Anybody Use The RCBS 25-20 Mould?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:28 pm

I have never been so frustrated with a cast bullet like I have with the RCBS 85 gr. plain base for the 25-20. I was getting OK accuracy with the Lyman 70 gr. gas check so I wanted to try the RCBS 86 gr. PB in a quest for better accuracy. So far I tried:

1.) 3 different alloys including pure linotype
2.) 4 different seating depths
3.) Bullseye, Unique, H-110, IMR 4227, Herco, and AA#7 in varying weights that gave velocities from 1000-
1600 fps.
4.) small pistol, small rifle, and small rifle magnum primers
5.) neck sizing and full length sizing
6.) 3 different sizing diameters of the bullets--.257, .258, and .259
7.) TWO different moulds--mine and bullets cast from my buddy Gunny's mould.
I experimented with 2 different rifles and both have perfect bores---A Winchester Model 53 and a Marlin 1894. My buddy Gunny has a Winchester 1892 SRC that also refuses to shoot this bullet. His rifle also has a perfect bore. The Winchesters have 1-12" twist and the marlin has a 1-15" twist.

All loads with the RCBS bullet show signs of slight yawing.

Both rifles slug out at .256-.257

Both rifles shoot the Remington 86 gr. jacketed bullets into near moa at 100 meters----I HATE jacketed bullets

Both rifles are extremely tempermental with cast loads with only the loads that have velocities in the 1350-1600 range showing ANY kind of accuracy and the accuracy is super good---at 50-60 meters. At 100 meters, I am getting 6-10" groups.

As you can see, I "think" I have covered all of the bases except I have yet to try them in a Remington Model 25 that WILL shoot the Lyman 70 gr. gc into 2" at 100 meters. I need a cast bullet for a 25-20 levergun for pistol caliber silhouette.

I've tried all of the rest of the calibers so I am just playing around here. Well? Any experience with this bullet?------------Thanks guys

----------------Sixgun

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:10 pm

Sixgun,
Sorry to hear that it has been a bit of a frustrating journey for you.
I don't have the mold but do have some of the bullets sent to me by "35Remington" on another forum.

I had fairly good luck with a capacity load of H322 (12 grs - 1,584 fps) and small rifle primers (6 1/2 Remingtons).
I have only shot it at 50 yards but had some groups in the 1" range from my '92.

Just about everything one would need to know about reloading the 25-20 here...all 57 pages!
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloa ... aders.html

w30wcf

BenT · Post by **BenT** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:47 pm

I have a Lyman 257 312B mold that I picked but never used. Not sure what weight of bullet it drops. But if you want to give it a try your welcome to it.

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:31 pm

I have the RCBS 25-85-CM bullet mould and have done an extensive amount of testing with it in my 1907 vintage Winchester 1892 octagon barreled rifle. I really like the shape and weight of this bullet and the fact that it does not require a gas check. Like you, I have trouble getting this bullet to fully stabilize. I shoot 5-shot targets at 50 yards, but have not put it on paper at 100 yards simply because the 8x11" targets I use are nearly covered by the front sight so a consistent hold is not possible at that distance.

My best targets have been shot with 2400 powder in the range of 5.5 gr. averaging 1,250 FPS to 6.5 gr. averaging 1,385 FPS. Remington or Federal Small Rifle primers gave best results. Alloy is wheelweights hardened with enough Linotype to give me bullets weighing exactly 85 grains. I size them at .258" using NRA formula 50-50 lube and seat normally in full length sized R-P brass. Dies are RCBS Cowboy, designed for cast lead bullets. Five shot groups are 7/8" which is about as good as I can hold using a sandbag rest under the forearm only. Slight bullet yaw is apparent, but groups are very consistent. I have shot only one silhouette match with this rifle and load, and had no trouble knocking down rams at 100 meters.

Left target is 5.5 gr 2400, right target is 6.0 gr. 2400. Grid is one inch. A slight shift in impact is about the only difference.

