Marlin 454?

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:30 pm

Marlin 454.Why don't they make them?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:41 pm

Simple, the Marlin action is incapable of withstanding the very high pressures of the 454.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:41 pm

They won't take the pressure.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:53 pm

Yup.. That's the bottom line...

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jan 21, 2012 8:33 pm

It's been tried and determined unhealthy.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:52 am

It would be interesting if John Browning were around now, and there were fewer lawyers and patent-stealing and so on.

I'll bet a levergun with differently-angled and forward locking lugs or another iteration of the tipping-bolt or rotary-bolt designs could be made to handle the pressures.

It would be quite a thing to have a .454 Casull lever-carbine to mate with a .454 Casull single-action field-gun, and a Charter Bulldog-sized .45 Colt to round off the collection as a concealed-carry gun.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:27 pm

Several years ago, I designed and built a Truly traditional, prototype levergun that WILL take the abuse of the .454, and the .500 S&W.. It was featured several times on this forum. Basically, it is a somewhat scaled down '86, with proper locking geometry, and suitable materials.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:33 pm

Rossi chambers a version of the Winchester 92 in .454. The 92 is a stronger action than the Marlins, 336 or 1894, being somewhat of a scaled-down version of the 1886.

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:02 pm

Why don't marlin build a lever gun,chambering for 45/454 ? I think this 45/454 combination is the best all around cartridges for most of the world hunters ? *Have your say*

Marlin32 · Post by **Marlin32** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:12 pm

Not sure what you mean by "world hunter" but I would have zero interest.
What would make this so universal?? Why not the 450?

Course, this is from someone trying to improve the 32 Special, the 338 Marlin and re-invent the 356. So take that for what it is worth.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:14 pm

They suposedly were making one called the 1895RL for the 480 Ruger/475 Linebaugh that never came to be !

So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to make one in 454 Casull .

Personally I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to make much of anything in the lever action field for quite some time .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:16 pm

Marlin32 wrote:Course, this is from someone trying to improve the 32 Special.

Hmmm pretty difficult to improve on perfection

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:43 pm

The cartridge produces too much pressure for any of The Marlin actions. Only the 92 and 92/86 Winchester hybrids can handle the battering.

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:46 pm

Well, now, as a bigfoot hunter. I couldn't find this post, so i posted it again?

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:50 pm

Marlin32 wrote:Not sure what you mean by "world hunter" but I would have zero interest.
What would make this so universal?? Why not the 450?

Course, this is from someone trying to improve the 32 Special, the 338 Marlin and re-invent the 356. So take that for what it is worth.

Well OK, what about North America?

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:55 pm

C. Cash wrote:The cartridge produces too much pressure for any of The Marlin actions. Only the 92 and 92/86 Winchester hybrids can handle the battering.

Well they shouldn't be stop ,by a little thing like pressure. Just copy the 92 design, Duh.

Note: If you wonder why this is my second post on this subject ,in the last two days? Well as a Bigfoot hunter, I couldn't find it, so i posted again.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:47 pm

6pt-sika wrote:
Marlin32 wrote:Course, this is from someone trying to improve the 32 Special.

Hmmm pretty difficult to improve on perfection

Agreed, thats why the 30/30 is still here & the 32 aint.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:50 pm

tomtex wrote:
C. Cash wrote:The cartridge produces too much pressure for any of The Marlin actions. Only the 92 and 92/86 Winchester hybrids can handle the battering.
Well they shouldn't be stop ,by a little thing like pressure. Just copy the 92 design, Duh. Note: If you wonder why this is my second post on this subject ,in the last two days? Well as a Bigfoot hunter, I couldn't find it, so i posted again.

Well, um,,, Marlin makes Marlins, or I should say Remington makes marlins. Theres already 454s built on the Win 92 action available from Rossi. Personally I'm of the opinion that my 45/70 can do everything that 454 can do plus some with less pressure. AND you can buy a 45/70 BFR if you need a similar chambered revolver.

CalvinMD · Post by **CalvinMD** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:19 pm

I gotta agree..the 45-70 will cover everything and shoot forever without self destructing within its design limits....now I would still not mind a 480 Ruger in a '94 though

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:20 pm

Leverdude wrote:
6pt-sika wrote:
Marlin32 wrote:Course, this is from someone trying to improve the 32 Special.

