Gunbroker.com question

[earlmck]

Due to circumstances beyond my self-control I have ended up with a bag of nice new brass of 303 Savage persuasion. So I either make somebody a good deal in some brass or I find a 303 Savage to shoot it in. Being a mildly addicted levergunner my inclination is to find the gun, so have been keeping an occasional eye on Gunbroker.

Spotted a candidate today; low opening price but has the "hidden reserve" thing. So I did my usual when faced with this "reserve" deal which is to toss a bid at it that I consider on the low side but at or above the opening price. And of course get the message "reserve not met". And I won't bid again because my assumption is this guy is trying to play games with me.

Am I being snitty about this "reserve" thing or do you other folks feel similar? And for you folks who have sold a fair number of guns at auction, does the "reserve" strategy buy you a better price eventually? I know it loses me as a bidder fairly quickly, but I don't know how others feel about it and am curious. I know the few guns I have sold I just put a starting price of what I could accept and not be unhappy and then let her rip. Maybe this isn't the way to get the max price but I have never failed to get one sold and only one time did I end up just getting my minimum.

[bdhold]

pm the seller on Gunbroker and see if he will tell you his reserve price - most will

one reason they use a reserve is for people who search prioritizing by low price.

[awp101]

Nope, I feel the same as you. I go to what I feel comfortable with and if that doesn't meet the reserve, then most likely the seller wants to keep it more than I want to buy it.

[jnyork]

The "reserve" thing, to me, is nothing more than a childish game and I dont like to be gamed. If I look at an item and it has a reserve, I just click off it and go on to something else. Why people use this instead of just putting in the same figure in the starting price is beyond me, except of course they like to play silly games.

[jdad]

The "reserve" thing, to me, is nothing more than a childish game and I dont like to be gamed. If I look at an item and it has a reserve, I just click off it and go on to something else. Why people use this instead of just putting in the same figure in the starting price is beyond me, except of course they like to play silly games.

Totally agree! If you can't put the minimum you want, then you are just "fishing". I just keep going.

[jhrosier]

There are people who list something with a ridiculously high reserve to see if anyone will seriously overpay. They will then relist the item for whatever is the maximum bid on the "feeler" auction. The auction sites encourage this foolishness by not charging for listings.

Jack

[madman4570]

Na,your not being snitty.
Don't let it freak you out.(just in your mind,if it's something you don't mind waiting and also maybe get it/maybe not get it that's fine.

You know people that do the Ebay thing a lot use a program on their computer that instantly rebids for you at the increments you choose up to the limit you choose(so that at the very end of bid you have the best chance as long as the bidding doesn't go over your maximum bid.It does this automatically while say your at work.(that one kinda ticked me off too)

What I do is I grab the Buy IT NOW ones (if I feel its truly a great deal) or----I just take all things into play decide what I truly feel is a bargain and wham(I make my best/final offer right then and there,no games)
If someone offers more(God Bless em cause it's one penny more than I would pay)

But,just for kicks you could also just play the game and make your best bid before auction ends.
But snitty-------------Nope! (your too nice a guy)

Hey,
If ya don't mind someone had one and wanted to pretty up the stock( refinished it)(has a 90% rifle bore) should be able to get this Model 99 (take down) for about $450 ??
They also have other ones? Talk to John
http://www.ktpguns.com/interior.php/pid/28/gid/168550

[Rube Burrows]

The "reserve" thing, to me, is nothing more than a childish game and I dont like to be gamed. If I look at an item and it has a reserve, I just click off it and go on to something else. Why people use this instead of just putting in the same figure in the starting price is beyond me, except of course they like to play silly games.

Totally agree! If you can't put the minimum you want, then you are just "fishing". I just keep going.

I disagree with this. Sometimes you can start a price low as a seller and then you will get two bidders who want to win and beat the other person bidding against them more than they actually want the item. They engage in a bidding war and will often times bid more than they originally wanted just for the thrill of winning. Starting lower than your reserve will mean more bidders.....more bidders means more chance to catch a couple people in the bidding war. Its a strategy and it works.

It may be a game in your eyes and I guess it sort of is......but the seller usually wants to get the most he can for any particular item.

[FWiedner]

I don't see what the gripe is.

Bid what you think the guy's junk is worth to you, and then move on.

If you don't like the 'game', don't play.