SHASTA

Steelbanger · Post by **Steelbanger** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 4:06 am

Hello Sixgun,

How do you feel about aluminum moulds? My friend Ranch Dog has an 80 gr. bullet for the 25-20 that shot pretty good for me before I sold the rifle. The bullet is a gas check style but RD will make some or all of the cavities plain base for a small cost. This is a six cavity mould, designed to tumble lube but I always ran mine through the Lyman sizer. Link: http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/index.p ... ucts_id=33

Good luck, Frank

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:37 am

Gentlemen,
Thank you for your vast knowledge! I believe that Shasta (thanks for the text & pics)

has convinced me that the RCBS design has a "design flaw". This makes 3 people with 4 rifles all having the "yaw issue". I see the same slight yawing in your pics.

Its easy to get tight groups at 50 yards. Elmer Keith always said the true test is at long range. A lot of guys ought to put thier guns on paper at the longer ranges. I was truly amazed how this bullet can print 1 to 2 inches at 50 and expand to 1 foot groups at 100.

I think I can get this bullet to stabilize if I push it with 90 grains of IMR 4350 using a 50 BMG primer! Now, on to the solution--

I'm gonna call RCBS and raise you know what. If I don't get satisfaction I'm gonna smash that new mould into a round lump and mail it to them. First I'll shoot it up a bit with some green tip .223. (when I was little, my mother always said that she never saw anybody as destructive as me and I was only about 5 at the time)

Ben, I'm gonna investigate that mould number and will get back to you---thanks!
Steelbanger and Jack K.--I'll see you boys at the Regionals in July. Be there!!!!

---------Sixgun

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:50 am

Shasta, Nice work!

Sixgun wrote:Gentlemen,
Thank you for your vast knowledge! I believe that Shasta (thanks for the text & pics) has convinced me that the RCBS design has a "design flaw". This makes 3 people with 4 rifles all having the "yaw issue". I see the same slight yawing in your pics.

Its easy to get tight groups at 50 yards. Elmer Keith always said the true test is at long range. A lot of guys ought to put thier guns on paper at the longer ranges. I was truly amazed how this bullet can print 1 to 2 inches at 50 and expand to 1 foot groups at 100.
Sixgun

Sixgun, Hmmmm...... I did not see any yawing with the H322 load at 50y. Sometime in the next week or so I'll try it at 100 yards and report back. At pedestrian velocities, a faster twist barrel would work better.

Sixgun wrote:
I'm gonna call RCBS and raise you know what. If I don't get satisfaction I'm gonna smash that new mould into a round lump and mail it to them. First I'll shoot it up a bit with some green tip .223. (when I was little, my mother always said that she never saw anybody as destructive as me and I was only about 5 at the time)........Sixgun

Yikes

Before you do that, please send it to me so I can make a bunch of bullets with it. It would likely be an excellent lighter weight bullet in the 25-35 with its faster twist barrel.

Sixgun wrote:
Ben, I'm gonna investigate that mould number and will get back to you---thanks!
Steelbanger and Jack K.--I'll see you boys at the Regionals in July. Be there!!!! ---------Sixgun

See 25-20 cast bullet pics below. Why not try the 257420 minus g.c. at around 1,400 f.p.s.(?). That would take down plenty of rams. See you at the Regionals....and don't forget the State Championship in Ridgway in Sept.

It has been written that the Ideal 25720-77 was the most accurate bullet in the 25-20 Winchester.
(The 67 gr version would be great for replicating the 25 Stevens ballistically in the 25-20.)

Since I am fortunate enough to have an early Ideal 25720 mold, I modified several bullets in my lathe.

A brief test at 50 yards shows that the old writings just might be correct (discounting the fouling shot at the left.)

I am looking into having a mold made for the 25720-77.

w30wcf

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:49 am

Sixgun, and assy.
Sounds as if this could be a problem with that bullet and the twist rate. Maybe too much twist? Just a thought.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:03 am

Never used this mold although I did use the Lyman 257420 , Lyman 257312 and the Ranch Dog 258-85GC quite a bit .

I've become sorta anti plain base over the past five years . If I'm not misaken the only plain base mold I own anylonger is the Gould 330 grain HP for the 45-70 and I rarely use it anylonger .

