Why no lead free bullets in .375?

[Mike D.]

Due to the dearth of bullets in that caliber I can't hunt using either the .38-55 or .38-56 WCF Winchesters down in the CZ. I'm toying with trying some filed down Barnes 235 TSXs in my 1886. It has a very tight .375 bore so those should be perfect. They appear to be the correct length if seated to the top groove, but some will have to be loaded for testing. Less than an 1/8" off the top should suffice for a flat enough nose to be safe in the tube mag. I should be able to wring 2000+ FPS out of them with little strain on the gun. It will be an interesting test that's for sure.

[Griff]

Why the .375 Win. is just a fairly new, now defunct cartridge. Sorta like the various short magnums or ultra short magnums... not that any of THEM came in a super-cool levergun!

[Sixgun]

Mike,
While I'm not advocating "breaking the law", whats the chance of getting caught with lead bullets? Some things make little sense to me and thats one time I would just go ahead and do what I have to do and carry some copper bullets in my pocket, just in case "the man" shows up.

I do know that was common practice here in the East when the Feds made lead shot illegal for waterfowl as steel shot at the time was next to worthless.-----------Sixgun

[cowboykell]

The Feds out my way like to sweep a magnet over our waterfowl to make sure they were hit with steel.

[new pig hunter]

Mike,
a levergunner has been experimenting with modified TSX bullets:
http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/inde ... 010.0.html

Sixgun,
a couple of years ago, while hunting here in Kali, the game warden asked me to unload my .30-06 bolt-action, he wanted to inspect the ammo actually in the rifle. I was using Federal ammo w/ TSX bullets, so I was legal.
The chances of not getting caught .... a very reasonable question, but very location dependent. I didn't want to jeopardize losing my hunting privileges for any period of time at that location so I was careful to use legal ammo. The warden spends a lot of time in the field in that area.

Cheers,

Carl

[Hobie]

The Feds out my way like to sweep a magnet over our waterfowl to make sure they were hit with steel.

How does that work with bismuth?

[El Chivo]

Why no lead free bullets in .375?

Because there are no elephants in California...

About the game wardens, I did see one warden, but he was driving out as I was driving in and didn't stop me. The hunters at the campground told me he checked everybody by asking them if their ammo was expensive or not.

The blasters that have been coming to my favorite trailhead and shooting up the place don't use copper ammo. They have left a few live rounds on the ground and they were regular. Nobody seems to get caught, and I've never been asked.

About violating the law, you probably won't get caught, but I hear you can lose your vehicle if you do. And probably the offending rifle as well. Sure the penalty is a moderate fine ($500?) but if there are clauses and such that let them confiscate your property, you may be in for a world of hurt.

[Mike D.]

I had a friendly San Benito Co Deputy pull in behind me as I was opening the gate and we talked at length about the required bullets in the CZ. He saw the open beer in my truck but didn't say anything about it, either. The road to our place is several miles off hwy and not traveled by many but locals. We have even driven down the road to another ranch with a .50 BMG mounted on the roll bar and didn't draw any special attention. Anyway, the Deputy checked what ammo I had and liked what he saw.

There is a DFG Warden who lives in King City and is death on pig poachers, a serious problem in the Co. He has never come into the ranch to check on us even though he has the gate combo. We are all in compliance, except for the .17s and 22s and those are used only in the back canyons, far from earshot of the road.

[Sixgun]

The Feds out my way like to sweep a magnet over our waterfowl to make sure they were hit with steel.

There's waterfowl (for that matter, water) in North Dakota??



Mike & guys,
I guess it ain't worth the ag getting caught with lead.----------Sixgun

[Mike D.]

I wouldn't even think of it. The fines are serious, as is the potential of losing hunting privileges for some time.

[Leverluver]

I slugged a 375BB for a friend when he found that 375 cast keyholed. It measured .3768. After ordering a mold and sizer of the proper size, it shot great. Point being, even the 375s vary and don't even mention 38-55. Monos are very picky as to fit of bullet to barrel. If the bullet is too small, it is likely not to grip the rifling. If the bullet is too large, pressure can sky rocket. If I were making monos (and I used to), I wouldn't touch the 375 or 38-55 with a 10 foot poll. Custom made ones matched to your specific bore is the only answer but that can be pricey.

