New production Winchester 94s?

[El Chivo]

I have long been a student of WWII and buying Japanese leaves a bad taste in my mouth. You have to with electronics and stuff but there are plenty of good American guns. I'm not such an aficionado that I need to get one of the Miroku's to be happy.

[DPris]

While not a student of WWII, the era has always interested me greatly.
Today, I own guns from Italy, Germany, and Japan. With neither apology nor embarrassment.
And I'm far from the only person here who does.
You may, perhaps, get my point?

[Old Savage]

Thanks Streetstar - interested in that - birth year and all. Are there any distinctive features to the 47?

[Cimarron Red]

Ah, yes, Dpris. Agreed. And I even own a few things made in France, such as Gitzo tripods -- despite the fact that the Vichy government opposed our invasion of French North Africa in November, 1942.

[Ji in Hawaii]

If the new Winchesters were made in Germany I don't think you'd be hearing as many negative comments even though more Americans were killed by Germans than by Japanese in WWII.
Just an FYI more Filipinos were killed by Americans during US occupation than by the Japanese.

[J Miller]

I once worked for an auto parts store and one of our best commercial accounts was owned by a WW II vet. He hated and despised the Japanese of all ages because of what their ancestors did during the war.
He went so far as to refuse to work on the vehicles of any body of Japanese heritage, even if they were US born citizens.
Pure unadulterated bigotry.

I do not hate any people, but I do have one belief system on my 'it list.

That said, my wife and I drive Nissans and take our pics with Canon cameras and have a number of Japanese made sewing machines in our collection. They all work great. I have nothing against Japanese products.
I also have nothing against Miroku made firearms except when the name "Winchester" is stamped on them. Those marked "Browning" are no big deal because Browning traditionally had their guns made out of the US.

I suppose I could even ignore the name "Winchester" on the Miroku guns if they were not equipped with the rebounding hammer and safety atrocities.

JMHO

Joe

[DPris]

Joe,
I think the entire world, all of the known universe, and much of the unknown universe, knows your opinion of the Miroku Winchesters.
I have no problem whatever with you NOT wanting a Miroku Winchester.
I understand your reasons for NOT wanting a Miroku Winchester.
I'll even take this opportunity to BEG you NOT TO EVER BUY ONE!

I merely point out, for others, that we most likely ALL own products made by former enemies, and boycotting Japanese guns because that country happened to be one of 'em is hypocritical & unrealistic.

Other'n that, if you don't want to buy one, nobody's pointing a gun at you (American-made or otherwise) and forcing you do it.
Denis

[J Miller]

Joe,
I think the entire world, all of the known universe, and much of the unknown universe, knows your opinion of the Miroku Winchesters.
I only dislike those marked WINCHESTER that have the rebounding hammer and safeties. I have no animosity for the others.

I have no problem whatever with you NOT wanting a Miroku Winchester.
None??? Darn.

I understand your reasons for NOT wanting a Miroku Winchester.
I hope so, I've really tried to be clear on them.

I'll even take this opportunity to BEG you NOT TO EVER BUY ONE!
I hate to see a man beg. You really don't have to.

I merely point out, for others, that we most likely ALL own products made by former enemies, and boycotting Japanese guns because that country happened to be one of 'em is hypocritical & unrealistic.
We totally agree on that.

Other'n that, if you don't want to buy one, nobody's pointing a gun at you (American-made or otherwise) and forcing you do it.
Thank goodness for that. I just might point back with my Italian made cowboy pistol.
Denis

Denis,
Seriously, it's not the Japanese guns I dislike. It's a foreign company buying what was once an American company, then making the guns over seas and selling them with the name of the American company stamped on them that once made them. For some reason that just irks the stuffing out of me.

Uberti makes replicas of many American guns. But they don't stamp Colt, S&W, Winchester, or any other American company names on them.
I have NOTHING against Browning having Miroku make John M. Browning designed guns then selling them as Brownings. I just can't abide the Winchester name on them.


Am I beating a dead horse? I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. Does anybody else think I'm beating a dead horse?


Joe

[Don McDowell]

I don't know about the dead horse thing Joe, but you should keep in mind that Winchester's most popular and successful designs were...... John M Brownings patents.....

[Ji in Hawaii]

The Winchester trademark I believe is still owned by the American company Olin Corporation who manufactures the Winchester ammunition. The Winchester brand is today used under license by two subsidiaries of the Belgian Herstal Group, Fabrique Nationale (FN) of Belgium and the Browning Arms Company of Morgan, Utah. Miroku does not owned Winchester they are just a subcontractor that makes some of Herstal's rifles and shotguns. Don't get mad at Miroku get mad at Herstal of Belgium or better yet at Olin for licensing out the Winchester name to Herstal. If Herstal was smart they could subcontract 1873s to Uberti and have the Winchester name on them legally if they wanted. Probably too small a market to interest them with already enough competition.

Henry ain't made Henry, Marlin ain't made by Marlin, Winchester ain't made by Winchester, haven't been for many decades.

[DPris]

Joe,
Like I said- I understand what it is YOU don't like about the Miroku Winchesters. Honest!

My message isn't directed at you, it's directed at those who boycott a well-made line of high-quality guns simply because they're made by the Japanese.
All the while not even having the grace to blush slightly while owning German & Italian guns, not to mention the occasional Russian & Chinese gun.
Denis

[El Chivo]

Joe,
Like I said- I understand what it is YOU don't like about the Miroku Winchesters. Honest!