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:12 am

If you really are gonna smash, there is a fellow on Cast Boolits that,resizes and/or reworksmolds to different calibers or hollow points them too. s'posed to be reasonable priced, you may wanna give him a try. Glen Fryxell also talks about him on the LASC site. Todd

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:26 am

I can't seeing the problem being the twist--Winchester--1-12 and Marlin 1-15---as both guns are tack drivers with the Remington 86 gr. jacketed.

Jack, I tried the 257420 without the gas check--it "patterns" at 50 meters. The 257420 has been my most accurate cast bullet but it still does not hold a candle to the Lyman 3118 in the 32-20 which is a 2" bullet in every good 32-20 I have shot it out of. A gun with a perfect bore should do better than 3-5 inches at 100. Tonight, when I get home, I'll post my records of all of the loads---4 index cards worth.

I think I'll just stick those 25-20's in the back of the safe and be done with it. It will nag me for awhile--wait a minute----in fact, its nagging me now so the quest continues.

6 point--Did you ever put that Ranch Dog on paper at 100? What kind of rifle?---------Sixgun

Steelbanger · Post by **Steelbanger** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:29 am

Sixgun,

I thought there were some of the RD bullets somewhere in the house so I searched and found 'em. PM me your address and they are yours - probably 400 or 500 bullets, as cast. I'll pour them in a small flat rate box and get them to you ASAP. You'll have to select the best. As cast they weigh in the 77.5-78 gr. range and are .259 in diameter. After that mould I drew the line on gas checks, nothing smaller that 30 cal for me as it's too hard manipulating tiny bullets with tiny checks to attach. So, you want them?

Frank

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:39 am

Seems like a lot more than just 25 pages to me...

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:07 am

Sixgun wrote:6 point--Did you ever put that Ranch Dog on paper at 100? What kind of rifle?---------Sixgun

The RD bullet did as nicely for me as the Lyman 257312 . Both were capable of 1 1/2" at 100 yards for five shots and typically that was with 5 grains of Unique .

I used both those bullets in 4 rifles .

A circa 1902 Marlin 1894 with a 26" barrel

A circa 1980's Marlin 1894CL with a 22" barrel

A circa 2005 or so Marlin 1894CL with a 22" barrel

A circa 2000 or so Marlin 1894CCL 20" octagon barrel

Shot quite a bit of pistol catridge lever silhouette with either of these bullets in the older 1894CL and the 1894CCL .

I had "intentions" of using one of the two bullets in the 1902 rifle to plunk a deer inside 50 yards with a slightly more stout powder charge . but before I could to that point I had sold of all the 25-20's and 32-20's .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:10 am

Steelbanger wrote: After that mould I drew the line on gas checks, nothing smaller that 30 cal for me as it's too hard manipulating tiny bullets with tiny checks to attach.

You thought the 25 cals were a PITA to work with you shoulda been at my house when I was messing with cast in the little Marlin 1894CL I had in 218 Bee

I did however get it doing well enough to pot a couple squirrels

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 7:22 pm

Ok. First, many thanks to you boys for the knowledgable input.

I downloaded the link that Jack Kort posted and my, I've been doing things a bit wrong. The 25-20 does not play by the rules that, it seems, all of the others do.

I've been using way too much lube in the RCBS. According to the author, (35 Remington) who probably forgot more than I ever knew says just to tumble lube the RCBS. Too much lube collapses the lube grooves during firing and causes flyers. I do find that hard to believe, especially with linotype. Another guy says that instead of liquid alox, you can use Johnsons Paste Wax. mmmmm......lot of smart guys out there

6 Point, You sure have plenty of experience with the 25-20. Your 5 gr. of Unique load is what I use with the little 70 gr. Lyman gc. BTW, I don't think those gas checks are hard to deal with. First, I smack 'em a little with a ball bearing to open them up. I too, loaded the .218 bee with cast a while back and those .22 gas checks are small! I found it easy to load for in my '94 CL. Anyway, back to the 25-20.

'Ya know, just hearing people who have success with a caliber gives me the confidence that something is gonna work, so........Jack Kort/3leggedturtle, wait a month or two before I smash the mould.