[Mike D.]

The bore on my 1907 vintage .38-56 slugs at a tight .375. .375 Barnes Original FNs are very accurate, but not in my 1890 vintage 1886 of the same caliber. That one slugs at a typical .3795. the bore is very shiny and pit free, but I suspect a bit worn. It shoots .380 and .381 bullets excellently. The later one hasn't been shot much because the rifling is very pronounced and is in mint condition.

[JFE]

Woodleigh make a 235gr Hydrostatic (mono) for the 375BB if that helps.

[handirifle]

Mike
I feel your pain. I am the one with the TSX thread ongoing, and the last week or two I have made great strides in accomplishing what I set out to do, and that is making a bullet that will function reliably and safely in the leveraction rifles. The current bullets at coming out at 190gr and ought to take down just about anything you point them at. I will be working on a heavier version (about 240gr) once this is complete. I post my methods as I go, and will answer any and all questions regarding the "how to's". It's not a big secret I am trying to keep.

They are a bit of work, but an evening or two spent making the bullets should provide a season of hunting, unless you hunt a LOT more than I do. Most, if not everything I have done, can be done with simpler and cheaper tools, like a disk sander vs the cut off tool, and a drill press vs the lathe.

In order to use the drill press, you would need to pre make a drilling guide to insure centering the holes in the center of the bullet, as that is the most critical step of the whole process. An off center hole will make an unstable bullet.

I have also explored other bullet types, materials, etc. In a good copper jacket, a bizmuth/tin combo is a LOT easier to make. You have to make sure it is a NEW jacket. I actually tried to get one bullet design certified by the CA F&G that used a jacket that had the lead melted out, and filled with the bizmuth combo. They were very concerned about lead residue left behind and required independant lab testing, which would cost nearly $1,000 total, and was cost prohibitive to me.

Cost wise, in the long run, for me, is the TSX route. However, for many, the jacketed bizmuth will be a viable option. If someone were to get some good jacket forming dies from say, Corbin, you could provide them for the bullet casters to make their own. For them to be legal, it would be best to get the dies, make the jackets and cast them, and have them certified by the state.

I do not believe the state would have many issues IF the jackets used, were new ones. Good luck on your search. One other option that is hopefully soon to come, is Cutting Edge bullets. They are actively working on a lead free bullet for the 375 levergun, theirs are machined bullets, and about $1.50 a pop. Very pricey, again, why I am working on my own. By the way, if you have a disk sander, you can use that to quickly cut the nose off of the Barnes 235gr to make it a flat nosed bullet that will easily function in the Marlin. It will have a little hole in the center, to qualify as a "hollow point" but I doubt it will expand. May not need to on deer shoulder shots though. Oh yes, as an FYI, the F&G position is if it is a modified bullet from Barnes, it is already approved.

Hope this helps a little.

[handirifle]

Check out the last few pages here, http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/32-40 ... pdate.html it has been updated a little more than here. I will update the thread here on Paco's site soon.

[Old Ironsights]

I have a plan/solution for this, but I just can't afford to implement it.

BTW, I'm taking a collection to help me buy a Davenport CNC screw machine...

[Mike D.]

Now, my new .40-82 has had me brow beating Barnes for some .406 TSXs.

[handirifle]

I have a plan/solution for this, but I just can't afford to implement it.

BTW, I'm taking a collection to help me buy a Davenport CNC screw machine...

Yea that's been my thought too, funny how money always seems to be the brick wall.

Mike
I just guess you are on a quest to find all the calibers no one DOES have lead free bullets for. I have no plans for a 40 cal, so I guess you're on your own for that one..

[El Chivo]

Good luck Mike,

I've decided to not bother with leverguns and copper ammo; I have a .243 I can use for hunting in the condor zone.

There are too many issues with lowered powder capacity in medium velocity cartridges, you have your choice between filling beyond the max and worrying about being overpressure, or keeping it safe and having a pedestrian velocity that won't expand properly. I had to reduce my 30-30 load to 2000 fps which makes it a 150 yard gun. Or I can use spire points in my 35 Rem which are 1800 fps at the muzzle and won't expand at all. My best bet would be the XPB bullets in .357 magnum which will expand further out but may lose petals on short shots. These choices all limit me to about 150 yards.