Hmmm pretty difficult to improve on perfection

Agreed, thats why the 30/30 is still here & the 32 aint.

They don't call me Einstein for nuthin LOL's !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:25 pm

CalvinMD wrote:....now I would still not mind a 480 Ruger in a '94 though

Maybe 6-8 years ago Marlin "claimed" they were making that one on the 1895 action and the two years before that Winchester "claimed" they were making it on the 94 action !

Neither came to be as I bugged the ever loving heck outta both of them when they had it in their catalogs !

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:28 pm

tomtex wrote:Well, now, as a bigfoot hunter. I couldn't find this post, so i posted it again?

How do you expect to find the elusive Bigfoot, if you can't even find your own post on a discussion board..?

So far, your comments and replies have shown a total lack of understanding of mechanics or manufacturing, let alone ballistics.. You argue with the answers you receive, based purely on a wild-haired desire to have something that doesn't exist..

BTW, even the Rossi is only marginally adequate to handle the .454, and a steady diet of anything approaching full loads (62,000 - 65,000 psi chamber pressure) will take a quick toll on the little '92.. Freedom Arms did some experimenting with Browning/Miroku '92s, and deemed them unsuitable for conversion.. While I was building my rifle, someone at Winchester heard about my experiments, and that company collaborated with FA on tests of Winchester '94s, which ultimately led them to the same conclusion I had reached, namely, the '94, even in the Big Bore version, would not hold up to the pounding of the .454 cartridge. My own tests destroyed a 336 Marlin, and rendered 4 or 5 Model 94 Winchesters 'hors de combat.. ' The particular Winchester that failed quickest (fewest rounds) was an angle-eject Big Bore, originally chambered for the .375 Winchester cartridge.. but even it outlasted the Marlin...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:30 pm

I'd like one in .454, IF it were possible, because it is a great cartridge, in a gun with a lever-throw and action far shorter than the .45-70 or .444 Marlin.

Maybe a Savage 99 action could be modified to take the pressures, if built with modern materials and methods, but without a slick marketing (maybe co-marketing ammo with someone, and co-marketing a handgun to go with it), I doubt enough sales would be predicted to justify them building such a gun.

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:48 pm

tomtex wrote: Well they shouldn't be stop ,by a little thing like pressure. Just copy the 92 design, Duh. Note: If you wonder why this is my second post on this subject ,in the last two days? Well as a Bigfoot hunter, I couldn't find it, so i posted again.

I answered your question, more completely than I felt inclined to, in your "other" thread.. The one that You, the Bigfoot Hunter, couldn't find.. The information there is intended mostly for others who might be following the thread, because I fear most of it will be lost on you.. In the future, may I suggest that you do not combine typing and drinking... Either one alone seems to be your limit..

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:07 pm

For what it may be worth, the guys at Big Horn Armory followed pretty much the same trail, in designing and building their .500 S&W levergun, rendering a 336 Marlin inoperable with maximum loads for that cartridge, which SAAMI limits to 60,000 psi, maximum.. Damage to their Marlin was identical to the one I ruined.. Battering and deformation of locking lug and breech bolt, as well as the lug recesses in the receiver, with bulging of the receiver side walls in the area of the lug recesses. Operation and lockup of the gun became impossible.. I don't know how many firings the BHA Marlin stood up to, but ours was totally finished in less than 15 shots...

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:21 pm

So here you go, all combined in one place so nobody needs to look too hard to find it.

I thank Buck for taking the time, this time, to respond to this perennially favorite question. His responses were elucidating and accurate, I think.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:25 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:For what it may be worth, the guys at Big Horn Armory followed pretty much the same trail, in designing and building their .500 S&W levergun, rendering a 336 Marlin inoperable with maximum loads for that cartridge, which SAAMI limits to 60,000 psi, maximum.. Damage to their Marlin was identical to the one I ruined.. Battering and deformation of locking lug and breech bolt, as well as the lug recesses in the receiver, with bulging of the receiver side walls in the area of the lug recesses. Operation and lockup of the gun became impossible.. I don't know how many firings the BHA Marlin stood up to, but ours was totally finished in less than 15 shots...

Are you the same person I heard that got Marlin 1894 going with the 50 Action Express ?

There was an article about this one in Guns and Ammo a few years back . I think Mick McPherson started the gun and possibly you were the one that finsihed it ?

