rebarreled 1894, wondering what caliber from factory...

[smokenrust]

Hi,
I have been doing a little bit of searching on the net and I find that Cody has the records for the Winchesters. ... but want $60 for a authenticated letter.
- I have a rebarreled 1894 Whinchester serial number of 132337 with a (40's or 50's) military barrel and the chamber accepts the 30-30 ammo... but it seems a tad tight in the reciever coming up through the rails.
So that leads me to a simple question of What caliber did this gun come from the factory as?

I also have a chance to aquire an octagon barrel in either the 30 WCF or 32SPL. 26"
Presently the magazine tube is app. 14" - or - 3 1/2 inches beyound the forearm cap. The forearm has been shaved to accomadate the barrel. The barrel is 21 3/4 long.

So the next question, should I just leave it as is or change it to one of the other Octagon barrels?
I guess I would like to set it back to the way the factory had sent it out. But I would like to also hear your ideas on this situation.
Thanks, SnR.

[BenT]

I would put it back to a full rifle configuration with either caliber. It's no longer original, so no harm is done if you switch the barrel. Numrich has octagon endcaps. Switch it out yourself, have fun with it.

[smokenrust]

You guys always want pictures so I will give it a try. Here is the gun with the rebarrel.
Still wonder if it had a smaller diameter shell since the 30-30 casings are tight between the rails while coming up in the reciever.

[edwardyoung]

If it were mine, I wouldn't change a thing. I really like a short magazine and a crescent buttplate. And the character. Looks great.

[BenT]

The cartridges for the Win 94 had the same rim diameter. They were based on the 38-55. So the cartridge guides in the receiver are the same for the 25-35,30-30, 32-40, 32 special,219 zipper. Not sure why the tight fit.

That's a nice looking short rifle.

[twobit]

SnR,

The original barrel for the rifle may have been either full octagon, full round or possible even a half octagon configuration. The magazine has most definintely been cut down to its present length since the end cap is not correct for a factory original short magazine. If you are seriously contemplating the sort of "restore to original configuration" effort the $50 you will spend for the factory letter is going to be nothing compared to the cost of a new barrel, fore end wood, magazine tube and maybe a magazine spring. I would get the letter and do it right.

Michael

[Malamute]

The 25-35's have a slightly smaller body shell. Your gun may have been a 25-35 if it's tight in the guides with 30-30 rounds. The earlier guns had different cartridge guides for the various cartridges.

It looks like it has the correct magazine cap to me, is it dome shaped? It looks like it in the picture (hold ctrl key and run your scroll up to magnify).

Some membership levels at the Cody Museum allow the member to get info on a certain number of guns without paying extra. Maybe someone here can get that info for you.

It's an interesting old gun. Finding decent used parts like a fore end shouldn't be too hard if you are patient, or just use that one on another barrel and use Micro-bed to fill in along the edges.

[Griff]

What do the barrel markings say?

[Malamute]

Griff, it looks and sounds like it was rebarreled with a Springfield barrel.

[Pete44ru]

I like it - I would round up a set of Second Model Receiver.30-30 guides & drop them in (or relieve/file those slightly).

The mag cap looks gennie to me too - most likely originally a special order 1/2 mag .25-35 Rifle.

.

[FLINT]

according to your serial number, your gun was made in 1898.

Here is a picture of my fathers rifle. This one was made in 1899, and was originally chambered in 38-55. When my fathers family bought their farm in upstate ny, this rifle was found in the barn. It wouldn't shoot worth a hoot, so they had it rebarreled to 30WCF - and I think that was sometime in the 40s or 50s. They must have also thrown on the forearm with barrel band when they did that - but it looks like the mag. tube is a similar length to yours.



I wouldn't change anything about this rifle for nothing. but you might not have the same sentimental attachment to yours.

[smokenrust]

The crux of all this is,
1. If this is just an old generic 1894 as in 30WCF makings, (hundreds of thousands sold), It is not worth the letter... But
2. if its another rarer old 1894 (such as special build 25-35), then the letter would be worth something and I would be more incessed in restoring it to the Winchesters build sheet... Even tho the butt stock has 4 gouged marks in the handle (between the upper and lower tangs) from some kills....
Sadly to say, the magazine cap is flat with the slot in it.

I am getting a little convinced from Malamute's post that this might be a 25-35, Just looked up cartridge dia. and the head of a 30-30 is .506 and 25-35 is .505. And when the bolt locks up, there is a definate feel of tightness there.
I have a 32-40 barrel here that I thought about putting on, but thats going the wrong way for a smaller dia. of ammo. Guess I won't be using that one either. Mmm, 32-40 is larger than the 32 WS , which is larger than the 30WCF which is larger than the 25-35.
Ok., could somebody give a confirmation if this would be the right caliber (25-35), for this rifle origionally?