[pwl44m]

I Have seen Sellers put in Their description "Do not e-mail and ask for the reserve price because I will not reveal it". Like others say, put the starting bid at what You would take for it. I just won an auction but went $20 beyond what I had planned. Still a good buy- But then I have stopped early too. I have more Winchester parts now than I know what to do with-Gun Show.
Perry

[ollogger]

Earl check out ktpguns
there in Maine & they have a few 303 sav.
good price im thinking
0llogger

[buckeyeshooter]

I put my reserve as opening bid. But--- there re lots of folks who 'play the game' the other way. they will watch and not bid on 'my' price. but be interested to bid or buy if relisted lower. As I gnerally only list a single time--- it probably does not help them buy my goods much. If it does not sell at my price this year--- it will eventually. guns don't eat too much-- so my cost stays the same.

[Pisgah]

A reserve bothers me not at all. I always decide how much I am willing to pay, then bid once -- that's it. If I win, great; if not, oh well. I learned that was the only way for me to innoculate myself from "auction fever" years ago.

[Pete44ru]

A reserve bothers me not at all. I always decide how much I am willing to pay, then bid once -- that's it. If I win, great; if not, oh well. I learned that was the only way for me to innoculate myself from "auction fever" years ago.

+1 - I'm with you.

I pay no more attention to a hidden reserve that I do to the price tag in a gunshop/gunshow - a given is what it is, and each is only worth what each is to ME.

IMHO, those that throw in a lowball bid & stop due to the presence of a hidden reserve are doing themselves a diservice by letting their emotion come between them & what they want - for all they know, the reserve may only be another $25 away. It's just as bad as "auction fever", IMO.

IMO, sellers with a reserve aren't "gaming" anyone, or "playing games" - they're simply wanting to ensure they get at least "X" $$$ out of whatever they're auctioning, beit cost or cost+.

.

[smokenrust]

My observation on the reserve thing is that in the years of watching guns on gunbroker, I have seen only 2 times the sign that says "RESERVE has been Met" .
I get tired of when I do a search and see the same guns relisted month after month. It wastes my time filtering through for the real auction guns...So now I usually exclude all reserves.
My thought is if they run a reserve gun twice and it isn't sold, they should have to relist with a no reserve or take it off for a 7 day period.
I get a kick out of the low bid or penny start auctions, many of them will bring more money in the end (And some of them sell low too, but its a real auction) than the cultist reserve seller (Which most have inflated prices on their guns I believe).
There are a few auctions where the seller has a start bid of xxx and a sell it now for x25 and a 'reserve not met' since there are no bidders...but you know he wants x25 for his gun.
When your in a gun shop and look at the tags, you know what the gunshop owner wants and you may be able to dicker with him for a better price from there.
Anyways, each to his own thoughts or fantasies

[earlmck]

Thanks much for the responses, levergunners. I now feel like I better understand the reasons for using this "reserve". First is the gaming aspect where you want some bidding fever to help run the price up somewhat over what might be considered "market". And the second is that it allows you to post a low price so that someone searching that model by price will have your offering be close to the top. I had only considered the first reason. I don't search or arrange by price so hadn't thought of that.

I compiled some statistics out of our group of responses. Looks to me that of the 15 of us chiming in here we have:
--4 of us definitely biased against bidding on something with a hidden reserve
--2 of us who think it is a little silly but go ahead and bid just the same
--5 of us who aren't bothered at all by the hidden reserve
--4 of us giving advice (such as using sites that aren't auction sites) that don't reveal how they treat a reserve item

My main bias against items with the reserve comes from a "time" issue. I'm not a collector and not a frequenter of guns shows and don't have much of a feel for what an item is worth. So before I bid on something I have to do some research to see what it should be going for, in a ballpark sort of way. Now a lot of guns are advertised on the auction sites for quite a lot over this "ballpark sell price" and I can just pass right on by the listing. It's almost a cinch to expire with no bids and be relisted again and again. So then come the "reserve" items with a low start price. These have faked me out into investigating them too many times -- I look close at the pictures, read the description, look up gun values, email seller with questions, come up with my ballpark value for this gun I want, put in my max comfortable bid (knowing the site will use this to make incremental bids up to this value). And then get told that this "doesn't meet the reserve". So after feeling "had" a few times I no longer spend time worrying about figuring out a value on a reserve item. I just assume it is another of those where the seller is fishing for a sucker, may toss a low sort of offer to test the theory, and then abandon the item. With my new understanding of the "reserve" function I'll try to be a bit more willing to give them a try, but the "wasted time" aspect is still significant to me.