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:57 pm

No, sir... That wasn't yours truly.. I vaguely remember Hearing about something like that, but I had nothing to do with it.. I suppose it could be made to work, rebated rim and all, because it is a relatively mild, 35,000 psi cartridge...

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:Several years ago, I designed and built a Truly traditional, prototype levergun that WILL take the abuse of the .454, and the .500 S&W.. It was featured several times on this forum. Basically, it is a somewhat scaled down '86, with proper locking geometry, and suitable materials.

i remember...............and i am still pining away for one of them.....honestly.. wish they could go in to production!

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:25 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:No, sir... That wasn't yours truly.. I vaguely remember Hearing about something like that, but I had nothing to do with it.. I suppose it could be made to work, rebated rim and all, because it is a relatively mild, 35,000 psi cartridge...

I think the article actually was about a fellow making a Marlin 1894 into a 480 Ruger (now that I think on it some more) and if memory serves he sort of had a 50 AE on the back burner waiting it's turn .

And now that I think about it a bit more I think Ben Forkin was the guy that did the work . Somewhere in all my stuff I have the Guns and Ammo with the article inside .

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 2:14 am

Buck Elliott wrote:
tomtex wrote: Well they shouldn't be stop ,by a little thing like pressure. Just copy the 92 design, Duh. :o Note: If you wonder why this is my second post on this subject ,in the last two days? Well as a Bigfoot hunter, I couldn't find it, so i posted again. :roll:
I answered your question, more completely than I felt inclined to, in your "other" thread.. The one that You, the Bigfoot Hunter, couldn't find.. The information there is intended mostly for others who might be following the thread, because I fear most of it will be lost on you.. In the future, may I suggest that you do not combine typing and drinking... Either one alone seems to be your limit.. :roll:

ouch... :)

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:17 pm

Sadly, we can no longer look to the old-line makers, such as Marlin, Mossberg (?) and Winchester to translte their time-worn designs into today's technology.. Marlin is mired in the 336/94 mode, while Henry and several others bastardize the same designs for their own purposes.. Mossberg's 464 is a blatant (and poor) copy of Winchester's 1894, which has now been "Zombiefied" to the point of ridiculousness, and Winchester keeps wanting to resurrect their flimsy 94 in an array of new disguises, while neglecting the mighty 86 and its very capable little brother, the 92.. Meanwhile, Rossi and associates crank out their mediocre versions of the 92, and anything of value, bearing the Winchester name, comes from Japan... And we leave it up to the Italians to build the "Old" Winchesters, and do it better than Winchester did, back in the day...

Obviiously, there are no real Engineers left at any of the three companies, and all their new products are designed by the crack-smokin' dropouts in their marketing departments... i doubt their market "research" ever extends far beyond the walls of their department offices, except on forays to the water cooler or the mens' room... Those guys show up for work (most days) say they are "working" on something, and continue to collect their paychecks.. While we wait, and watch, and wonder...

Firearms manufacture requires a huge investment of Capital, for machinery, tools, land and shop facilities, and for cream of the crop designers, mechanics, draftsmen, marketers and maintenence people... Outsourcing of parts manufacture may work wellfor car-makers but ca be the kiss of death for gun manufacturers...

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:34 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:
tomtex wrote: Well they shouldn't be stop ,by a little thing like pressure. Just copy the 92 design, Duh. Note: If you wonder why this is my second post on this subject ,in the last two days? Well as a Bigfoot hunter, I couldn't find it, so i posted again.
I answered your question, more completely than I felt inclined to, in your "other" thread.. The one that You, the Bigfoot Hunter, couldn't find.. The information there is intended mostly for others who might be following the thread, because I fear most of it will be lost on you.. In the future, may I suggest that you do not combine typing and drinking... Either one alone seems to be your limit..

I know Buck ant it just terrible? Buck would you give use an overview of your lever gun design, and possible cartridge chambering?

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:03 pm

Buck would you give use an overview of your lever gun design, and possible cartridge chambering?

I aint Buck, but I think this might be what you are asking for. http://bighornarmory.com/products/

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:15 am

While it is similar in concept, the Big Horn rifle is different from mine in some important aspects.. I had nothing to do with designing the BHA gun.

As I worked on my design, I kept other calibers/cartridges in mind, so in addition to the .454, it could be adapted to the .475 Linebaugh, .475 Maximum, .500 Linebaugh and .500 Maximum, and by extension, the later .500 S&W... There is no logical reason to adapt it to the shorter rounds, such as the .50 AE or the .480 Ruger.. The latter two would work better in a 92 Winchester-length action..