Thats a nice selection and text you put up there....thank you!

Steelbanger, I will take you up on your offer if.............there's something I have /do that I can turn you on to at the regionals when we all get together.

PM sent

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:10 pm

Sixgun wrote:6 Point, You sure have plenty of experience with the 25-20. Your 5 gr. of Unique load is what I use with the little 70 gr. Lyman gc.

FWIW I used 5 grains of Unique with the Lyman 257420 , 257312 and the RD bullet in the 25-20 !

I also used 5 grains of Unique in the 32-20 with the Lyman 311419 , Lyman 311316 and the Ranch Dog 313-115GC bullet . And believe it or not all of them shot well enough and had enough butt to knock the pistol cartridge rams over at 100 meters relatively easy . Now granted the two heavy bullets in the 32-20 did the best and the two heavies in the 25-20 . But the 311419 and the 257420 did almost as good a job . Biggest problem I had with the rams at 100 meters was ME .

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 9:18 pm

6 Point,
I love Unique but according to the knowledgable guy from the Marlin forums, the best powders to use are the slower ones like 4198,
RL-7 and the like.

I never had any problems knocking down pistol caliber rams with the 70 gr. in the 25-20. While I don't have my notes handy, I "think" 5 of Unique pushes them about 1700.

Dang! In addition to missing the Timonium show, Harrisburg show, there's also a gun auction I just heard about. Then my buddy from Targetmaster calls me and says he just got in a big load of guns from Colt--the new piston driven 6940 Ar's, double action 1911's, and many one of a kind single actions and other neat stuff.

This time tomorrow night I should be good and broke. Good. I'll forget about those stupid 25-20's.

----------------------Sixgun

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:17 pm

Sixgun wrote:6 Point,
I love Unique but according to the knowledgable guy from the Marlin forums, the best powders to use are the slower ones like 4198,
RL-7 and the like.

I'm not quite certain of whom you make mention . But typically I don't place alotta faith in anything from that area anylonger unless of course it came from a certain bullet designer who two of the molds in question were designed by with the help of my chamber casts and fired shell cases

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:19 pm

Sixgun wrote: I'll forget about those stupid 25-20's. ----------------------Sixgun

Do you happen to have a Winchester Model 65 in 218 Bee ?

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:43 am

6pt-sika wrote:
Sixgun wrote:
Do you happen to have a Winchester Model 65 in 218 Bee ?

I do have a 65 but its in 32-20--one of the last to leave the factory and it looks like it just did so I leave that one alone.

The 218 Bee is in a Marlin CL--I affectionately call it my "Cat Rifle". HAD a Model 43 Winchester in that caliber but like most boltguns, it went away.---------Sixgun

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 9:25 am

The 25wcf has been the most challenging cartridge to get to shoot for me with cast. I have the same RCBS mold you speak of along with the Lyman 65 GC and the RD 85 GC mold. I'm finally getting it to shoot well but don't really go for groups per say but point of aim with a cold dirty barrel. My method is posted on that Marlin forum. I'm thinking this method will also help me when I get back to my 32 wcf's. I have felt your pain.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 2:45 pm

Thanks Marv.

Its is a real stinker. I followed some of Marlin forum's "35 Remington" advice by leaving off the lube in the RCBS (low velocity--1050 fps) this morning and got 3/4" inch group at 50, but...........4" at 100 with slight yawing. I need to up the velocity to my favorite of 1400 with a pb and see how that does.

32-20? ANYTHING shoots good out of that! Its night and day between the 32-20 and the 25-20. My favorite for the 32-20 is the Lyman 115 plain base---its good for 2-3" max at 100 out of a '92 made in 1893. ----------------Sixgun

Steelbanger · Post by **Steelbanger** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:18 pm

Sixgun,

I just read your PM and thanks for the offer. There isn't anything I am in need of right now so please don't feel like you owe me something.

As for my 32-20 I've been mostly shooting a Ranch Dog 115 GC bullet that shows much promise. A buddy who happened to be my mentor has a 4 cavity Lyman 311008 that I am waiting for him to find so I can borrow it. He's in his mid 70's now and I can see how he is changing. Where once there was enthusiasm there is now none. Every time we talk I ask about the mould and he forgets what he's supposed to look for. A once keen mind is slipping away. Sad, very sad.