My guess is that the folks who are not bothered by the use of the "reserve" strategy are the same fellows who know very close what these things are worth and so don't have to do any research to figure out what is a fair price. You are the same ones who are able to answer the posts asking "what is this thing worth and did I get a good deal?" I'm seldom in that position.

Probably a statistician would tell me this "sample group" isn't likely to be representative of gun buyers as a whole but it looks to me like if you are advertising something for sale you have a good chance of alienating nearly 40% of your customer base by use of the "reserve". I think I'll continue my selling practice (not that I sell much!) of starting it at a price I'd not be unhappy to accept and then letting it go for whatever it gets to.

Thanks everybody, and isn't this little forum just full of knowledgeable folks?

[smokenrust]

Earlmck, "but the "wasted time" aspect is still significant to me." You hit that one right.
"where the seller is fishing for a sucker," Thats the way I feel about it too sometimes..
I like your way of thinking, "my selling practice of starting it at a price I'd not be unhappy to accept and then letting it go for whatever it gets to" Makes it so the ones wanting to buy are connecting with ones really wanting to sell...

While we're talking about reserves', Let go to the pictures... Hate single small photos or the many fuzzyies or the to dark or to bright of photos. Seems some sellers just don't understand that clear crisp pics help sell their items.
or the description of 3-10 words or something like "gun for sale,what you see is what you get" and a blurred photo is attached... or something similer to that. GRR And ask for better description or photos and don't hear from them... Almost like you insulted them for their lack of good decription or pics... LOL

[JB]

I quite bidding on any reserve auction long ago. That's not an auction. It's a "for sale" ad. Whey start an auction out at $.01 when the reserve is $500, $1,000, etc. To me it's a suckers game.

[Hobie]

The reserve is to ensure that the seller gets what he believes (or is trying to convince somebody else) is the full value for his item (gun or not). It isn't a game and is done in many sorts of auctions. There is no need to disclose the reserve and sometimes running through the auction process with a reserve can be used to show that the supposed value of something is not as much as thought while preserving options for the owner/seller. This can be valuable in settling estates e.g. where one sibling believes an item is worth twice the fair market value. However...

There are many folks who believe it is a "game" and/or that this is a form of deception. They won't bid on items so listed and that is their choice. There are some "sellers" who don't want to sell but are being forced to list (perhaps by their spouse). They are not going to drop their reserve. Also, many sellers don't understand reserves either and even after many dozens of auctions of the same item that fail to meet their reserve they are still valuing their items incorrectly. It is a fact that any thing is only worth what you can get in trade for it be that traded item actual money or "in kind".

In the past I have used reserves BUT seeing that an item got no bids close to the reserve price (in a couple of instances) I offered it to the highest bidder for his bid amount. In other words I abandoned the reserve. Some will do this when they re-list the item.

My approach in buying is to bid what I believe to be the fair market price LESS additional costs such as transfer fees and shipping. If I get it, fine. If I don't, fine. If I "need" it so badly that I'll pay extra/above the usual going rate, then that's on me. I bid once and never go back.

[madman4570]

Remember-------------

When you put in your maximum bid on GunBroker it's software automatically does the minimum bid deal and keeps uping yours till it reaches that point where it takes to win the item. So GunBroker essentially itself has a kinda "sniping software", you just put in the highest you can go.

You don't have to watch nothing.
Example: Seller Hopes to get $500 for a gun(this is not with Buy It Now)
The current bid is now at $200(say 12 people have bid on it so far)
You put in your max bid of$410 right now.
That system will keep upping the bid each time someone bids less than $410 automatically in small increments.
If it ends up 20 people placed bids and got it to $370 (you get it for $380 or whatever the jump is)not the $410
With the reserve if the guy put $500(whether hidden or not)don't make much difference.

The key is(get a couple good gun value books,and get schooled some more on gun values and then take in what the gun is worth with that knowledge you now have(TO YOU). Place you MAX bid be done with it and let it automatically do the rest.
You do have to wait for nothing/or spend any time.