Basically the Barnes bullets are made for the high velocity calibers, shells with enough room for powder even after the reduced capacity. .243 works, 30-06, etc. I'm afraid I've got to stick with lead for my leverguns.

Good news is I can zip down to San Diego County to hunt, and San Bernadino is outside the zone too.

[JFE]

How would a bullet cast out of a bismuth & tin mix work with your laws ?

[handirifle]

El Chivo
You make excellent points and they have crossed my mind many times since I started this project. The fact remains that there are levergun bullets that are non lead, and expand quite well at slower speeds, but unfortunately, not for many calibers.

The testing I just did this afternoon, supports your point about expansion. I tested my loads from speeds of a little over 1200fps to over 2300fps. The bullets barely deformed at the lower speeds and not until I hit the majic 2000fps level did I get a true mushroom, unfortunately.

This does not mean that I will give up, however, it only means I have to come up with a solution. It will, modt likely, not be easy but I think I can do it. For me, the limiting factors are not having unlimited resources, and unlimited knowledge on the subject. I am learning as I go, and learning ow to do it on the cheap. My goal is to be able to tell folks like you, and everyone else exactly how to make bullets you can use that WILL perform as needed. The max velocity, with the all copper bullets, is something I will most likely NOT be able to overcome.

I do have a question for anyone that knows, which would provide greater resistance and be more likely to make a bullet open, water or soft dirt?

JFE
It would pass the laws, BUT if the F&G commission asks you to prove they contain no lead, you have to hire an independant lab to test them. I checked into this, and there is a $50 set up fee, then you have to submit at least 10 rounds to be tested, at $125 each!!!!

They may not REQUIRE you to do this. It's up to their diecretion. I have submitted jacketed bullets with this exact composition, and they want me to test mine, BUT, my jackets were obtained by melting the lead out of a lead core bullet, and refilling with bizmuth/tin mix. It is understandable to me, but I cannot afford to do that.

By the way, El Chivo, I do hunt with other rifles and calibers (308, 30-06), I just want to be able to hunt with the Winchester. For me, this is a want to, not a have to.

[olyinaz]

Mike,

I'm wondering, could a case trimmer be modified to nicely and repeatedly trim off the tip of a TSX bullet?

Oly

[Cliff]

I don't know if it would do any good but contact Corbin. They make bullet swaging equipment which can even make a bullet from tool steel, of course that would require hydralic machine using huge special dies. They used to sell a catalog of customers they have set up to swage different and unusual calibers and such. If you can give them a call. I have always found them very helpful. They might just know who may be able to contact for your wants and desires. Just saying it may be a good thing. ATB

[Tycer]

I do have a question for anyone that knows, which would provide greater resistance and be more likely to make a bullet open, water or soft dirt?

[El Chivo]

By the way, El Chivo, I do hunt with other rifles and calibers (308, 30-06), I just want to be able to hunt with the Winchester. For me, this is a want to, not a have to.

It comes down to bullet design, the petals could be constructed to open at slower speeds, and in fact the XPB bullets do that. I think it's just that the market is mostly for high power cartridges, with spire points and boat-tails, and Barnes' bullet choices reflect that.

The 30-30 offering does expand at medium velocity 1400 fps - note the bigger hollow nose - but unfortunately it extends so far into the 30-30 case that, like I said, I had to reduce my powder charge. It would be fine out to 150 yards but my personal choice is not to limit myself to that since I have a .243.

One thing that is getting tempting is to order a 30-06 barrel for my handirifle, Handirifle, then use that 30-30 bullet with a mild load of 2500 fps or so. I'd be using it like a hot 30-30, and the bullet would always expand. Food for thought.

Another idea is for 35 Rem and the .357 XPB bullet. I made up a dummy and the bullet was too small, you could easily turn it in the neck. Then someone on this site mentioned to neck size the 35 Rem with a .357 die, then use the .357 bullet. That would give me an always-expanding bullet with a fat powder charge behind it. The only question is accuracy of a .357 bullet in a .358 microgroove bore.

Or I could just go out after tiny deer and coyotes with the .243 I have, perfectly adequate.