Now, about those 100 yd. groups opening out of proportion to the 50 yd. groups. I sight my silhouette guns with the aperture sights and I expect the groups to grow as the range increases. Only thing I do is to make the aiming point (target) larger. If my groups at longer ranges would be on the animal then I feel I am good to go.

About those regionals. I didn't plan on going to any of the bigger shoots this year. I could possibly drag my 38-55 to Ridgeway for the state match but that will be determined by how I do at the local matches. I missed the states last year because of the flooding here which means we haven't shot the same match in at least 2 years. You still have that rainbow umbrella with the disclaimer printed on it?

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:04 pm

Sixgun wrote:32-20? ANYTHING shoots good out of that! Its night and day between the 32-20 and the 25-20. My favorite for the 32-20 is the Lyman 115 plain base---its good for 2-3" max at 100 out of a '92 made in 1893. ----------------Sixgun

I had a Saeco plain base I think 110-115 grain mold for the 32-20 for awhile it actually shot just as well as the 311316 or RD 313-115GC but I just prefer GC's over PB .

Talking about all this kinda makes me wish I still had one of the 32-20's and all 3 of the GC molds I used in them LOL's !

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:09 pm

Sixgun wrote:
6pt-sika wrote:
Sixgun wrote:
Do you happen to have a Winchester Model 65 in 218 Bee ?
I do have a 65 but its in 32-20--one of the last to leave the factory and it looks like it just did so I leave that one alone.

The 218 Bee is in a Marlin CL--I affectionately call it my "Cat Rifle". HAD a Model 43 Winchester in that caliber but like most boltguns, it went away.---------Sixgun

The little ole Marlin 1894CL 218 Bee I had came from your part the world !
Got it at a small gunshow right in Dickson City PA , the 25-20 I had in the earlier 1894CL version came from a tiny gunshop close to Hamlin PA called Hemlock Gunshop or something like that !

Also got a NIB Marlin 336D 35 REM from Tanners Gunshop close to Doylestown . One of my buds up there used to do Tanner's stockwork , called me one day and told me they had 5 of them in the back and got me one . Think this was 3 years after they had made the limited run .

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:17 pm

6pt-sika wrote: I had a Saeco plain base I think 110-115 grain mold for the 32-20 for awhile it actually shot just as well as the 311316 or RD 313-115GC but I just prefer GC's over PB .

yes, I will agree. About 90% of my rifle bullet moulds are gas check. There are times that after experimenting that the plain base is more accurate in the velocity range I need---rare, but it does happen.

Most of the time, its in the 1400 range.

I shot those 25-20's again today and the RCBS is junk. I'm gonna take a break from experimenting (until Steelbangers bullets arrive) with cast 25-20. I'm gonna call Buffalo Arms up and get 500 of the Remington 86 jacketed.---------Sixgun

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 5:26 pm

Sixgun wrote: I shot those 25-20's again today and the RCBS is junk. I'm gonna take a break from experimenting (until Steelbangers bullets arrive) with cast 25-20. I'm gonna call Buffalo Arms up and get 500 of the Remington 86 jacketed.---------Sixgun

My same friend from Doylestown that hooked me up with the NIB Marlin 336D also hooked me up with about 300 of the no longer made Remington 80 grain or so HP's for the 25-20 . They shot very nicely in the little 80's circa 1894CL . Think I shot maybe 50 of them and like the rest of my 25-20/32-20 stuff it all went down the road when I sold the rifles .

chadbr · Post by **chadbr** » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:47 pm

FWIW, this place has them way cheaper than anyone else I've seen...

http://www.gunaccessories.com/reloading ... Bullet.asp

Don't know if it's a misprint or they're out of business... But they have 2012 on the page... I'll give it a shot.