I sure do like reading your comments, thanks guys.

[FLINT]

I would get the letter. For a rifle that old, I think $50 is worth just the curiosity alone.

There might be an argument for the rifle having been chambered in 38-55 or 32-40 as (and I could be wrong) but those were primarily black powder cartridges (unlike the 30wcf or 25-35) at the time that your rifle (and my dad's rifle) were made. and those old black powder barrels tended to get corrupted quicker, resulting in a higher incidence of rebarreling - as in the case of my dad's rifle.

so, get the letter and maybe you can put on your 32-40 barrel. I also have a 32-40 rifle made in the 20's and its a neat cartridge.

the only thing I understand from your last email is how a 32-40 is bigger than a 32WS ??? its the same bullet diameter - the case is a little longer but I don't think any dimension of the 32-40 case or bullet is actually bigger in diameter. I also don't understand how you could tell which cartridge a rifle was chambered for by the guides- as someone else stated, I thought they were all the same - and all were certainly based on the same case - right - from 38-55 down to 25-35 or whatever, its the same case, just necked down to different diameter bullets (or tapered down in the case of the 32-40).

[Ray Newman]

Consider this:

Since the barrel was replaced, are the cartridge guides also replacements?

After 114 years, gawd-only-knows what was done to the rifle since leaving Winchester.

If you want to restore it, get a factory letter from Cody.

[Hobie]

Just in case this isn't clear to you or to anybody lurking. We CAN NOT tell what the original chambering was without a factory letter. Best of luck to you.

[Griff]

Although you may have found a source that states the rim diameter of the .25-35 is .506 compared to a .30WCF @ .505, in truth the .25-35, .30WCF, .32-40, .32WS & .38-55 cartridges all have rim specs in the .506 ±.020 range. And in fact, the body of a .25-35 tapers faster than the .30-30 and will be thinner. In fact, from about the mid-point of the cartridge, a .32-40 is slimmer than a .30-30 to the .30-30s shoulder. Take a look at the dimensions listed here: Levergun cartridge and chamber dimensions.

[Mike D.]

Is the gun rebarreled with an unmarked one, or is it a Winchester barrel? The small ramp on the fuzzy photo "looks" like the ones seen on extra lightweight rifles.

[twobit]

Hobie wrote:

Just in case this isn't clear to you or to anybody lurking. We CAN NOT tell what the original chambering was without a factory letter.

It really does seem pretty simple. Get the letter and then plan accordingly.

25-35 Developed 1895
Parent case .30-30 Winchester
Bullet diameter .258 in (6.6 mm)
Neck diameter .282 in (7.2 mm)
Shoulder diameter .365 in (9.3 mm)
Base diameter .422 in (10.7 mm)
Rim diameter .506 in (12.9 mm)
Rim thickness .063 in (1.6 mm)
Case length 2.043 in (51.9 mm)
Overall length 2.55 in (65 mm

30 WCF Developed 1895
Bullet diameter .308 in (7.8 mm)
Neck diameter .330 in (8.4 mm)
Shoulder diameter .401 in (10.2 mm)
Base diameter .422 in (10.7 mm)
Rim diameter .506 in (12.9 mm)
Rim thickness .063 in (1.6 mm)
Case length 2.039 in (51.8 mm

32 WS Developed 1901
Parent case .30-30 Winchester
Bullet diameter .321 in (8.2 mm)
Neck diameter .343 in (8.7 mm)
Shoulder diameter .401 in (10.2 mm)
Base diameter .422 in (10.7 mm)
Rim diameter .506 in (12.9 mm)
Rim thickness .063 in (1.6 mm)
Case length 2.040 in (51.8 mm)
Overall length 2.565 in (65.2 mm)

32-40 Developed 1884
Bullet diameter .320 in (8.1 mm)
Neck diameter .338 in (8.6 mm)
Shoulder diameter .3455 in (8.78 mm)
Base diameter .424 in (10.8 mm)
Rim diameter .506 in (12.9 mm)
Rim thickness .063 in (1.6 mm)
Case length 2.13 in (54 mm)
Overall length 2.59 in (66 mm

Michael

[smokenrust]

Flint, - I took the numbers out of the Lyman reloading handbook 43rd edition.