[earlmck]

Even after all the helpful comments here I remained curious about "reserve price" auctions and auction strategy in general. I thought I'd do a little investigating, which had a bonus effect of getting me much more aware of prices for model 94 Winchesters. The following statistics come from Gunbroker, model 94 Winchesters. Here is what I found:

In the past 2 months there were 7228 model 94s advertised on Gunbroker. (The actual number if individual rifles is considerably less since a number of these didn't sell and were readvertised several times over the 2 month period.) Of these 5390 were advertised as "no reserve" and 1838 were "reserve" auctions. So about 25% of the auctions are "reserve" auctions.

There were 220 of these model 94s which sold. 44 of these sales (20%) were "reserve" auctions where the reserve was met.
So with 25% of the auctions listed with a "reserve" and only 20% of the sales being from these "reserve" auctions we see that reserve auctions have a slightly lower probability of making a sale. This isn't near the bias against reserve auctions I expected to find, I guess because the reserve auctions that I have noticed are the ones where I see the same item week after week being advertised and the reserve never being met. I just haven't noticed the ones where the reserve got met within the first few bids and so went zooming onward.

And you know those auctions that start of at $.01 with no reserve? I always thought those folks were ballsy, maybe even desperate. Man was I wrong! Those always garner a bunch of bids and sell for a decent price. I didn't find one spot where somebody ended up giving up a $500 gun for $50. Nearly 20% of the sales were auctions with 20 or more bids (hot!) and nearly all these are the ".01, No Reserve" auctions. Just one was a reserve auction and I'd wager it was one where the reserve got met very early in the process. So if you're aim is to generate some serious bidding fever you want to go the ".01, No Reserve" route. The more I looked at completed auctions the more I suspect that my old technique of using a "start price" of some minimum I can live with and then letting the bidding proceed just trims out the "bid fever" possibility and gets a good but not a great price. From here on out I am using the ".01, No Reserve" strategy for anything I decide to sell. Yeah, I have a couple that could go without hurting my feelings and make room for something "new".

This took a while to find the data, even with the different ways you can arrange stuff with Gunbroker's nifty "advanced search" feature. And I did look at a lot of nice gun pictures along the way, so I could make a note of what sold for my model 94 education. Which leads to smokenrust's comment about the value of pictures: yep, I don't think you get a really good price without having really good pictures, especially on the old ones. Commemoratives NIB you can get away with less in the way of pictures.

So I just thought I'd share the results of this onerous research with you folks who are interested in the buying and the selling.

[madman4570]

You did a bunch of work there friend!
Good stuff and great to know(if you were here i would buy you a beer)

[Pete44ru]

[You don't have to wait for nothing/or spend any time.]

Yeah, but then, some folks wouldn't have anything to complain about - besides about things not going their way. .

.

[O.S.O.K.]

I have done quite well on gunbroker selling my guns. I do understand the use of the reserve function but I prefer to achieve the objective without using it. That is, not having a too low bid. I find it annoying and I think that the majority of people do too. I get the views by use of good listing description and a thumbnail image.

What I do is list a starting bid that is the lowest acceptable price I will take and then I add a "buy now" amount that is a bit more than I would hope to get on the high side. About 1/2 of the time, I get the buy now purchase and the other half, some amount of bidding with about 1/2 of that the starting bid...

I know this keeps me from getting the "stupid" purchase of a really high amount, but I really just want a fair price and to move the gun or I wouldn't be selling it.

[earlmck]

You did a bunch of work there friend!
Good stuff and great to know(if you were here i would buy you a beer)

Well hey, one of these days! And I'll buy you one for the labor you did with brush deflection and the shotgun slugs -- now that was good work!

[Larkbill]

This all falls in line with what I experienced when I sold a hobby car a few years back on that really popular auction site. My first listing started at .01 and had a reserve based on my cost of car and included parts. Bids got up to within $50 of my reserve. Sucked it up and re-listed with no reserve and a starting price of about 60% of what I hoped to get. Shazam! Three bidders fought it out to the bitter end and a fourth jumped in during the final seconds and snatched it. I ended up getting $250 more than I hoped, and it was a $1500 car at best.

The guy who bought turned out to be a great buyer who eventually bought some more parts from me, and we still exchange Christmas cards. The car was a '59 Studebaker Lark sedan that he wanted for his wife, who wanted her own Stude, and didn't want to learn how to drive his stick shift Silver Hawk. No, she didn't have any sisters.