Chad

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:27 am

........I'm gonna call Buffalo Arms up and get 500 of the Remington 86 jacketed.--Sixgun

Sixgun,
You may want to try the 75 gr Speer instead. That bullet shoots better than the 86J in my gun. The folks in the 25-20 link have also found that to be true. 2 Master class shooters using the 25-20 use the 75 gr Speer.

w30wcf

Marvin S · Post by **Marvin S** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:44 am

Sixgun wrote:Thanks Marv. Its is a real stinker. I followed some of Marlin forum's "35 Remington" advice by leaving off the lube in the RCBS (low velocity--1050 fps) this morning and got 3/4" inch group at 50, but...........4" at 100 with slight yawing. I need to up the velocity to my favorite of 1400 with a pb and see how that does.

32-20? ANYTHING shoots good out of that! Its night and day between the 32-20 and the 25-20. My favorite for the 32-20 is the Lyman 115 plain base---its good for 2-3" max at 100 out of a '92 made in 1893. ----------------Sixgun

I can not get the longer cast bullets to stabilize at the speeds others seem to. So far my best load is the 85gr RD GC 3.5 gr Win 231 and Rem 6 1/2 prime. Still don't know how it would do at longer ranges but is working good on tree rats.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 6:08 pm

w30wcf wrote:
Sixgun,
You may want to try the 75 gr Speer instead. That bullet shoots better than the 86J in my gun. The folks in the 25-20 link have also found that to be true. 2 Master class shooters using the 25-20 use the 75 gr Speer

Jack,
I really think that Hobie ought to give you a special designation, like "Master Bullet man". On another note, I cannot begin to thank you enough for the Frank Marshall articles. I read two or three every night in bed and have followed his instructions for loading a cast bullet on a no-throat gun. Still learning this cast thing. 40 years and have not mastered it yet--like you have.

On a second note, I was down Tommy's today (Targetmaster) and beings that he is the #1 retail Remington dealer in the country, I posed to him, "If your so hot and well connected, lets see if you can get me a thousand Remington 86 grainers for the 25-20 as hardly anybody else has 'em and the ones who do want over $20 a hundred." I continued, "For that price I can feed my M1-A with 150 Hornady's." He says, "I'll make a call and have them drop shipped to your house fresh from the factory by the end of the week". We will see....we will see.

Gunny is going to try out the Speer 75 grainers this week but I don't have confidence in his ability to shoot small groups. He is always in a hurry. Last week he tested out some 70 gr. Lymans and shot a 20 shot group in about 2 minutes! I says to him, "Where do you think you are, at the Indianapolis Speedway???

Our guns were made at the same time (1924) and have the same barrel condition, along with groove diameter and twist so it will be a close indication if they work. Maybe they will work better if I paint 'em white.

---------Sixgun

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:07 pm

I never was able to find an accurate load for my Model 53 25-50 using plain base bullets. The RCBS gas check bullet with Unique (can't remember the load) was finally the solution for excellent accuracy. I'm of the opinion that unless a fellow gets lucky, a gas check bullet is the way to go with the 25-20.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:57 am

Sixgun,
Thank you for the kind words, but I'm just one of the fellas that likes to shoot cast bullets. I have learned a bit about it since 1974......

Glad to hear that you are enjoying the "Frankly Speaking" stories by Frank Marshall. His "Uncle Will" and the "Viking Queen" among others are interesting characters for sure and Frank sure knows how to tell stories. Hard to believe that it's been about 20 years since he passed on......

Back to the RCBS 86 gr. I loaded some up and shot them at 100 yards yesterday. Alloy was 14 BHN and I just lubed the rear grease groove. Diameter was as cast .260". In my rifle, I seat them to 1.53" oal and don't crimp. (If I seat and crimp in the crimp groove, the nose heavily engraves the rifling. I found they shoot more accurately at the 1.53" oal.)

Powder charge was a capacity load of 12.0/H322 which goes 1,600 f.p.s. with no leading

. After firing a few shots to foul the barrel, thankfully,
7 rounds grouped into 2.66" @ 100

. The bullet holes do show a very slight bit of scuffing.