My message isn't directed at you, it's directed at those who boycott a well-made line of high-quality guns simply because they're made by the Japanese.
All the while not even having the grace to blush slightly while owning German & Italian guns, not to mention the occasional Russian & Chinese gun.
Denis

Where do you get this about liking German and Italian guns? Mine are all American, I thought I made that clear. If you want to buy American, guns are about your only chance.

It's interesting that you assume my bigotry is against Orientals, where it's not. It's your bigoted assumption that as a bigot I must not like yellow people. Basically I'm against bullies and totalitarians. It's about two cultures that set themselves above the rest of humanity, so that they felt justified in stealing what they wanted, killing to get it or just killing for the heck of it. To them bayoneting Chinese toddlers or gassing Jewish children was all in a day's work and good fun. The Germans in Russia took everything, right down to the potatoes hidden beneath the floorboards. Anyone who fought back was a "war criminal".

Now, about my "boycott". People who earn their money have a right to spend it where and how they wish, and they tend to spend it with people they respect and admire and want to support. I have even less stuff from Germany than from Japan (I'm of German descent by the way).

I have come to these conclusions late in life due to what I've learned about the Germans and Japanese and what they did in the war, but mostly that they caused it in the first place. Pure hubris and arrogance, which is a cultural phenomenon, and I don't think things have changed all that much since then. They may not want to go to war again, but it's not because they've seen the light, it's because they got whupped.

[DPris]

Absolutely- spend your money any way you want.

So will I, and it'll be based on the quality & the perceived need, not the wartime history of the nation that produces it.

My message was broadly directed, this "Made In Japan" automatic dis-qualifier comes up fairly regularly by people on gun forums when the current Miroku "Winchesters" are mentioned. By people who own products from other countries we've fought in the distant past.

If the shoe fits, wear it; if not, don't.
Denis

[tman]

So what, and from whom, can we buy stuff from? Everybody's got blood on their hands, including the US. If u read history, not the modern day Revisinonists version, it ain't pretty. Those without sin, cast the 1st stones.

[Ji in Hawaii]

So what, and from whom, can we buy stuff from? Everybody's got blood on their hands, including the US. If u read history, not the modern day Revisinonists version, it ain't pretty. Those without sin, cast the 1st stones.

Amen, to be honestly consistent you need to boycott buying real American made Winchesters. The wholesale slaughter of native Americans, the murder of thousands of Filipino men, women, and children, the illegal overthrow, occupation and annexation of the Kingdom of Hawai'i, the list goes on.
To suggest the Japanese are still warmongers is just plain rubbish opinion not based on any facts.
I have no doubt some here got pleasure watching the devastation caused by the Tsunami last year.

[tman]

The poor bastards that make products in Germany, Japan and even Vietnam are just like the rest of us. Going to work, trying to build a quality product. They ain't the ones who wanted World dominace. That Myth was sold to us by a government controlled by the Military Industrial Complex. The dirt farmers in Vietnam weren't looking to invade the US, Day to day survival is all they cared about.

[Leverdude]

The strangest things can turn political. The bottom line is you simply cant build a 94, or any of Brownings lever action designs here for $400+- & you cant make really nice ones anyplace for that price. So we can choose from 4 or 5 hundred dollar Rossi's or 12 to 14 hundred dollar Jap guns. I wonder if Rossi will make a 94 action?

[deafrn]

The bottom line is you simply cant build a 94, or any of Brownings lever action designs here for $400+- & you cant make really nice ones anyplace for that price.

All too true, and there is no single "bad guy" to excoriate. I think we are currently seeing the final act being played out with Marlins- the days of domestically made "loss leader" and "mass marketed" leverguns is essentially over. The likes of the "average" hunter change a bit with each generation, and the trend towards more modern firearms is a natural progression, leaving older types to an increasingly limited market. The manufacturer can cheapen the product or raise the prices, either choice having practical limits. The Rossis - and (in my opinion) Henrys to some extent - are examples of the former, the Miroku "Winchesters" and some of the better Italian winclones being the latter. Rightly or wrongly, the middle eventually gets squeezed too hard to continue breathing... I suspect the Kenna family got out while they thought the gettin' was still good.

As with all things, there is a carriage trade end of the spectrum for those who want the "best." One can now buy any number of truly excellent American-made replicas of single-shot rifles, and I believe the same will happen with lever guns (Turnbull's beautiful offerings might indicate that this has already has started).

So we can choose from 4 or 5 hundred dollar Rossi's or 12 to 14 hundred dollar Jap guns.

Again, that is spot-on. The old rule of thumb that it took so many weeks of the average paycheck to purchase a good sporting rifle (or shotgun, or .22 target pistol...) might be a bit vague, but such truisms have really never been that far out of line except when some material or procedural breakthrough first shows up - such as the introduction of the Glock 17 - and turns the market on its head. The purchase of a "good" firearm was a steep commitment for the old timers in my family, and sometimes they had to settle for the somewhat less refined and far less durable ironmongery from New England's lesser lights. In my own experience, a decent Rossi with some TLC is a good gun, and a Miroku is a good gun right out of the box; I've had times in my life where I could afford either of them, and times I could only afford one.

I wonder if Rossi will make a 94 action?

Since they are now making what is essentially a Marlin 336 as well as a Winchester 92, my bet would be that they won't bother with the 94.

***

As for buying from overseas sources, that is part of the history of every civilization since the dawn of time- and if the love/hate relationships between nations/peoples were presented in a comprehensive list, even some students of history would probably be shocked at the fickleness of ALL of them. My family has ceased to be incensed by the Highland Clearings and the Edict of Fontainebleau, but we are many generations removed from those who got the pointy end of the stick up close and personal. Were we to have gone through it ourselves, we wouldn't have forgotten and neither would our children; after three generations pass, then all bets are off.