):

44..301730....... Hammer (Above Serial Number 4,580,000) ......................... $47.55 .... +
45..301750....... Hammer Spring Guide Rod (Above Serial Number 4,580,000) .. $ 5.10 .... SOLD OUT
52..302050....... Trigger ....................................................................... $24.95 .... +
53..302060....... Sear (Above Serial Number 4,580,000) .............................. $10.35 .... +

[El Chivo]

First take Joe's advice, get in there and clean, oil, and polish everything.

I had that issue with my recent 94 Ranger and a shadetree gunsmith did put in a heavier spring. That was a mistake; levering was very difficult. I ended up installing a new Winchester spring, rounding off the fork of the strut, polishing all possible contact points, polishing the hammer itself, clean, oil, etc. Works fine now.

[WCF3030]

I think you are missing your calling. You need to make a video Joe. I'd buy it.



Uuggg!!! This rifle had to be a gift from grandpa. He had a huge grin when he gave it to her and she prefers the looks and the weight/balance over the H&R, Savage 340 and my McPherson Marlin.
“Daddy this rifle is pretty and I can carry it and lift it to my shoulder without any trouble.”
I'll start on it tonight and if for some reason that did not work, I'll have a first rate experience/knowlege with the action and then move onto Griff's idea. It is not a tang safety.
Am I seeing one of the reasons why the 94 was discontinued?

Keep the help coming guys . Thanks!!

[Tycer]

Knock 3/16" off the lower mainspring strut. All of the above suggestions are great, but the hammer should rest on the transfer pin in the transfer bar. The mainspring should not have to overcome the bass ackwards pressure of those two lower struts. It's a broken fix for a nonexistent problem.

[Nath]

Firing pin gummed up! Classic on these, a couple of burst primers in the past and old oil, dust and such.

Some one else had the same problem not long back.

Joe has good advice.

I done all the rebounder mods in the past, made no difference what so ever!

Nath.

[Malamute]

Knock 3/16" off the lower mainspring strut. All of the above suggestions are great, but the hammer should rest on the transfer pin in the transfer bar. The mainspring should not have to overcome the bass ackwards pressure of those two lower struts. It's a broken fix for a nonexistent problem.

Transfer bar?

Do you mean the locking bolt?

Rugers and a few others have transfer bars, but I haven't seen any in Winchesters yet.

[.45colt]

Follow Joe's advise first. hopfully this will get it shooting. Joe can also provide lots of information about replacing the whole lower tang and hammer assembly. I would do this as it is going to be Her big remberance of Gramps and I would sure want it to work right. I wouldn't care if I had to buy a beater/rifle just to get the tang assembly that I needed. Good Luck.
PS: I hate the rebounding Hammers.

[Tycer]

Knock 3/16" off the lower mainspring strut. All of the above suggestions are great, but the hammer should rest on the transfer pin in the transfer bar. The mainspring should not have to overcome the bass ackwards pressure of those two lower struts. It's a broken fix for a nonexistent problem.

Transfer bar?

Do you mean the locking bolt?

Rugers and a few others have transfer bars, but I haven't seen any in Winchesters yet.

Yep, transfer pin on the locking bolt, thanks.

[Nath]

The rebounders do have a transfer bar, the first stage of trigger travel lowers it. IIRC.

N.

[Malamute]

Nath, what part are you thinking is a transfer bar? Transfer bars as used in Rugers, Charters, and a few others are a bar or plate that transfers the blow of the hammer to the firing pin, the hammer never touching the firing pin, the transfer bar transfers the blow, when it's lowered (at rest) out of the way, the hammer can't reach the firing pin. Winchesters (even pre-rebounding) have a trigger block that the lever pushes up to allow the trigger to move, the rebounders have a step on the hammer strut to bounce the hammer back away from the firing pin, but no transfer bar that I've seen. Normally you can see a tranfer bar, it shows up between the hammer and firing pin, and moves upward when the gun is cocked, and stays up when the trigger is pulled. If you hold the hammer back and pull the trigger, you can see the transfer bar move upwards slighty with the trigger pull.

[J Miller]

The curved thing some folks call a transfer bar is not a transfer bar. It never gets between the hammer and the firing pin.
What it is, is a hammer block that prevents the hammer from contacting the firing pin unless and until the trigger is pulled to the rear.

Here is two pics to show what I'm talking about:
A:
Lower Tang Assembled:

Win 94 AE Lower Tang Small.JPG

The hammer block is the curved part at the right end attached to the trigger.
Disassembled Lower Tang; bottom parts group:

Std and AE actions by Mark at Leverguns.JPG

In this view the hammer block is seen on the left side attached to the trigger.

B:

Reciever St Screw Locations.JPG

Look at the gun on the left in the pic. Follow the wire to the small horizontal ledge just to the rear of the locking bolt. Now look at the gun on the right. Notice how much narrower the ledge is.
This is the ledge the curved hammer block sits between to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin.

Hope this helps a bit.

Joe

[JBledsoe]

The rebounders do have a transfer bar, the first stage of trigger travel lowers it. IIRC.

N.

The rifle of interest was made in 1989 according to the serial number.

Nath is correct, It will have a transfer bar that works much like Ruger and others.

I agree with Joe, the first order of business is to clean the crud out of the rifle and polish any rough spots in the action. If that does not cure the FTF I can post pictures of the rebounding mechanism and indicate where to remove metal. I hope that helps.

JB

[Nath]

Sorry guy's my mistake I meant hammer block as Joe so clearly explained. I am a muppet

N

[JBledsoe]

.

Details, details, Joe is absolutely right, it works like a transfer bar but it does NOT transfer anything. However if it is removed the gun is unsafe because there is no half-cock safety. The solution would be to install an older hammer that has a half-cock notch.

[C. Cash]

A thought, before you invest in anything to remedy the problem. Eye ball your primers, close, in the light. Are they just below flush when seated in the case or are they more deep seated? I was having light strike issues with both rebounding and later with the non-rebounding hammer. After scratching my head and trying some remedies that didn't work, I noticed my primers were deep seated and well below flush. I let up on cranking down on them so hard with my hand primer and consistently tried to apply just the right pressure(a bit less), to seat them just below flush. Walla, no misfires after that. You probably already thought of this, but thought I would mention it just in case.

[Nath]

A thought, before you invest in anything to remedy the problem. Eye ball your primers, close, in the light. Are they just below flush when seated in the case or are they more deep seated? I was having light strike issues with both rebounding and later with the non-rebounding hammer. After scratching my head and trying some remedies that didn't work, I noticed my primers were deep seated and well below flush. I let up on cranking down on them so hard with my hand primer and consistently tried to apply just the right pressure(a bit less), to seat them just below flush. Walla, no misfires after that. You probably already thought of this, but thought I would mention it just in case.

Friend, that could also suggest plenty of poop in the bottom of the bolt and it is limiting the travel of the pin!!!!!

Best wishes.

Nath.

[WCF3030]

Hopefully 1st of next week I'll know if there is an improvement.

Ckecking out the Youtube videos for teardown. This is not a thing like my Marlin.

[C. Cash]

Thanks Nath. I'll check!

[Griff]

Hopefully 1st of next week I'll know if there is an improvement.
C(h)ecking out the Youtube videos for teardown. This is not a thing like my Marlin.

Send me an PM with your email addr and I'll send you a copy of my manual.

[WCF3030]

PM sent.
Thanks!!

Hopefully 1st of next week I'll know if there is an improvement.
C(h)ecking out the Youtube videos for teardown. This is not a thing like my Marlin.

Send me an PM with your email addr and I'll send you a copy of my manual.