KirkD,
If the barrel is good, I have found that slower burning powders with plain based bullets (example...H322, H335) do much better than faster burning powders in the accuracy department.

w30wcf

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 9:36 am

w30wcf wrote:
KirkD,
If the barrel is good, I have found that slower burning powders with plain based bullets (example...H322, H335) do much better than faster burning powders in the accuracy department.

My barrel had a little bit of roughness just in front of the chamber and would lead like crazy, so that is probably the main problem. It makes sense that if the barrel is excellent right through that one should be able to use PB bullets.

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Mon Mar 19, 2012 7:00 pm

Sixgun,

With this thread in mind, I took my Winchester 92 .25-20 along to a range session today to check the 100 meter capabilities of the RCBS 25-85-CM bullet loaded as mentioned in my previous post, namely 5.5 gr. 2400, Remington Small Rifle primer, bullet weight 86 grains, sized at .258 with regular 50-50 lube. My target was a standard size Cowboy Lever Action Pistol Cartridge silhouette ram set at the proper 100 meter distance. I shot off my portable shooting bench to help reduce shooter errors.

The rifle is equipped with a Marble's tang sight and a Lyman 1/16" brass bead front sight. At 100 meters my front sight completely covered the top-to-bottom dimension of the ram, but I could see a few inches of target right and left. As you can see in the picture, I got hits with reasonable windage spread but rather scattered vertically. Still, nine out of ten were solid hits, and one shot went low hitting the support stake just below the ram's belly. Group size was 4"x7", and I think with a globe front sight with fine post insert this load could keep all shots on the ram offhand. This is no doubt not as good as a jacketed bullet would perform, but I'm a cast lead guy, and I don't think this is a bad bullet at all for silhouette shooting in my rifle.

SHASTA

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:45 am

KirkD,
I have found that slow burning powders can sometimes give much better results with no leading in rougher barrels.
And......as we know PSB works great as a gas check with faster powders.....

Shasta,
Thank you for the pic. You could try increasing the load to 6.5/2400 (powder back) or 7.0/2400 (chambered from the magazine) which might help the vertical stringing. Both replicate 25-20 factory ballistics.

Or if you have some H322, H335, etc a capacity load should work very well as it has for me.

w30wcf

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:58 am

w30wcf wrote:KirkD,
I have found that slow burning powders can sometimes give much better results with no leading in rougher barrels.
And......as we know PSB works great as a gas check with faster powders.....

Shasta,
Thank you for the pic. You could try increasing the load to 6.5/2400 (powder back) or 7.0/2400 (chambered from the magazine) which might help the vertical stringing. Both replicate 25-20 factory ballistics.

Or if you have some H322, H335, etc a capacity load should work very well as it has for me.

w30wcf

Thats interesting,because I have a 256 WM Contender carbine barrel, that I load with an almost full case of H335 and the Rem 86gr FP bullet. They basically cut a big oblong hole at 100 yards. At 200 yards they would turn themselves inside out when they hit the dirt bank behid the target. My best 5 shot group at 200 was right at 2" center to center. Most groups were around 3" or so. Starting velocity is 2350FPS. I bought 500 when Midway had them for $60 or less per 500. Now I wish I had bought 2-3thousand of them. Have a Lyman single cavity 75gr RN PB bullet forthe 256 and 25/20. Need to get casting some to see how it shoots in them.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:19 am

Shasta,
Thanks for the help.

I see the group on the ram is similar to my best groups---you get most of them "in there" but a couple like to stray. Your load does sound a bit light though. Like you, I am a cast guy as you and I like to shoot as much as possible and shooting jacketed is like throwing money out the window.

Dang it! Just when I was getting over this 25-20 thing, (rifle is back in the back of the safe) you guys have given me new inspiration, so...........its coming back out today.

-------------------------Sixgun

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 9:25 am

OK Jack,
2.66? You never did tell what kind of a 25-20 you are using---model and DOM please...........now!