[jjames]

I generally, ignore Reserve auctions unless the reserve has been met as my experience has been if they put a reserve on the firearm they want more than it is worth. What I love are the folks who get mad at the lowball bids that people place on their $.01 Starting bid Reserve auctions and threaten to blackball the bidders.

[Hobie]

You did a bunch of work there friend!

Dittos. I only knew this through long exposure to the auction process/business.

[6pt-sika]

From selling for myself and the local gunsmith shop I do quite a bit of selling and buying on Gunbroker . A major portion of what we sell comes from consignors now as I've pretty much eliminated all the fat from my accumultion .

Anyway our normal practise is to ask a consignor what they wish to get for their item . And then if I think it's absurd I tell them so . After we agree on their starting price I then add 10% for our commission as well as what I think the Gunbroker fee's will be . So then if my consignor wanted $100 I would start the item at about $115 . Also I typically do not put reserves on auctions preferring to let my bidders know if they bid on my item they will get it unless someone outbids them .

Sometimes however I will get a consignor that wants to play the game shall we say . Lest say I start the item at $100 with a reserve and the Buy it now is at $300 . Typically my reserve will split the difference , others don't always do that but thats my general policy in such matters .

Also with my unreserved auctions I will set the buy it now maybe $50 or so dollars above what I deem the item's actual worth . You would be amazed the number of times a new bidder will hit the buy it now with only a couple hours remaining in the auction even though no one else bid the item .

Again I try and refrain from reserve auctions but sometimes the consignor thinks they know more about it then the person they are paying to sell the item and when you're being paid for a service you must be agreeable to a degree .

[6pt-sika]

I generally, ignore Reserve auctions unless the reserve has been met as my experience has been if they put a reserve on the firearm they want more than it is worth. What I love are the folks who get mad at the lowball bids that people place on their $.01 Starting bid Reserve auctions and threaten to blackball the bidders.

Know what you mean !

I got what appearred to be an irate email from a guy on Gunbroker that started his reserve auction at $1 and had his buy it now at something in excess of $1,000 . If my momery serves I bid $300 on his item and he took offense at that and did as you say black balled me from bidding his auctions anylonger . His action kept me up many sleepless nights , yeah right and if you believe that one I have Rober E. Lee's Colt army for sale on GB at $59.99 no reserve

[Charles]

I have been buying and selling stuff at auctions long before Ebay, Gunbroker existed or even the computer. There have always been "reserve" and "non-reserve" auctions. It is not a game, or any kind of trickery. What an item sells for just depends on who shows up that day. If a fellow has an item, but doesn't want to take the chance on the wrong folks showing up that day and buying the item for 10 cents on the dollar, he puts a reserve price on the item. It is really stupid not to.

Folks who do not understand auctions should stay away from them and buy retail in the store. Auctions are a different way to buy and sell and nobody is playing games.

[Dave]

I am with you on the reserve thing being a PITA. If I sell a gun on GB I start it at the least I will take for it with no reserve. I do not understand the reserve thing unless someone doesn't really want to sell the gun.

[6pt-sika]

I am with you on the reserve thing being a PITA. If I sell a gun on GB I start it at the least I will take for it with no reserve. I do not understand the reserve thing unless someone doesn't really want to sell the gun.

Some have tried to explain their rationale behind the reserve auction . And here's the jist of what a got from it .

They worked on the idea that they would start a high dollar item at a very low price in hopes of starting a bidding war . You know in the heat of bidding some folks have been known to loose control and over bid . However they also don't wanna leave it out there uncovered so to speak and loose a large amount for an item that went way low .

Let me just say anytime one of my own personal items is on an auction site you'll bever be able to buy it for less then I have in it . I'll always start the auction at that price plus enough to cover the GB fee's !

[Hobie]

Reserves are ALSO used to protect the seller from the auction going TU during the auction, coming back on line when others couldn't bid thus resulting in a low winning bid. Is it reasonable? I'd leave that for each seller to decide. Is it done for that reason? Absolutely.

I'd like to point out that as buyers may not like reserves, sellers inevitably feel more comfortable selling with a reserve even if the logic of not doing it prevents them from using a reserve. IOW, you as a buyer want to pay as little as possible. You as a seller want at least what you have in it.

"Buy it now" is a whole other discussion. Some love it, some hate it, some have figured out how to use it and some are so ignorant or unobservant that they bid above the "buy it now" price. Once bidding goes past the "buy it now" price, it is all bidding.