Ray, - I don't thing the guides have been changed,.. Whyy would someone put in thicker guides? I do notice that the screws both have just enough head sticking above the guides that a sharp knife will just catch the edge of them but a dull knife passes over. I even got a straight edge to check to see if the reciever had a slight crush to it from barrel change. They were flat and smooth.

Hobie - Thanks for that info...I would also like to know the life history from the time it left the factory...LOL...Fellow I bought it from could only tell back around the 50's and he was the one that changed the barrel back in the 50's/60's with a surpluss military barrel. Think he said that an octagon barrel was like $14 dollars and the military barrel was half price of that. But I don't remember if he ever said what caliber it was before.

Griff - thanks for the link to leverguns cartridge and chamber dimensions Took a look over there, sure has lots of info.

Mike D - The front sight is slipped over the end of the barrel, pretty typical military style.

Twobit - thanks for the specs here...
25-35 - Shoulder diameter .365 - Neck diameter .330 -Case length 2.043 - O.L. 2.55
30WCF- Shoulder diameter .401 -Neck diameter .343- Case length 2.039 - O.L. 2.53
Diameter of shoulder is definatly smaller.

Well I am thinking if I proceed with returning it back to somewhat origional, Then it looks like a letter is required.
Thanks, SmokenRust

[pokey]

leave her be,
lots of the old ones got to looking like that.
here's my favorite one.

favorite94.JPG

and either 25-35 or 32-40 will have tighter guides.

[smokenrust]

Well fellas, I sent an email to Cody museum and I recieved a call today from Dan. A very pleasant fellow to talk to. He sent me to archives and the gal said that I would have to have a letter to find out the caliber... But if a person has the $150 membership, They could access up to ?40 files on line at no extra charge. ... I don't know anyone that has the membership.
All I wanted to know was what caliber My 1894 left the factory. If it was anything other than 30WCF or 32WS Then I would spend the 60 to find out what build it had when it left the factory.
I guess for the time I am setting the rifle away as is. The oppertunity for the complete barrel assembly also hit the dust. Thanks for all the comments.

[3855]

Here is what Cody Firearms Museum has on the serial number of your rifle:

Win. 1894, SN 132337
SN applied: 11-15-1901
Date into warehouse: 1-6-1902
Type: Rifle
Caliber: 30
Barrel: Octagon
Trigger: Plain
Date shipped: 6-19-1902
Order: 133305


Good shooting,

[smokenrust]

Thank you for the information, 3855,
Off of other scources the serial number was for the year 1898. But Cody records shows the date as serial number applied in 11-15-1901... That alone was interesting.
Then 1 1/2 months later it gets into the warehouse...and five months later is shipped out.
30 caliber rifle..
Just a plain jane... That kind of surprised me being the guides are on the snugg side.
I sure was hoping that it was a 25-35 ...oH WELL.
I will hone the guides enough for the casing to come up through like it were greased and pound some ammo through it to see how she shoots. And probably leave it the way she is

... If she doesn't shoot good, I can maybe find a nice Long octagon barrel like say 32" and chambered in that 25-35 or maybe 7-30 Waters .... now I'm back to dreaming... Guess if I do change the barrel, I suppose the 30WCF or 32spl would be just as good or better if it is a real good barrel that is stamped Winchester on it from the appropriate time period.

3855, I again say 'Thank You', SmokenRust, Jerry

[Malamute]

It's becoming known that the commonly available dates for many early Winchesters are incorrect, by up to a couple years. It's come up on this site several times, the thread should probably be stickied somewhere, or the info filed in the info section. The better dates have come to light in recent years, they come from the polishing room records.

Looking at "The Winchester Book" by Madis, if one looks at his dates (the ones commonly used, and formerly the best available), and the numbers of guns produced in that year, I think they don't add up when I looked at a couple years in the early 1900's. Been a year or so since I looked, after the subject came up a time or two.

Your cartridge guides may have become loose, and have crud packed behind them. It isn't easy to get the screws out, as the heads are inside the frame, and it's difficult to get them tight again if you take them out, but it may be worth checking them.

Barrels can be had. Standard for 1894 rifles was 26", with a few at 24". Mike Hunter can make you one that's new, but looks original (markings, dates, etc) for a price. He does very nice work. Other parts can be had fairly simply. The 26" rifles are nice t shoot. I wouldnt argue about having "just" a 30 WCF rifle in an early 1894. It would be a good, fun shooter, with a noticable increase in performance over the 20" guns. William Iorg has worked with various lengths of rifles/carbines, and done a fair bit of load work. He posts here some, but has many threads over on shooterforum, with some very good info.