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 7:53 am

My apologies, I thought that they were making your design.

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 12:28 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:Several years ago, I designed and built a Truly traditional, prototype levergun that WILL take the abuse of the .454, and the .500 S&W.. It was featured several times on this forum. Basically, it is a somewhat scaled down '86, with proper locking geometry, and suitable materials.

Buck seem to be a good bit of interest from Gun manufactures,
in lever gun designs,why not approach them again,i would think Ruger and Savage needs to market a lever gun?

WyrTwister · Post by **WyrTwister** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:23 pm

AJMD429 wrote:It would be interesting if John Browning were around now, and there were fewer lawyers and patent-stealing and so on.

I'll bet a levergun with differently-angled and forward locking lugs or another iteration of the tipping-bolt or rotary-bolt designs could be made to handle the pressures.

It would be quite a thing to have a .454 Casull lever-carbine to mate with a .454 Casull single-action field-gun, and a Charter Bulldog-sized .45 Colt to round off the collection as a concealed-carry gun.

Rossi sold ( at least for a while ) a M 1892 clone in .454 .

God bless
Wyr

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 5:20 pm

Rossi still does.. The gun has not been without pressure-related problems, and IMO, has not been a howling success...

Buck Elliott · Post by **Buck Elliott** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 12:53 am

hfcable wrote:
Buck Elliott wrote:Several years ago, I designed and built a Truly traditional, prototype levergun that WILL take the abuse of the .454, and the .500 S&W.. It was featured several times on this forum. Basically, it is a somewhat scaled down '86, with proper locking geometry, and suitable materials.

i remember...............and i am still pining away for one of them.....honestly.. wish they could go in to production!

Just between you and me, and the gate-post ..... Honestly ... I wish I could get them into production too...

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:25 am

tomtex wrote:Marlin 454.Why don't they make them?

Can you spell KaaaBooommmmmmmm!

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 3:29 am

I am not a gun designer, but I know there are limits to what metal can take before it starts to give. There are stresses and strains, and there are definitions of both and they are not the same thing, which cause metal bonds to release. This is best termed a catastrophic failure as it certainly can be a catastrophe when it happens. The locking mechanism of the Marlin design works great with lower pressure rounds, but the design does not have enough metal to metal surface to withstand the repeated pounding from cartridges above 45,000 cup. Take a Marlin apart and look at how it locks up, there is really not a large area keeping it all locked up, where the Model 92 has more, and the 1886 has even more. I have not seen Buck's design or the Big Horn Armory design, so I cannot comment on them with any accuracy. The higher pressure cartridges need more lockup than the low pressure ones. Look up the reason why the vaunted Mr. Mauser lost an eye. No, it is pretty obvious that Marlin's current design is pretty much at its limit with a .45-70 or a .444 cartridge. Now, if some company would just come up with a way to get Buck's design into production...

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 1:52 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:BTW, even the Rossi is only marginally adequate to handle the .454, and a steady diet of anything approaching full loads (62,000 - 65,000 psi chamber pressure) will take a quick toll on the little '92.

Not to put words in his mouth, but PK seems to disagree on this point. To quote:

Gunblast.com wrote:A little over four years ago, Paco Kelly was also skeptical, but decided to try one for himself. He was so impressed with the .454 Puma that he wrote a review for Gunblast, which was published in December of 2002, and is in our ARCHIVE section...[Ed. Note: From subsequent conversations I have had with Paco, he remains as impressed as ever with the Puma .454. There have been no failures or problems of any kind after digesting thousands of Paco's hot handloads. - Boge Quinn]

Seeing as how the original review was in 2002 and the followup note in 2007, I'm thinking the Rossi might be more than "adequate" in its ability to handle the .454; potential discrepancies between Puma/Legacy/Rossi notwithstanding.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 2:09 pm

Buck Elliott wrote:Rossi still does.. The gun has not been without pressure-related problems, and IMO, has not been a howling success...

Early on they did have issues. The current guns are much better. As for howling success if you mean sales, while Rossi was busy making the silly Ranch Hands and the supply of 454's was dried up and I was seeing them going for $1000 and up on the auction sites.

BTW, They are becoming available again. I just got some 20" stainless 454's if anyone is interested