Seating at 1.53? I was doing better with the bullet seated out so the front band is against the leade.

sized at .260? Thats an excellent idea as my better groups were unsized at .259 but its a pain in the butt to lube up. I don't have patience for the "pan-lube" business and I want to keep the velocities up towards 1500-1600. ( less sight changes )

Whats your thoughts on RL-7?-----------Sixgun

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:22 am

"Thank you for the pic. You could try increasing the load to 6.5/2400 (powder back) or 7.0/2400 (chambered from the magazine) which might help the vertical stringing. Both replicate 25-20 factory ballistics."

w30wcf-
I think the vertical stringing was caused by the fact that I could not see the top or bottom of the target because the front sight bead covered all but the right and left edges. This caused me to be inconsistent with barrel elevation. I've been sore tempted to replace the bead front sight with a globe anyway, so I think it might be worthwhile to do that and run the test again just to see if my excuse holds water! Either way, I want to try your load suggestions.

SHASTA

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:27 am

Sixgun,
It's a '92 Winchester made in '27 but somewhere in its life, someone converted it to .357 magnum

.
So, I had it relined back to .25-20.

It wears a Lyman tang sight.

.260 diameter is the as cast diameter of the bullets that I received from "35Remington". I lube it in a .262" die that I had made. BHN=14.

For this test, I just lubed the back groove and I did not experience any leading with the 12/H322 load.

I have to seat it to 1.53" since if I seat it in the crimp groove, there is noticeable resistance to chambering and heavy engraving of rifling on the nose.

I like RL7 with the g.c. Ranch Dog in capacity loadings (1,900 f.p.s.). I have not tried it yet with the 86 gr plain based bullets (1,500-1,600 f.p.s.) but I plan to in the future. 10 grs. sounds about right.

Hope you have better results in future testing.

w30wcf

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 11:32 am

Shasta,
Yes indeed, that front sight bead is sure big enough on the '92's.
For that reason, I have better luck with a 6 o'clock hold for a more precise aiming point.

With the smaller 1/16" bead on my other Cowboy Silhouette rifles, I do like to put the bead on the target if it's painted a light color. For black targets though, I'm back to aiming at 6 o'clock.....

w30wcf

chadbr · Post by **chadbr** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 3:54 pm

w30wcf wrote:For that reason, I have better luck with a 6 o'clock hold for a more precise aiming point.

w30wcf

That's a new one on me? Care to elaborate?

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:06 pm

chadbr wrote:
w30wcf wrote:For that reason, I have better luck with a 6 o'clock hold for a more precise aiming point.

w30wcf
That's a new one on me? Care to elaborate?

What he is referring to is holding at 6:00 on the bottom of the target so that more of the target is visible to the eye:

SHASTA

chadbr · Post by **chadbr** » Tue Mar 20, 2012 8:20 pm

Shasta wrote:
chadbr wrote:
w30wcf wrote:For that reason, I have better luck with a 6 o'clock hold for a more precise aiming point.

w30wcf
That's a new one on me? Care to elaborate?
What he is referring to is holding at 6:00 on the bottom of the target so that more of the target is visible to the eye:

SHASTA

ahhhh... That's why I like this place. I learn something new almost every day I visit.

Thanks, Chad

Shasta · Post by **Shasta** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:05 pm

Sixgun,

Today I shot ten rounds from my Winchester .25-20 on a cardboard target at 100 meters using the RCBS bullet. Group size was about the same as the one I pictured previously on a steel target, but with the cardboard, I could plainly see bullet yaw in every bullet hole. It's not real bad, but still the RCBS bullet is not stabilized. Guess I'll have to fool around with it some to see if I can make it shoot nice round holes.

SHASTA

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Mar 22, 2012 2:30 pm

Shasta wrote:Sixgun,

Today I shot ten rounds from my Winchester .25-20 on a cardboard target at 100 meters using the RCBS bullet. Group size was about the same as the one I pictured previously on a steel target, but with the cardboard, I could plainly see bullet yaw in every bullet hole. It's not real bad, but still the RCBS bullet is not stabilized. Guess I'll have to fool around with it some to see if I can make it shoot nice round holes.

SHASTA

Shasta,
Yea, I don't like that. Now that makes 4 different people with 7 different rifles who all experience the slight yaw. Bad design. I just got home from work and I'm gonna load up some Ranch Dogs with a healthy dose of a slower powder and see what happens.--Thanks pard!-------Sixgun